Lukewarm believers and faith

[Free]

This is the first time I have ever seen you preach justification by grace through faith, and not justification through faith alone. If you ever have preached it to me, then quote from where you did.

Well, you asked, so here are numerous times, from this thread alone:

Post #219: "Paul's whole point in Gal 1, and elsewhere, is that salvation (justification) is by grace alone, through faith alone. Anything else is a false gospel."

Post #213: "We do good works out of obedience and as evidence of our faith, because a person who has already been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone will automatically desire, through the work of the Spirit upon the heart, to do good works." It's also in my quotes of Gal 3 an Eph 2.

Post #210: "No, eternal life is promised to those who put their faith in Christ, those who are justified by grace alone, through faith alone." It is also in my quote of Titus 3.

Post #190: "Righteous works do not save (justify); it is solely a gift of God's grace, through faith in Christ." It is also in my quote of Titus 3.

Post #170: "And this is exactly what is meant by justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any works." It's also in my quoting of Titus 3 and Rom 3.

Post #169: "Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith, none of which is our own doing. It can’t be more clear." It's also in my quoting of Rom 4 and Eph 2.

Post #167: "Justification—being declared righteous—is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

Post #166: "We are justified (declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

Would you like me to post quotes from other discussions?

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
This is the first time I have ever seen you preach justification by grace through faith, and not justification through faith alone. If you ever have preached it to me, then quote from where you did.

Well, you asked, so here are numerous times, from this thread alone:

Post #219: "Paul's whole point in Gal 1, and elsewhere, is that salvation (justification) is by grace alone, through faith alone. Anything else is a false gospel."

Post #213: "We do good works out of obedience and as evidence of our faith, because a person who has already been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone will automatically desire, through the work of the Spirit upon the heart, to do good works." It's also in my quotes of Gal 3 an Eph 2.

Post #210: "No, eternal life is promised to those who put their faith in Christ, those who are justified by grace alone, through faith alone." It is also in my quote of Titus 3.

Post #190: "Righteous works do not save (justify); it is solely a gift of God's grace, through faith in Christ." It is also in my quote of Titus 3.

Post #170: "And this is exactly what is meant by justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any works." It's also in my quoting of Titus 3 and Rom 3.

Post #169: "Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith, none of which is our own doing. It can’t be more clear." It's also in my quoting of Rom 4 and Eph 2.

Post #167: "Justification—being declared righteous—is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

Post #166: "We are justified (declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

We see in the past, you have only been preaching to me a gospel of justification through faith alone.

Which brings us back to the first question in answer to your accusation, that I misrepresent your past preaching of justification through faith Alone.

Free said:
Stop misrepresenting others' positions. Not a single person in this thread, that I've seen, is saying we are justified by our own faith alone.

Is it not your faith? Do you not have it yourself?

 

[RandyK]

RBDERRICK said:
This is the first time I have ever seen you preach justification by grace through faith, and not justification through faith alone. If you ever have preached it to me, then quote from where you did.


We see in the past, you have only been preaching to me a gospel of justification through faith alone.

Which brings us back to the first question in answer to your accusation, that I misrepresent your past preaching of justification through faith Alone.


Is it not your faith? Do you not have it yourself?

Again, I do not wish to speak for Free, but it seems obvious to me that he is saying "our own faith alone" is not what justifies us. He is not denying that our own faith is our own faith--a truism.

From my perspective, it is needless to say whose faith it is--it is obviously our faith. The point is, rather, that our faith is strictly limited to Christ, which is what makes "Faith Alone" our Justification.

"Faith Alone," as opposed to what? It is faith alone in Christ, as opposed to any other source of Justification. Only Christ provided atonement for Eternal Life. Therefore Justification cannot come from any other source than Christ, and only faith in him provides this Justification.

"Faith Alone" is opposed to any other form of Justification, including operating independent of Christ. What we believe for our forgiveness, and the works that we do must all be inspired by Christ, by meeting the demands of Christ's Word beyond ourselves.

That is Justification by Faith in Christ alone. It is not Faith in any other source. Nor is it the opposite of Faith, which would be Self-Reliance and disregard of anything outside of ourselves, including Christ.

When most of us speak of "Faith Alone" it is a short-cut reference to Faith in Christ, as opposed to Self-Reliance. It is *not* saying that our own faith, irregardless of what our faith is placed in, justifies us!

Nor are we saying that "Faith Alone" references only "faith," as if it doesn't need to have an object. It simply goes without saying that "Faith Alone" is directed at Christ alone.

You are apparently misrepresenting what "Faith Alone" really intends to say and mean. Do you realize that's what you're doing?

"Faith Alone" is intending to mean, at least from my perspective, "Faith in Christ Alone!" That is the explicit and implict application of "Faith" as we are applying that word.

