Lukewarm believers and faith

[Fish153]

Obedience to God is not an option, if one has turned from sin and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Obedience to God is impossible without God's grace and mercy.
This is what He had written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Were you unaware of the escapes God promised from temptations ?

Hopeful---- I am fully aware that a Christian is to obey God. You asked me if I would heed RBDERRICK'S warning. And I would not because he is teaching heresy. He is teaching that he never sins. That is unbiblical and very proud. Here is a recent statement he made in reply to mine:

Wow---I am at a loss for words. That is complete heresy.

"Certainly to some Christians sinners, that justify their continued sinning by their own faith alone."

He is labeling me a "Christian sinner" because I believe in Justification by faith. Do you not see the pride behind that statement? He sees himself as somehow "above" other "sinning Christians" because he FEELS he no longer sins. If he is married I'd like to ask his wife if she agrees that he no longer sins. She may have a different take on it. But I do seek to obey the Lord and ask His Spirit daily to lead me. I just believe (as the Apostle John stated) "if any man sin WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" (1 John 2:1). It is totally unbiblical to say "I no longer sin". The Bible clearly teaches that we are all sinners. We are saved by the Grace of God----not BY our repentance. He is deeply deceived so no, I would not heed his warnings because they come from false teaching and pride.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It sounds like you are preaching some kind of "sinless perfection" doctrine.

Nonsinning obedience to God. Sons of God begin clean and obedient by repentance from disobedience, and grow with obedience through temptations and trials, even as the Son.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That you no longer sin.

Not disobeying now. No longer disobeying remains to be seen:

Mat 6:34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

If we continue obeying by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Luke 8:15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Heb 10:36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If you believe that you are very deceived. You seem to believe that your receive the gift of God in exchange for repentance.

Salvation is with repentance commanded first by God, before ever preaching the gospel promise of holy life.

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:17} Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? {11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

It's really just a matter of grammatical order for any honest child to read.

in exchange for repentance.

And so, we see even when speaking of repentance and salvation, it's like a shiboleth to some, so that they can never seem to prounounce it right as written, but they must always put some kind of unrealistic twist to it.

Scripture says repentance unto salvation, which is repent to be saved, and salvation with repentance. It's not salvation in exchange for repentance, as though some sort of deal is being cut between equals and merchants.

It's not an exchange, but a command of unconditional surrender to wholly defeated enemies, with the promise is mercy, reconciliation, and friendship.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, UNTO OBEDIENCE and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1: 2)

Repentance is unto salvation and justification. And sanctification is unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood.

There is no sanctification without repentance. And there is no washing of the blood without obedience, and certainly not with disobedience.

No child of the devil disobeying God is sanctified and washed in the blood of the Lamb of God.

He says that election leads to sanctification,

Then this election preached is without sprinking of the blood, which is only with sanctification and obedience.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

If the elect are elected, and are not yet sanctified, but only led to sanctification and obedience, then they are not an elect yet sprinkled with the blood of the Lamb.

We see how the error of preaching a wholly complete salvation, with an incomplete repentance and sanctification, leads also to a lack of sprinkling of the blood.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: ,

The Scripture is not speaking of being elect first, with these things following, but is defining the elect by those things accompanying election:

Heb 6:9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

1Co 1:2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The elect of Jesus Christ are sanctified, not leading towards it. They are also justified, not leading towards it.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The sanctification of Jesus Christ is with washing and justification by the Lord. If the former is incomplete, then so are the latter.

The election, sanctification, obedience, justification, and washing of the blood of Jesus Christ are the altogether and whole promise to them that completely repent of their dead works.

It's the one whole operation of the Spirit of Christ at one time. It's called the circumcision and baptism of Christ.

which then leads to obedience and repentance.

Added in leading to repentance, and took away leading to sprinkling of blood.

2 Peter 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Jesus Christ's gospel command is repentance unto salvation.

2Th 1:6 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Not obeying the gospel begins with not repenting. Unrepented and lukewarm repented sinners still know not God in their continued sins and trespasses.

You think repenting leads to you receiving a gift---

The command of repentance leads to the promise of deliverance.

when Peter says that receiving the gift leads to sanctification and obedience.

And sprinkling of blood. Left that out again, and now wilfully, not by ignorance.

Deu 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

2Co 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

By separating a whole election from an equally complete sanctification, we see that election must needs be also separated from sprinkling of the blood and justification of the Lamb of God.

Your Christianity is backwards from what the real truth of the Gospel is.

My back certainly is to the Christianity of unrepented and lukewarm repenters. I can understand it, but always reject it.

And so long as no confessing Christian challenges me with it, then I neither do I with them.

