Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

It's time to divide things up, in order to stay focused. If you want to continue, we can respond to one point at a time.

You seem to be establishing an elitist Christianity,

If you mean pure and holy religion without transgressions in the body of Christ, then certainly yes.

separating "pure" Christians from "lukewarm Christians." I can undersand separating true Christians from nominal Christians,

Jesus Christ separates good from bad, pure from unclean, hot from lukewarm, wheat from tares.

And, the Lord will surely separate between the two at His judgment seat, when He judges His people.

2Co 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

And so, once again we see it is we that must be accepted of the Lord, not the Lord be accepted by us.

but I don't think your doctrine of Grace and Justification creates the demarcation you're looking for?

I believe I see where we may on the wrong foot. By your references to me personally, you must think I am arguing my own personal and church disciple, as compared to yours. That's not the case. I'm only preaching the Lord's acceptance and rejection of good or bad believers, for His own body on earth.

Personally, neither I nor the church I am a member of, would separate ourselves from a Christian for a single act of trespass and disobedience to God.However, that does not mean the trespasser is accepted of the Lord.

And that goes both ways. Even as a church accepting a bad doer, does not mean the Lord does not reject him, it's the same if a church rejects a doer of righteousness, but the Lord does not.

Luk 6:22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

And so, we see how not only trusting in our faith alone is foolish, but also trusting with others of like faith, does not justify anyone with the Lord. He surely judges us all individually and equally by our works according to His righteousness, not our own:

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Col 3:5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

 

[RBDERRICK]

I hear a lot of the "Sinless Perfection" crowd argue against Freewill,

A lot have no doubt read and heard the gospel of righteousness, but not all repent for His promise of deliverance from lust and sins of the world, and so walk as He walks.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

I hear a lot of the "Sinless Perfection" crowd argue against Freewill,

I don't know of any preachers of righteousness, that preach against free will.

My experience is that only self-justifying sinners preach against freewill. They do so in order to justify their continued disobedience to the Lord. It's the Christianized version of pagan fatalism predetermined by the fates.

Other Christian sinners also preach their continued sinning is inevitable, as by some kind of inherited sin nature, but they don't want it labelled as against freewill to do otherwise.

thinking that only if Christ does it all can we live proper Christianity.

"Only if Christ does it all" is a much abused for ongoing Christian sinners. They cover their refusal to do their part and repent, with a cloke of humility.

Jhn 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head...

Only if Christ is doing all our works by grace through His faith, can any man be accepted of the Father, and inherit the reward of resurrection unto life with God and the Lamb forever.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[RBDERRICK]

For example, saying we weren't saved at Jesus' death seems confused to me?

Nothing confusing about it, I'm sure. It's just complete disagreement with anyone teaching it.

Of course, Jesus justified us, legally, at his death--even before his resurrection.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
I've already quoted this Scripture to you before, and if only by grammar alone, it is enough to correct anyone believing anyone is justified at the cross of His death.

Only 3 days later by His resurrection from the dead, could anyone believe on Him and be born again.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Once again, no man is saved by believing Jesus died on a cross, but only by believing He is risen from the dead.

At the cross of Jesus' death, the only man on earth jsutified with the Father, was His dear Son who knew no sin, and whose faith was in God to rise from the dead:

1 Pe 2:22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

 

[RBDERRICK]

It was his shed blood that bought our redemption.

His shed blood bought our condemnation, as the just wage for crucifying Him. Only by His resurrection does He buy our freedom from lust and sin.

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He was delivered for our offences to be made exceeding offensive, for repentance sake alone, not to be justified thereby.

His natural blood cried out guilty far more so than that of righteous Abel, as well as all the righteous blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

The judgment of shedding innocent blood would come upon all at the cross, where the Lord of the earth's blood was shed unto death. No man would be inmputed righteous and justified by crucifying Jesus Christ.

It's only the sprinkling of His spiritual everlasting blood and resurrection, that cleanses and redeems any man from old lust and sins of the world.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We see that His sprinkling of blood to redeem is only after His resurrection, which is when He brought in His New Covenant by His quickening Spirit.

Rom 10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Until Jesus' resurrection from the dead, there is no NT of Jesus Christ on earth. Nor is any man born again until believing on the preaching of His gospel.

Jhn 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Once again, only the carnal disciples believe Jesus is speaking of His natural flesh and blood, to eat and drink. And until we do drink His blood, we are not redeemed and born again.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

By obedience, we drink His sprinkled blood from on high, not from on the cross.