A truly regenerated person does not believe in Justification by faith and seek to sin as a result.

True. That is why they are not sinning. Only ongoing sinners seek to be justified by faith alone, and not by their sinful works.

The truly regenerated person is CHANGED in heart and so thankful and filled with love for Christ for his GIFT of justification that he turns from sin to Jesus in love---

True again, which is why once again they are thankfully not sinning against Christ.

like the woman who poured perfume on Jesus' feet.

Pouring perfume is a work, not repentance from works.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful---- I am fully aware that a Christian is to obey God. You asked me if I would heed RBDERRICK'S warning. And I would not because he is teaching heresy.

OK. I have stopped following him because he won't admit to being a non-sinner.

He is teaching that he never sins.

That is a surprise to me.

Here is a recent statement he made in reply to mine:
"Certainly to some Christians sinners, that justify their continued sinning by their own faith alone."

He doesn't seem to realize that the term "Christian sinner" is an oxymoron.

He is labeling me a "Christian sinner" because I believe in Justification by faith. Do you not see the pride behind that statement? He sees himself as somehow "above" other "sinning Christians" because he FEELS he no longer sins. If he is married I'd like to ask his wife if she agrees that he no longer sins. She may have a different take on it. But I do seek to obey the Lord and ask His Spirit daily to lead me. I just believe (as the Apostle John stated) "if any man sin WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" (1 John 2:1). It is totally unbiblical to say "I no longer sin". The Bible clearly teaches that we are all sinners. We are saved by the Grace of God----not BY our repentance. He is deeply deceived so no, I would not heed his warnings because they come from false teaching and pride.

What does this teach you...
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

BTW, the "any man" of 1 John 2:1 are they who have yet to turn from sin.
The "we", are they who have !

 

[Free]

Hopeful---- I am fully aware that a Christian is to obey God. You asked me if I would heed RBDERRICK'S warning. And I would not because he is teaching heresy. He is teaching that he never sins. That is unbiblical and very proud. Here is a recent statement he made in reply to mine:


"Certainly to some Christians sinners, that justify their continued sinning by their own faith alone."

He is labeling me a "Christian sinner" because I believe in Justification by faith. Do you not see the pride behind that statement? He sees himself as somehow "above" other "sinning Christians" because he FEELS he no longer sins. If he is married I'd like to ask his wife if she agrees that he no longer sins. She may have a different take on it. But I do seek to obey the Lord and ask His Spirit daily to lead me. I just believe (as the Apostle John stated) "if any man sin WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" (1 John 2:1). It is totally unbiblical to say "I no longer sin". The Bible clearly teaches that we are all sinners. We are saved by the Grace of God----not BY our repentance. He is deeply deceived so no, I would not heed his warnings because they come from false teaching and pride.

Just be aware that Hopeful 2 teaches that if a person sins, then they aren't really saved. It's the heresy of "sinless perfectionism." So, there are two heresies in this thread: works salvation and sinless perfectionism.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Just be aware that Hopeful 2 teaches that if a person sins, then they aren't really saved. It's the heresy of "sinless perfectionism." So, there are two heresies in this thread: works salvation and sinless perfectionism.

You forgot "sin in Christ".
That is the heresy to be aware of.

 

[brother Paul]

Rev
{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Notice in His address to the churches, Jesus only says He knows our works. He never says, I know your faith. That's because the righteous Lord judges our faith only by our works, as in James 2.

Lukewarm faith of lukewarm believers therefore, is known by works, that are neither cold nor hot, neither good nor evil.

Lukewarm works neither do only good, nor only evil, but do both evil and good.

Gen
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The promise of the devil is made when a son sins and disobeys God: to be as a god knowing they are now doing both evil and good.

The Lord's command to the lukewarm doers of both good and evil, is the same to all men everywhere: Get hot and repent from all the sinning and trespassing, and only do His good will on earth.

Lukewarm faith is with lukewarm repentance, that only results in doing both evil and good, more or less.

The lukewarm religion is by the lukewarm faith of only seeking to sin less than before, not to sin no more and only do that which pleases the Father and the Son.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The pure religion of Jesus Christ is only hot to sin not and do His good pleasure. Being hot and alive in Christ Jesus, is keeping ourselves from sinning with the world, by doing His will only.

The faith of lukewarm repenters only seeks to do more good than evil, and sin less. The sinless faith of Jesus Christ is is only for them that repent of all sins and trespasses, so as to only do good for His name's sake.

Yes! Works certainly do not save, but the truly saved WI:LL DO works! The passages are so many I will not list them all but start with Matthew 5:16 AND 25:31-46 but also see Ephesians 2:10 which agrees woth James, Those who only rely on verses 8 and 9 and make faith the gify instead of Salvation argue this point. I believe we shall know them (Romans 8:9) by their fruits. Again...these works do not save (that is God's sovereign choice) butt the saved will do those works God fore-ordained for each of us to do and they can vary for each person

 

[RBDERRICK]

I do not think any of these (3) great Christians (James, Paul or John) thought they had hit a place where they no longer sinned.

Not sinning now, is not assurance of no longer disobeying the Lord.

Mat 6:34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

However, we can be assured of no longer disobeying Him, if we do as He says:

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Of course, Christians preaching against adding anything to their faith, have no more hope than the world to not disobey God. Because with the children of disobedience, they have no faith in always obeying Him.

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
This is why the lukewarm are worse toward Christ than the cold, because the world of sinners don't search the Scriptures for ways to justify their continued disobedience to the Father.

 

[RBDERRICK]

And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2: 1)

If any man sins is a declaration of not now sinning, otherwise Scripture would say as some Christians, when we sin.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2: 1)

It was John's desire that those to whom he wrote did not sin.

It's Christ's commandment to sin not. the aposlte's wish is made known in 2 John.

Jhn 8:11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Ye sin not, is the command. That ye sin not is the cause for God's Scriptures written into the world.

Which is the whole cause for the Son coming in the flesh, and the Lamb of God dying on a cross and rising again from the dead: That ye sin not.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Mat 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The commandment warning from the beginning to sin not, that ye die not, has not changed for any man, if he disobeys the Lord:

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eze 33:14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die;

1Jo 2:6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

"if any man sin,

If any man sin, is not when we sin. And it's not any assurance of Christians sinning, but is Christ's warning to disobedient Christians, that they are as any man sinning on earth.

The warning to any man, and not to Christians alone, makes all disobedience to Christ common to any man sinning against Him, without respect of persons.

If any man sins, includes any man on earth, the Jew, Christian, and Gentile alike. If any Christian sins, he is made himself common with any child of disobedience.

Rather than assuring Christians will sin, and justifying them when they sin, it is a warning to Christians not to make themselves like any man disobeying God.

Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2: 1)

If any man disobeys the Father, then as with all children of disobedience, they have an advocate in Jesus Christ, to repent with godly sorrow and come to Him for mercy and reconciliation with God.

1Jo 2:1 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Advocate and way of propitiation, is for any man that sins, without respect of persons.

Yes---John thought it possible he would sin---

The possibility of disobedience, is not assurance of disobeying.

And if we add to our faith the things commanded by Christ, then we can have His assurance we would not sin.

that is why he writes down 1 John 1:9 "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

This is the hope for disobedient Christians, that if we do sin, we are not cast out from the race forever. But rather if any man sin, then any child of disobedience can come to the Advocate of the Father, Jesus Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But in verse 8 he says that if you say you "have no sin" ("I no longer sin") you are DECEIVED.

This of course is changing the words of Christ, to preach continued disobedience to Christ.

Christ is not decieved when having Peter write to add to our faith, those things that assure we shall not fall.

The assurance of the faith of Jesus Christ, is not to disobey Him, nor is it a promise not to be judged like any man sinning against Him.

BUT---he apparently did not think any of them would hit a place where they never sinned again!

Hooray!! Hip, Hip hooray!! Let's hear it for no place on earth where we do not sin against the Lord!!!

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

Being in the place where we are not sinning, does not ensure we will remain in that holy place in Christ Jesus.

Unless of course, we add to our faith those things commanded by Jesus to ensure we never fall from His obedience.

To actually believe you have come to a place where you never sin is the height of deception.

Coming to a place where you never do not sin, is the low common ground to all the children of disobedience, that repent not.

To actually believe you have come to a place where you never are condemned for disobeying the Lord, is the depths of delusion.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev 2:24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

It can only lead to one thing in the end: PRIDE.

This of course is the unrighteous shooting at the righteous, with false accusation of pride.

Psa 11:2For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

It's also a false humility of declaring they will certainly continue disobeying the Lord unto the end.

Jas 4:6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Humbleness with the Lord is repenting of disobedience, not of making disobedience known for certain.

You will begin to believe you are better than others who have not repented of all sin as you have.

Another false accusation against them that repent with a whole heart, by them that steadfastly remain unrepented or only in part.

It's the Lord that declares His obedient sons better than the children of disobedience, and spits out the lukewarm.

Sam 15:28And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.

You will begin to judge them, and warn them from your pedestal that they had better do as you have!! Be careful!