No man is redeemed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ at His cross, because it is certain no man drinks His natural blood, nor eats His dead flesh.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Heb 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The shed blood of sacrifical bulls and goats remitted the sins of the people in the OT, not the blood of any man sacrificed contrary to the law, and especially not by the illegal murder of the Son and Christ of God.

Jesus's natural blood was shed on the cross, and so His remission of sins is not without shedding of His blood. But unlike the blood of bulls and goats, Jesus' shed blood does not remit sins at the cross. The smiters and crucifiers are not remitted of their sins by His blood shed on their tool of torment, wicked hands, and bodies.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The Scripture states only that Jesus entered into the holies once for all by His blood being shed, not with His shed blood. His shed blood entered into the earth, not into the heavenlies.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He entered into the thoneroom only with His resurrection, so that He entered by His blood being shed unto death. His shed blood was the means of His death, and His death was the means of His resurrection, by which He ascended and entered into the holiest place once for all time.

We also know He did not enter in until after His resurrection, because His body was buried for three days, while He entered into hell to preach.

He also obtained eternal redemption for us from the Father, by His resurrection:

Matthew{28:18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {28:19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {28:20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

And, He alone obtained eternal redemption for us. No man obtained His redemption and salvation until after His resurrection, and the preaching of His gospel of repentance unto salvation.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Redemption and remission shall be by the blood of Christ's resurrection, after offering Himself to God on the cross, where His natural blood was shed into the earth.

 

[RandyK]

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
I've already quoted this Scripture to you before, and if only by grammar alone, it is enough to correct anyone believing anyone is justified at the cross of His death.

Only 3 days later by His resurrection from the dead, could anyone believe on Him and be born again.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Once again, no man is saved by believing Jesus died on a cross, but only by believing He is risen from the dead.

At the cross of Jesus' death, the only man on earth jsutified with the Father, was His dear Son who knew no sin, and whose faith was in God to rise from the dead:

1 Pe 2:22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Obviously, if Jesus had not arisen from the dead on the 3rd day, no amount of believing on Jesus' atoning death would've had any value at all, with respect to obtaining eternal life. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then neither will we.

But it is the mere fact that Jesus' death was an *atonement* indicates that it in itself provided the redemption necessary to participate in a resurrection when, after 3 days, Jesus showed that he would rise 1st.

In other words, Jesus' resurrection was embedded in his death such that his atoning death was already an atonement, implying that Jesus had to rise from the dead 3 days later. Both his death and his resurrection were obviously needed. But the resurrection of Jesus was intrinsically part of his death.

His blood atoned for our sins precisely because it was the blood of Deity, of God become flesh. As such, it was a death by one who could not stay dead.

 

[RandyK]

If you mean pure and holy religion without transgressions in the body of Christ, then certainly yes.

I think my point was that the Church can never be a "sinless" community until the resurrection to immortality. Elitism pretends a super-spirituality that denies its own inherrent carnality and corruption.

Jesus Christ separates good from bad, pure from unclean, hot from lukewarm, wheat from tares.

"Lukewarmness" is a term that is conditioned by its context. Some refer to temporary backsliding, and some refer to a permanent compromise. Permanent compromisers are cast out by God. Those who "slip up" can be salvaged, as we all must be at times.

 

[RandyK]

I don't know of any preachers of righteousness, that preach against free will.

Luther wrote "the Bondage of the Will." In it he argued that unless God predestined us, we could never, in our carnal, selfish state choose Christ. Otherwise, we could save ourselves, he argued.

This is the default position of many Protestants. They think they are saved by Predestination. I don't agree with this. I believe God predestined His People, but I don't think that's the only basis of our Salvation.

He has required that we respond to His call through obedience. And obedience is accepting who He is and choosing to follow Him.

My experience is that only self-justifying sinners preach against freewill. They do so in order to justify their continued disobedience to the Lord. It's the Christianized version of pagan fatalism predetermined by the fates.

That certainly is one of the problems I have with an errant form of Predestination. If Christ alone saved us, apart from our Free Will, then how is anybody responsible for rejecting Him? And we would be justified in living sinful lives if we felt God simply did not call us!

It is important, in my own way of explaining this, that we are saved via a partnership with God. His Word reaches out to us, and we accept it with His help.

It is His reaching out to us with His Word that enables mankind to respond to Him. So nobody has any excuse because God has reached out with His Word to all men.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The "gospel of being saved by Grace Alone and by Faith Alone" is not a Gospel for sinners!

Show me anyone preaching it, that doesn't call themselves sinner. You? You would be the only exception to the rule.

And for that matter, show me anyone preaching it that doesn't proclaim they will sin somce more. As well as declaring all Christians certainly will do the same as they.

From what I've seen and heard, the belief of them being justified by faith alone, is unbelief in anyone on earth repenting and ceasing from sin and disobedience to the Lord God in heaven.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Rom 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

This statement by God shows that Christians are not all the same and 'doing it'.

It is the Protestant standard of relying on Christ's atonement alone for Salvation,

Once again, Christians of all people ought learn the error of trusting in tradition, and not only in Scripture of God.

Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Sola Scripture.

and not living by our own independent works for Salvation.

No man living by their own faith alone, and doing their own works without God, is saved nor justified by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only those repented and living by the faith of Jesus Christ to do His works, are justified with God the Father.

Heb 10:38Now the just shall live by faith:

The just are them living by the faith, not anyone trusting in the faith alone to justify them without works.

We must live *through Christ.* This is not for living the sinful lifestyle,

Exactly. No man sinning against Christ, is living through Christ. Except it be a sinful Christ, not Jesus Christ.

this is the means of our justification living via the righteousness of Christ

True again. By His faith toward God, not by our own faith with sin.

and thereby obtaining his forgiveness along with it.

??? We obtain forgiveness for past sinning, when we repent and confess our sin with godly sorrow.

We only need forgiveness and reconciliation with God, if we sin like any man on earth, and are in need of the Advocate with the Father.

Rom 4:15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Where no law is, there is no transgression. Where no transgression is, there is no need of forgivness.

The doers of the law and word of faith that are justified with the Lord, and walking in the light of the Lord, have no works of darkness in need of forgivness.

 

[RandyK]

Show me anyone preaching it, that doesn't call themselves sinner. You? You would be the only exception to the rule.

I think you've lost the context of this particular conversation? I think you imply that anytime someone in their theology declares that we are sinners he is constructing a rationalization for sin?

From what I've seen and heard, the belief of them being justified by faith alone, is unbelief in anyone on earth repenting and ceasing from sin and disobedience to the Lord God in heaven.

"Faith alone" can indeed be misconstrued, and I can accept that much. But the doctrine itself never intended to rationalize away Sin. It was pointing out that the power motivating our righteousness must come from God. So we must direct our faith towards God, as opposed to our own abilities without God.

But "faith" in its biblical sense is acceptance of the fact that holiness comes from God's Word, which is imparted to us when we accept that Word. So it never means that we "believe" without doing what God's holy Word requires of us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I think my point was that the Church can never be a "sinless" community until the resurrection to immortality. Elitism pretends a super-spirituality that denies its own inherrent carnality and corruption.

What changes at our resurrection that makes us any better than when we were walking in God's will ?

 

[RandyK]

What changes at our resurrection that makes us any better than when we were walking in God's will ?

Nothing at Christ's resurrection did anything more than actuate in history what needed to be done for our own future resurrection.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nothing at Christ's resurrection did anything more than actuate in history what needed to be done for our own future resurrection.

I was asking what changes at OUR resurrection, that makes us any better then when we walked the earth?
If you feel sinlessness is only available after we are dead, what keeps us from being sinless before we die ?

 

[RandyK]

I was asking what changes at OUR resurrection, that makes us any better then when we walked the earth?

Nothing changes at *Christ's resurrection,* but at *our resurrection* we become sinless and immortal.

If you feel sinlessness is only available after we are dead, what keeps us from being sinless before we die ?

The curse of sin is in the book of Genesis. When Man chose to disobey God by partaking of the tree of knowledge it was a choice to live life somewhat separated from God in order to "do our own thing."

This produced in Man a sin nature, which is passed on to our children. This is a unique *spiritual DNA*--not a physical DNA. We are born with a compulsion to resist submitting to God's will, even though God's Spirit helps us to want to do His will, when we allow Him to do that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nothing changes at *Christ's resurrection,*

I didn't ask about Jesus' resurrection.

but at *our resurrection* we become sinless

That is true, if you are referring to our resurrection WITH Christ, from His grave.
Paul writes..."3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)

If we have been "immersed" into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, we can walk as Jesus walked here on earth now.

and immortal.

That will have to wait for our resurrection from our own graves.

The curse of sin is in the book of Genesis. When Man chose to disobey God by partaking of the tree of knowledge it was a choice to live life somewhat separated from God in order to "do our own thing."
This produced in Man a sin nature, which is passed on to our children. This is a unique *spiritual DNA*--not a physical DNA. We are born with a compulsion to resist submitting to God's will, even though God's Spirit helps us to want to do His will, when we allow Him to do that.