I judge faith and doctrine, not men.
It's the Lord that judges men by our works, and warns any man that sins to repent to the Advocate Jesus Christ, and be reconciled to God, to His people first and also to all men:

2 Peter{4:17} For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? {4:18} And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is not moral relativism to say that a statement is generally true.

It is when applied to the commandment of the Lord.

Moral relativism begins when truth is acknowledged only in general, only on the whole, but not for certain in every way.

Why do you not teach Jesus Christ is the general way, and the truth on the whole? Because sinners want their salvation to be exactly complete, but their repentance only in gerneral.

They want the salvation, but not the Lordship.

??? What does what you "teach" have to do with my point, which was that there are a variety of reasons why a genuine Christian may not bear good "fruit" spiritually?

A genuine Christian sinner does not obey the Lord to bear all good fruit.

A genuine Christian saint does obey the Lord to bear all good fruit.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

As I've shown you from God's word, there are lots of instances of true Christians who sin.

True. And Paul names a few, and calls them enemies of the cross, that were once ministers of the gospel. James calls them friends of the world and enemies of God.

Jesus calls them heathen and republicans.

Mat 18:17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Jesus was the God-Man, not merely human like you or I.
Merely human is euphemistic prelude to more disobedience to God, and with some naming Christ, more doctrinal moral relativism to justify it.

Humans are the only creatures on earth created in the image of God by Christ the Lord.

Let no man say he is only human, especially not with naming the name of Christ.

As the writer of Hebrews pointed out, Christ was "made perfect" in his obedience to the Father as he perfectly fulfilled the Father's will.

Even as the Son was made perfect in obedience through all trials and temptations, so are His newborn sons and brethren born anew to do the same.

Jas 1:2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Mat 12:48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Only those obeying the Son and the Father are the family of God in the body of Christ. God the Father has no disobedient sons, but only disobedient children in the world.

He was able to do this because he was the God-Man and not just a man.

You mean just a sinner man such as yourself.

We see here more relavance given to being a sinner, than to walking as He walked.

The faith of continued sinners, is unbelief toward doing the righteousnes of God.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The Son was God in the flesh. The resurrected Son is God in the saints.

The sinful men are still children of disobedience.

We don't have the advantage of deity that Christ has, of course.

We see here again that the faith of sinners is unbelief towards God.

2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And so, our obedience to the Father is not perfect.

Of course not. No one that is just another man disobeying God, has any obedience toward God at all.

Confession of guilt does not make one not guilty.

Job 10:14If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

The confession of sin to be forgiven of the Lord, is only with godly sorrow to repent.

This is precisely why we need the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us:

Sinners want to have what you do not want to live. They do not have the Son, because they do not repent to walk as the Son.

Jas 4:3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Jas 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Our own righteousness will never be perfect.

Of course not. Man's own righteousness will never be good nor justified with Christ, because of lust remaining in the heart.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

So long as any man repents not of disobeying God, then their old lust of heart is untaken away by Jesus Christ.

It's the lust of the world in the hearts of disobedient children, that always speaks of continued disobedience, and never speaks of always obeying the Lord.

1Jo 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Every child of God sins at various times,

That's why they are called children of disobedience, not sons of God.

Every child of God sins at various times,

And a truly wonderful message indeed. What hope. What happiness. What a world of delight. All people on earth will continued to disobey God unto the grave.

Lust of the world always speaks of more and more rebellion against the Lord.

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

as Scripture very clearly and repeatedly indicates.

Corrupting Scripture to indicate something else, is not teaching Scripture clearly.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

I didn't say that "some doctrines teach continued sinning in life, without repentance of all sinning for Jesus's sake."

I didn't say all Christians do, but only some.

Do you believe all Christians will continue sinning in life, and say so openly? If yes, then you teach continued sinning in life.

Do you believe in repenting from all sinning for Jesus' sake, and say so openly? If not, then you do not teach repentance of all sinning for Jesus' sake.

Well, as Scripture itself indicates, all that you contend for here is in error. I've already shown you that this is so. Why, then, you respond with just bald contradiction is baffling to me.

Jhn 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

1Jo 4:5 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What does Scripture say? It says the post-Calvary, born-again person interacts with God on a wholly-new basis than that of the OT Jew under the Old Covenant.

True. Especially pertaining to disobeying the risen Lord.

Heb 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

The people of the Lord Jesus Christ that transgress His law, are condemned and punished much greater than His people that transgressed the law written in stone.

Luk 12:48For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

No one is connected to God, or remains connected to Him, on the basis of their obedience to God's commands,

So says the lust of the world speaking for disobedience to God.

The children of disobedience serve the god of this world.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

but they are, instead, brought into God's family and kingdom solely on the basis of their trusting in Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Trusting in a Christ not to judge unrighteousness, is not trusting in the righteous Christ and Lord Jesus to obey the Father.