Haven' you allowed Him to do that yet ?
If not, what are you waiting for ?

 

[RandyK]

That is true, if you are referring to our resurrection WITH Christ, from His grave.

I have a hard time understand what resurrection you refer to? There's Christ's resurrection, and there's our resurrection, which takes place at Christ's Return. We did not rise from the dead when Christ rose from the dead. I wasn't even born yet when that happened. ;)

Paul writes..."3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)

We weren't raised from the dead at Christ's resurrection. I suppose you're saying that we can now experience a "spiritual resurrection" as such because of his own resurrection?

He rose from the dead and counted that for our own future resurrection. It's like there's now a certificate attached to the gift that he now gives us when we accept his spirit into our lives.

That's what Paul means when he says that we can now walk in newness of life. We not only have his Spirit, but we also have attached to it a certificate that allows us to be considered his permanent children, destined to inherit paradise with him forever.

Obviously, when we choose to follow him and accept his spiritual life into our own lives we can then be like him in terms of righteousness. We cannot be sinless, but we can allow his righteousness to overwhelm our compulsions to sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I have a hard time understand what resurrection you refer to? There's Christ's resurrection, and there's our resurrection, which takes place at Christ's Return. We did not rise from the dead when Christ rose from the dead.

Yes we "did".
If you were baptized into His death and burial, you were also baptized into His resurrection !
It is written..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:5)
Paul writes in Col 3:1..."If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
He isn't writing to dead people.

I wasn't even born yet when that happened. ;)

You were not yet born when Jesus died for our sins either, but that applies now, and to the future.

We weren't raised from the dead at Christ's resurrection.

We were raised from Christ's grave; just as we were crucified with Him and buried with Him.

I suppose you're saying that we can now experience a "spiritual resurrection" as such because of his own resurrection?

As it is indeed a Spiritual event, it is also an actual event.
Our real death with Him.
Our real burial with Him, and our real resurrection with Him.
If it were not real event, Paul would not have written Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

He rose from the dead and counted that for our own future resurrection. It's like there's now a certificate attached to the gift that he now gives us when we accept his spirit into our lives.

If one hasn't been "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", (Rom 6:4), then he has yet to have his past sins washed away by the blood of Christ. (Acts 22:16)
They happen simultaneously.
He has not crucified the old man/"flesh" and been reborn as a new creature/Spirit.

That's what Paul means when he says that we can now walk in newness of life. We not only have his Spirit, but we also have attached to it a certificate that allows us to be considered his permanent children, destined to inherit paradise with him forever.

I can't agree.

Obviously, when we choose to follow him and accept his spiritual life into our own lives we can then be like him in terms of righteousness. We cannot be sinless,

Explain the difference.

but we can allow his righteousness to overwhelm our compulsions to sin.

Had one crucified the old man, and was walking in newness of life, that compulsion would have been history.

 

[RandyK]

Yes we "did".
If you were baptized into His death and burial, you were also baptized into His resurrection !

I respectfully think you're confusing the language. I said we were not raised from the dead when Christ was raised from the dead. I was not even born yet! Don't tell me I was! ;)

Being "baptized into his resurrection" is different from being raised from the dead at his resurrection! You need to get the wording right, if not the theology as well?

It is written..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:5)

This refers to our future resurrection--not to the time when Christ himself was raised from the dead! Again, your language is wrong.

Paul writes in Col 3:1..."If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
He isn't writing to dead people.

Paul is utilizing a kind of literary convention by saying that we are given legal rights to a resurrection via the work at Calvary. In effect we are raised from the dead--not ourselves, but as participants in *his resurrection.*

You were not yet born when Jesus died for our sins either, but that applies now, and to the future.

I know. As I said, Jesus wrote out the certificate on the Cross. That's when the legal work got taken care of.

I wasn't born yet, and neither were you. But what Christ did in his work on the Cross applies to all who choose to embrace him as their Savior.

We were raised from Christ's grave; just as we were crucified with Him and buried with Him.

This is work *he did,* and not us! We benefit from it by receiving the free gift of his Spirit as a recognition that we have accepted him.

That gift enables us to benefit from the legal work that he already did for us. We are not yet raised from the dead, but we have the certificate to show we have rights to it in the future.

We receive Christ's Spirit when we believe in him and accept him as our Lord. But this is as it always has been for men when they embrace God's word to their conscience and answer His call to follow Him alone.

The difference since Christ's death and resurrection is that now when we choose to follow Christ we have the certificate assuring us that we have Eternal Life. We can not only overcome Sin, but we can now view Sin as a defeated foe. When we rise from the dead Sin has no more rights to us in our new bodies.

As it is indeed a Spiritual event, it is also an actual event.
Our real death with Him.
Our real burial with Him, and our real resurrection with Him.

The work was real, but was *his work.* It wasn't *our work.*

We benefit from it, but we did not die on the Cross, and we did not rise from the dead at that time. Paul is using a literary convention to express that we in effect come to benefit from his life when we receive his Spirit. And as such, we benefit from what his life accomplished both on the Cross and in his resurrection.

If it were not real event, Paul would not have written Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

All saints in the past have been able to overcome sin, but uniquely now that Christ has legally redeemed us we can actually view our sins as having been completely defeated.

It is defeated with respect to keeping us from the Tree of Life. But Sin remains with us as long as we live in these mortal bodies.

Sin was legally dealt with on the Cross. But Sin will only be disposed of when we die and are raised to immortality.

If one hasn't been "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", (Rom 6:4), then he has yet to have his past sins washed away by the blood of Christ. (Acts 22:16)
They happen simultaneously.
He has not crucified the old man/"flesh" and been reborn as a new creature/Spirit.

We don't have to have somehow mystically died with Christ and have risen with Christ in order to have the word of God with us, enabling us to overcome sin. And we can legally consider Sin's indictment against us to have been disposed of.

Explain the difference.

Paul's language is not easy to explain. I've tried...

 

[Hopeful 2]

I respectfully think you're confusing the language. I said we were not raised from the dead when Christ was raised from the dead. I was not even born yet! Don't tell me I was! ;)

The date He was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead doesn't matter.
Men from any post resurrection day, can be partakers of His death, burial, and resurrection by their baptism into Him, and them.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)

Being "baptized into his resurrection" is different from being raised from the dead at his resurrection! You need to get the wording right, if not the theology as well?

We have been "immersed" (baptized) into His death, burial and resurrection.
We are allowed to walk in newness of life.
If we died with Him, how is it that you don't think we are raised with Him too ?
I'm guessing that when you write "raised from the dead" your parameters only include the day of judgement.
Expand your scope.
Paul writes..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
He also writes..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12)
That is the perfect before-and-after of the effects of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The destruction of the old man and the resurrection of the new creature !

This (Rom 6:5) refers to our future resurrection--not to the time when Christ himself was raised from the dead! Again, your language is wrong.

No, it doesn't.
I'll reprint Col 2:12..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Paul is utilizing a kind of literary convention by saying that we are given legal rights to a resurrection via the work at Calvary. In effect we are raised from the dead--not ourselves, but as participants in *his resurrection.*

If you think it is just a literary convention and not an actual event, then your old man wasn't really destroyed either, and you are still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
And Col 3:1 doesn't apply to you either..."If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

I know. As I said, Jesus wrote out the certificate on the Cross. That's when the legal work got taken care of.

I don't follow unwritten of dogmas.
Where are these certificates mentioned in scripture ?

I wasn't born yet, and neither were you. But what Christ did in his work on the Cross applies to all who choose to embrace him as their Savior.

I agree, both His death and His resurrection have empowered many to live as God wants us to.
But without faith in the mechanics of our partaking in it, it is just a literary device.

This is work *he did,* and not us! We benefit from it by receiving the free gift of his Spirit as a recognition that we have accepted him.

All we did was have faith that baptism would enable us to take part in the events Jesus endured.

That gift enables us to benefit from the legal work that he already did for us. We are not yet raised from the dead, but we have the certificate to show we have rights to it in the future.

Not the final resurrection.
But we have been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...if we have been baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.

We receive Christ's Spirit when we believe in him and accept him as our Lord.

That is indeed a paraphrase of what we must do to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But this is as it always has been for men when they embrace God's word to their conscience and answer His call to follow Him alone.

I agree.
But it won't work if what we believe are merely literary devices.

The difference since Christ's death and resurrection is that now when we choose to follow Christ we have the certificate assuring us that we have Eternal Life.

If you are referring to the seal of the inheritance, even that can be forfeited.
The only assurance we have is if we remain faithful until the end, we will find our names are in the book of life.

We can not only overcome Sin, but we can now view Sin as a defeated foe. When we rise from the dead Sin has no more rights to us in our new bodies.