He is the "new and living way"

Disobeying the righteous God is neither new nor living, but just more of the same old and dead.

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eze 33:14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die;

2 Peter{2:19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

that dissolves the OT system of interaction between men and God by fulfilling it perfectly.

The system of obeying God perfectly is dissolved? Dissolved into what? The system of not obeying God?

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

The covenant went from the blessing of doing righteousness at all times, to a great new blessing of not doing righteousness at times?

So the blood of bulls and goats was more righteous than that of the Lamb of God.

Rom 16:18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

And so, the believer's obedience is merely the by-product of their salvation

The sinful believer's by product is disobedience.

never the means of their salvation,

Since disobedience is before, during, and after their salvation, then disobedience is meant through it all.

Obedience to the righteousness of God, is by means of salvation from sinning by Jesus Christ.

Continued disobedience in unrighteousness, is by means of another salvation with sinning.

 

[RBDERRICK]

as you seem to think. It is because this is so, that we read in Scripture that our deeds have nothing to do with our salvation:

I.e. the things you do in life has nothing to do with your soul.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We see here the testament to salvation by faith alone, that it is nothing but a wish to be justified apart from anything we do.

It's a rejection of Father's judgment of all men's works, and of the Lord's justification by works in Christ Jesus.

The world knows that inward religion separated from how we live, is a spiritual delusion and hypocrisy.

The Christian person becomes wholehearted in their obedience to God as the result of their salvation,

Then why preach certain disobedience after salvation? Where is the whole heartedness in doing good and evil? In spirit only?

Inward purity with outward corruption, is wholeheartedness in spirit, with double-heartedness in works.

made so by the Holy Spirit over time; they don't obtain their salvation by being wholeheartedly obedient to Him.

Wholehearted obedience is with salvation, at the time of salvation, and never without salvation. And yet salvation is not by nor with means of whole hearted obedience?

1 Tim 6:3 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Faith alone produces a doctrine of word-games alone. With, through, also, and for, but never by.

God says by also,

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is why we read in the NT of growth over time in the Christian's life, by which they go from spiritually infantile "milk drinkers"

No one disobeying God is growing in Christ Jesus. The children of disobedience only grow with the milk of another Christ.

who are perennially "laying again the foundation from dead works" (which is a fancy way of saying "repenting of their sin over and over") to spiritually mature

Disobedient religion spiritually matures in the spirit of error.

Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Col 3:5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Spiritual children of disobedience teach repentance of one trangression at a time, but without wrath remaining upon the rest.

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God's commanded repentance is from all transgressions at once, not gradually in part at the children of wrath's own will and pace.

Whole repentance at once is for whole salvation at once.

Why don't them that preach repentance in part, also preach salvation in part?

, adult, "meat eater" believers who are stable in their faith,

Stability with disobedience is comfortable double-heartedness.

free of the need to be constantly repenting of sin because they live in a consistently (though, never perfectly) holy way.

Never perfectly holy way? I.e. imperfect unholy way on more positive note. But not too positive.

Moral relevance is relatively holy, but not really holy. Neither perfectly light not darkness.

{3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

1Co 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

1 Peter But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The never perfectly holy religion of the imperfectly disobedient, preaches a sort of be ye holy, but never holy in all ways.

Must give the hearers a real warm and fuzzy.

By what is spiritual "babyness" characterized?

In the religion of sort of obedient, it's characterized by open disobedience.

Well, as Scripture indicates, by ignorance, instability, carnality and sin.

And so we have the wonderful newbirth of an imperfect spirit: ignorance, instability, carnality, and sin.

So, we see how plainly the lust of the world speaks of their own: The religion of the ignorant, unstable, carnal, and sinful.

A truly beautiful foundation to grow and mature with.

Do these babes know how they are being talked about? Do they get told from the pulpit nicely with baby speech?

So, then, your idea that no true Christians sins is just obviously false.

All true Christian sinners disobey the Lord, even as they all say. I've never doubted their word nor said otherwise.

I say and preach and teach always, All true Christian saints are not disobeying the Lord.

 

[RBDERRICK]

As the Bible plainly shows,

That them in Christ Jesus are whole new creatures with all things of God, inward and outward.

the born-again person is placed in a new spiritual position "in Christ" the moment they are saved.

And whole new life separated from the old sinning and disobedience to God.

But this spiritual position doesn't translate into an instantly perfected practical condition.

Not in another Christ of the world, where the disobeient magically become spiritually pure, while still outwardly corrupt.

New Age Christianity.