Are you a non-sinner ?
After my repentance from sin, and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, I became one.

The work was real, but was *his work.* It wasn't *our work.*

We can only partake in what He has made possible.
The destruction of the old nan, his burial, and our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life were made possible by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

We benefit from it, but we did not die on the Cross, and we did not rise from the dead at that time. Paul is using a literary convention to express that we in effect come to benefit from his life when we receive his Spirit. And as such, we benefit from what his life accomplished both on the Cross and in his resurrection.

If it didn't really happen to you, it didn't happen to you.

All saints in the past have been able to overcome sin, but uniquely now that Christ has legally redeemed us we can actually view our sins as having been completely defeated.

If it didn't really happen for you, it did not happen to you.

It is defeated with respect to keeping us from the Tree of Life. But Sin remains with us as long as we live in these mortal bodies.

Not true.
One real repentance from sin would fix that.

Sin was legally dealt with on the Cross. But Sin will only be disposed of when we die and are raised to immortality.

The destruction of my old man happened many years ago.
My sins were dealt with at my immersion into Christ and into His sanctifying, justifying, atoning blood, on His cross at my baptism into Him.
If you are waiting until the day of judgement, it will be too late.

We don't have to have somehow mystically died with Christ and have risen with Christ in order to have the word of God with us, enabling us to overcome sin.

That is not true.

And we can legally consider Sin's indictment against us to have been disposed of.
Paul's language is not easy to explain. I've tried...

So have I, and I wrote of their actual effects.

 

[RandyK]

The date He was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead doesn't matter.
Men from any post resurrection day, can be partakers of His death, burial, and resurrection by their baptism into Him, and them.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)

We have been "immersed" (baptized) into His death, burial and resurrection.
We are allowed to walk in newness of life.
If we died with Him, how is it that you don't think we are raised with Him too ?
I'm guessing that when you write "raised from the dead" your parameters only include the day of judgement.
Expand your scope.
Paul writes..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
He also writes..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12)
That is the perfect before-and-after of the effects of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The destruction of the old man and the resurrection of the new creature !

No, it doesn't.
I'll reprint Col 2:12..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

If you think it is just a literary convention and not an actual event, then your old man wasn't really destroyed either, and you are still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
And Col 3:1 doesn't apply to you either..."If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

I don't follow unwritten of dogmas.
Where are these certificates mentioned in scripture ?

I agree, both His death and His resurrection have empowered many to live as God wants us to.
But without faith in the mechanics of our partaking in it, it is just a literary device.

All we did was have faith that baptism would enable us to take part in the events Jesus endured.

Not the final resurrection.
But we have been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...if we have been baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.

That is indeed a paraphrase of what we must do to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I agree.
But it won't work if what we believe are merely literary devices.

If you are referring to the seal of the inheritance, even that can be forfeited.
The only assurance we have is if we remain faithful until the end, we will find our names are in the book of life.

Are you a non-sinner ?
After my repentance from sin, and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life, I became one.

We can only partake in what He has made possible.
The destruction of the old nan, his burial, and our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life were made possible by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

If it didn't really happen to you, it didn't happen to you.

If it didn't really happen for you, it did not happen to you.

Not true.
One real repentance from sin would fix that.

The destruction of my old man happened many years ago.
My sins were dealt with at my immersion into Christ and into His sanctifying, justifying, atoning blood, on His cross at my baptism into Him.
If you are waiting until the day of judgement, it will be too late.

That is not true.

So have I, and I wrote of their actual effects.

Suit yourself. I was trying to help you with the *language.* If we get the language wrong, sometimes our theology ends up wrong too, because we try to fit our experience in with the language as we see it. But if the experience doesn't work, then we get discouraged.

But you obviously don't want any help. Fine.

I don't think you understood much of what I was saying. That's okay. Have a nice day.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Stop misrepresenting others' positions. Not a single person in this thread, that I've seen, is saying we are justified by our own faith alone.

You preach being justified by faith alone. Are you saying it's not your faith? Are you saying you don't own it?

If justification by faith alone is not your own faith, then whose faith is it that you preach. Whose faith is it that alone justifies the soul?

Say that it is not your faith, nor do you own it, and I will not say you preach your own faith alone to justify your soul.

I've asked similar questions about your preaching before, that you either missed or refuse to answer. But since you are now personally accusing me of misrepresenting the faith you preach as your own, then you must answer deny it it is your own, and only the faith of another alone.

Then I will accept your word and go on from there. Such as, since it not your own faith alone, that you preach, then whose is it?