It is the project of spiritual maturation, of spiritual growth, to bring the believer's spiritual position and their daily condition closer and closer together. But there will never be, this side of the grave, perfect alignment of these two things.

it's called projecting spiritual growth in faith with disobedience, that does not believe in doing the righteousness of God, but only in have the reward of the righteous.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

As a baby grows, it learns to walk, and enlarges, changes what it eats, what interests it and begins to talk, etc. But, as a baby, it will clamor and complain, poop its pants, barf on others, scream if it doesn't get its way, and carry on in a selfish, messy, noisy manner.

Are the new proselytes to carnal Christianity really preached to like this?

"Ok, All of you fithy babies can officially call yourselves children of God, rather than children of disobedience!"

Hoorray!! Clap clap! Good for us!!

This doesn't mean the baby isn't a human being

Well, at least they're human, I guess.

Oh, I see. This is reminding all proselytes that are still only human, not saints.

"Ok. You can now call yourselves children of God! However, always remember: You're still only human. Isn't that great!"

Hooray! Clap Clap. Good for us!

that will, in time, grow into a mature, self-sufficient, strong adult.

Mature, self-sufficient, strong adults of disobedience. Strong in the faith and doctrine of disobedience unto death.

I preach the gospel and pure religion of Jesus Christ.

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

No, it just means the baby is just at the front end of the continuum of change it will pass through to adulthood.

Continuing to change from more to less disobedience, more or less. A change from old disobedience to a new sort of obedience, sprinkled with disobedience.

Moral Christian relativism in time: Less disobedient that before.

You, though, seem to think the spiritual newborn ought to be carrying on exactly like a spiritual adult

Only in Christ Jesus:

Luk 10:21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Spiritual children of disobedience grow into spiritual adults of disobedience, more or less than before.

The same old lust of the world remains untaken away from the unrepented or lukewarm hearts.

, that the spiritual baby ought to be eating meat, and walking about stably and strongly, as a spiritual adult does, without the stumbling, messy process -

Projection of spiritual maturity with disobedience, is made to look less stumbling and messy than before.

It's called the sinner's fruit show in sight of men.

Matthew{23:5} But all their works they do for to be seen of men:

If we're not doing any works to be justified with God, then we're only doing them to please men.

especially early on - that is an unavoidable part of the growth process.

Disobedience is always unavoidable by the children and adults of disobedience alike. More or less.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But just as it is irrational to expect a human baby to behave as an adult,

I see now. You're talking about babies and adults in the world. Of course sinners of the world can learn to sin responsibly as an adult. Such as kept out of sight of men for decensy's sake.

But, i'm talking about babes and adults in Christ Jesus, no matter their age.

I'm preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the sociology of human beings.

Why are you denying what Scripture so plainly and repeatedly indicates?

I'm not denying what you indicate out of Scripture. I completely agree your religious project, that produces disobedience from child to adult.

Why do you keep denying the pure religion of Jesus Christ I preach from Scripture?

Christians are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. It is the object of their faith,

The objective of the disobedient is to disobey. The Christ object of that faith is not Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is neither the believer's works nor their faith that justifies them but the One in whom they trust: Jesus Christ.

The one in whom the disobedient trust to justify them by faith alone, is not Jesus Christ.

The Old Self is the ultimate source of all a believer's sin

Lust of the world is always the same old source for all disobedient children of men, both believer and unbeliever alike.

It remains untaken away by Jesus Christ, without whole repentance of dead works.

, as Paul explained in Romans 6:6, but this fact doesn't mean the believer is not responsible for their sin. They most certainly are.

True. The Father will go ahead and judge every man by our works, whether any man believes it or not.

Galatians{6:7} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. {6:8} For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

But their sin doesn't fracture or dissolve their relationship to God,

No, not their relationship, but just their fellowship.

Relationship of man with God always remains, whether justified or condemned by Christ.

The soul that sinneth in the name of Christ shall not surely die? Where have I heard that before?

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The oldest lie in the Book.

only their fellowship with Him.

Love that cares more for relationhship of disobedient, than for fellowship in the light. Talk about only loving in spirit. No fellowship? No love lost...

None of the world of disobedience cares about the fellowship of the holy God, but only their relationship with the world against God:

Jas 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Fellowship with the world is enmity with God, not just unfriendliness, and never without relationship.

This is the terrible price the born-again person pays when they sin.

Oh yes. Tut tut. Just terrible. But, hey, what's a little lost fellowship with God on the way to heaven, right?

This is the terrible price the born-again person pays when they sin.

True. It's called bastardizing and forsaking their sonship in righteousness, for fellowship with the world of iniquity.

2Pe 2:14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2Ch 24:2 Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

They aren't, though, condemned to hell by their sin, as the non-believer is;

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear (except them that name my name).
So, believing God is right about disobedience separating us from Him, makes us exempt from being separated from Him, as opposed to them that don't believe Him?

The inquity of believers does not separate from God, as the iniquity of unbelievers does...

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Jesus Christ is not an unjust judge having respect of persons to condemn one and justify another doing the same thing. I reject all hypocrite judges and christs playing favorites and politics in the law.

the sinning Christian doesn't stand under the wrath of God under which the unredeemed person stands (John 3:36).

Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Not all sinning Christians believing in an unjust Christ to justify themselves, while condmening others. Nor do all double hearted Christians make a confortable bed in it for life.

Rom 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

They will be hardened by sin (Hebrews 3:13), yes, and blinded and deafened by it, too, and they cannot enjoy intimate communion with God while caught in sin

Rev 3:17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Par for the lukewarm church, other than the part about not trying to say otherwise.

1Jo 1:3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2Co 4:3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Blind is lost in darkness, not found in light.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

(1 John 1:6), but their adoption into God's family is inviolate, grounded in Christ, as it is (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:31-39; John 10:27-29).

True. No disobedience to the Father stands on the sure foundation and holy ground of Jesus Christ.

This statement here just ignores everything I pointed out from the grammar of the passage.

No, it counters what is pointed out. I don't ignore, but agree or correct.

Writing them off as ignorance doesn't disprove them.

 

[Tenchi]

I'm guessing English isn't your first language. Your understanding of the words and phrases I use, illustrated in your responses to my posts, seems very poor. Repeatedly, you mistake the meaning of the terms I've used (though, perhaps on purpose). And it appears you know very little of basic philosophy and the various logical pitfalls into which the unschooled thinker can step. I say this because your retorts to my posts are riddled with Strawmen, non sequiturs, false dichotomies, equivocations of terms, unfounded assertions, out-of-context interpretations, mistaking simple arguments for simplistic ones, and so on. It's such a tangled mess of fallacies and mishandling of Scripture that it would take an enormous amount of work to address all of it properly - work I've neither an obligation to take up, nor any interest in doing so.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Your understanding of the words and phrases I use,

What's not to understand?

Tenchi said:
free of the need to be constantly repenting of sin because they live in a consistently (though, never perfectly) holy way.

It is the project of spiritual maturation, of spiritual growth, to bring the believer's spiritual position and their daily condition closer and closer together. But there will never be, this side of the grave, perfect alignment of these two things.

You speak plain enough, and I reject it just as plainly.

1Co 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Never doing good at all times, but also do evil, is the commandment of another christ and god of this world, not of Jesus Christ.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Being holy in all things is commanded by the Lord, not by the devil. Doing righteousness at all times is the blessing of the Lord, not a curse from God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

And it appears you know very little of basic philosophy and the various logical pitfalls

Well, why didn't you say you are arguing philosophy about Scripture? I only argue for the Scripture itself.

Col 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Christ calls it one's private intperpretation inserted into Scripture, and preached as Scripture. It's preaching one's own faith alone about Scripture.

I only teach the faith of Jesus Christ toward God in Scripture, not my own faith and philosophic will alone.

Example:
1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

The Scripture simply states that anyone committing sin against Christ, is of the devil.

The philosopher transforms the Scripture into a philosophic commitment to sinning vs the simple act of disobeying Christ.

It's the philosopher's own moral relativism of frequency. "He that committeth sin in general, is of the devil." "He that is committed to sinning on the whole, is of the devil."

And so the pesonal philosophy will be read into all Scriptures pertaining to disobeying the Lord, such as:

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father (on the whole) which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not (in general) the things which I say?

Relative philosophy began on earth with the serpent's deadly promise:

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

One sin of disobedience isn't going to kill you with God.

{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

But it will open your mind and imagination to the higher arts of relative moral philosophy: Man as gods on earth can begin to choose and know what is good and evil for ourselves. We can also become great philosophers and judges of when we are good enough on the whole, and what is too much evil in general, to be justified or condemned of God.

1Co 1:19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is not philosophizing about commandments to lose their clear meaning and warning of any disobedience to God.

Isa 5:20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

And the moral philosopher says? Woe unto them that call too much evil good, and enough good evil.

The angels that sinned, sinned once and fell from the presence of the Lord. Likewise, first Adam and son of God transgressed once and was dead to God.

And the law of sin and death remains for any soul of man disobeying the Lord, the believer first and also the unbeliever.

mistaking simple arguments for simplistic ones, and so on.

2Co 1:12For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

mistaking simple arguments for simplistic ones, and so on.

I.e. "The argument is too complex, to state it so simply..." It's the first rule for the philosophic argument of moral relativism: Make the simple truth more complex, so that nothing is easy to understand:

Jhn 1:5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Philosophers themselves acknowledge philosophy is never comprehesive and clear. Which is the whole point of choosing philosophy over commandment: Afterall, if we don't understand something exactly, how can we possibly do it?

2Co 3:12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Do not all the philosophers handling Scripture conclude by philosophic argument that it is impossible to do good at all times, and that it is not evil to not do good now and then?

The phislopher's gospel is, It's good enough to do good more of the time, and only do evil from time to time.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

illustrated in your responses to my posts, seems very poor. unfounded assertions, out-of-context interpretations,

Until someone shows how, then I'll keep making the same simple responses from Scripture.

It's such a tangled mess of fallacies and mishandling of Scripture that it would take an enormous amount of work to address all of it properly

You don't have show how every response is faulty. Just try picking out one. You can either show the response mistates your position, or that it is not applied reasonably to your point.

You can do the most obvious example to make it easy.

- work I've neither an obligation to take up, nor any interest in doing so.

But, if that's still too much hard work for you to do for once, then nevermind.

If you believe you have already accurately dismantled a response to a point you make, since I've missed it, you can just copy and paste it, and I'll be glad to have a look.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
Paul cannot be speaking of himself at the time, because all Scripture is written only by holy men of God, not by doubleminded sinners.

But the passage actually shows that you're entirely wrong. Just look at it. Paul spoke of himself very plainly and of a situation that was current for him.

2Pe 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Only holy men are writing Scripture for God. Double minded sinners are not holy men and women of God.

Some Christian spiritualists may say they are inwardly, they are not Scripturally.

It makes no sense whatever for Paul to speak of a past circumstance in the present tense.

Common literary tool called historical narrated in the present tense, as well as the narrator speaking in the first tense to show empathy and authority on the subject.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The person speaking of these secret spiritual things of the heart and mind, is the Spirit of Christ. He is the One revealing the hidden thoughts of double hearted men in the first person.

Heb 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

He is not speaking of Himself, but sympathetically of the sincerely double hearted hearers, who know their wretchedness and need of deliverance.

Elsewhere the Holy Spirit speaks with judgment and command of repentance to the wilfully double hearted:

James 4 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Prophets and apostles are only holy pens in the hands of God the Writer of all revelation of Scripture opn earth. The holy apostle Paul did not 'figure out' such things and write them from his own mind, nor did James pronounce judgment by His own will.

It is Jesus Christ that gives Scripture to be written by holy vessels. He does not choose from the many writings of others men, and make a few of them His own to be called Scripture on earth.

It is the carnal mind that reads Scripture as only written by men like themselves, especially as double hearted sinful one.

Why wouldn't he just use the past tense and avoid all confusion,

Because God does not submit to the demands of gainsayers, that don't read all His words honestly, or don't believe them:

Rom 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The chapter begins with this present truth for all saints and holy men of God.

Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

This is the past of every sinner made guilty and dead to God by His good law. Only them that repent of their trasngressions are born again to the wholly new present of saints and holy men in Christ Jesus.

The whole Chapter is not in the present but clearly begins with a complete change from past to present.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

This is the revelation of hidden things by the Spirit, to show certain knowledge and empathy of the man Christ Jesus with them that hear His word of truth, but find themselves in the wretchedness of not doing it, and in need of repentance unto salvation from disobedience.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those disobedient hearers seeking justification for continued, do not hear the conclusion of the matter, that such they are wretched and in need of deliverance. Instead they say they are spiritually saved and justified, and contented to be double hearted unto the grave.

Rev 3:17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:...As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The command of the Lord for self-justifying hearers only, is to repent the same as all delivered saints and holy men of God, anmd they too will know the complete change of difference between past transgressions and present holiness and true righteousness in life.

No, it simply means he, like the rest of us,

So you speak for yourself and other double hearted disobedient hearers.

Do you also go on to call the holy apostle Paul the chiefest of all Christian sinners?

The depths to which some sinners will go to include all Christians in their disobedience, is very deep.

Rev 2:24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

is a sinner saved by grace,

The Spirit is speaking of wretched doublehearted hearers only, after speaking of saved saints and holy men delievered from all their past transgressions by grace.

Any christ claiming double hearted wretched sinners as his own body, is not Jesus Christ.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

and in need at all times to be under the control of the Holy Spirit and thus filled with his life and power.

This is the true gospel of Jesus Christ to all men, that are in need of repenting from all transgressions unto life and power of the Holy Ghost.

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It's not the gospel of having life and power of another Christ by faith alone, without ever needing to repent of all disobedience to the Lord.