 

[RandyK]

Derrick, I think the problem begins when Christians try to distinguish Christian Works from Christian Justification. Paul may appear to do this, but I don't think he really does.

What he does do is separate Independent Works from Christian Justification. What we do apart from Christ is a form of Legalism, and cannot justify for Eternal Life.

We must be, I feel, always connected to the "vine." So whatever works we do separate from this cord connecting us to Christ is self-inspired, or motivated by our own interests separate from Christ's interests. We must always have a sense of "what would Christ have us to do?" It is the Spirit's constant abiding with us that enables us to know what is acceptable to Christ.

This doesn't mean we don't have freedom and cannot make our own decisions. It just means that we must always stay connected to Christ so that whatever we choose to do is in conformity with his Spirit and consistent with his Word.

So when some Christians say that we're "Justified by Faith and not by Works" they seem to excuse any need to do good works as if all works are inconsequential. But in reality, our works, though not justifying in themselves, are an integral part of our Salvation. Works are in fact part of the "faith" that accepts Christ's Justification!

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

We are not Justified for Salvation by our Christian Works, but our Works do need to be validated as legitimate Christian Works. It is our connection to Christ that gives our Faith meaning. And it is therefore our Faith in Christ that gives our Works validation.

We must simply always remain connected to Christ to be justified in anything we do, in doing works as well as in accepting him as Savior. Even in accepting Christ as Savior we are responding to Christ's Word and therefore participating in him and connecting with him.

And so, it is not just in accepting Christ as Savior that justifies us and validates our Works. But it is also in remaining connected to Christ that validates our Works as done in Christ.

Part of Christ's work of Justification goes beyond his atonement for our sins and extends to our need to participate in what this atonement enables us to do. His Redemption provided for us not just the ability to connect to Christ, but it also provides for our ability to stay connected to him, and to do good works through him.

We do need to be careful with the word "justification" to be clear about what it is. But we also need to be careful to require of us what it means in terms to remaining connected to Christ and doing good works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I think my point was that the Church can never be a "sinless" community until the resurrection to immortality.

Yes, I realized that must be what you are talking about, when accepting bad Christian tares into your assembly.

I am only preaching the body of Christ, that He knows and accepts.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This is where Scripture acknowledges there are tares accepted as members of local churches, but the Lord does not in His body.

The Lord makes clear difference between His wheat and bad tares, as well as between church membership and members of His body on earth. The simple difference being between doers of righteousness vs doers of iniquity.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2nd Timothy makes is clear that membership accepted in a local congregation, does not at all mean it becomes membership into His holy church temple on earth.

Many Christian churches thorughout history, vainly believe and declare accepted membership into their congregation, guarrantees they are accepted by the Lord in heaven.

Psa 1:15 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

I think my point was that the Church can never be a "sinless" community until the resurrection to immortality.

While there has always been some, and at times many sinful children of Israel, as well as and bad members of Christian churches. It's never so in the kingdom of Jesus Christ the righteous.

And there will come a time on earth, when the Lord Jesus Himself will judge His people, and cut off the bad tares from His good wheat, so that all those naming His name are known of Him.

Rom 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This Scripture confirms by prophecy the hope of all the prophets, that the Lord will one day come and sever the unrighteous from the righteous among His people, so that members His congregation on earth will all love Him with a pure heart, and be saved and justified in deed and in truth.

I think my point was that the Church can never be a "sinless" community until the resurrection to immortality.

And the sinful in any church community on earth, will not be resurrected with the saints unto life and reign with God and the Lamb.

Except, they too gladly repent of all their sins and trespasses, for Jesus' mercy and election to His body on earth. They too being made good wheat by the Lord, well likewise be resurrected with His blessed saints.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Elitism pretends a super-spirituality that denies its own inherrent carnality and corruption.

I can agree with your judgement of sinful tares, that also act elitist. Pharisees glorying in their own righteousness certainly qualify.

Mat 23:25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

While many acknowledge supra-holiness of some Christian churches, not many look at the flip side of the same bad coin. Where elitist tares boast of how sinful they are.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
Some even would make the holy apostles of our Lord to be chiefest of sinners, if it would justify their own boasting.

Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

"Lukewarmness" is a term that is conditioned by its context. Some refer to temporary backsliding, and some refer to a permanent compromise. Permanent compromisers are cast out by God. Those who "slip up" can be salvaged, as we all must be at times.

Jesus says it's by works judged neither hot nor cold, nor being all good nor all evil.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
As I said, I don't argue doctrine of Christ from what some churches say, but only by what thus saith the Lord in Scripture of truth.

Some Christians and churches say this, and others say that, which can certainly be true for their own congregations, but what the Lord declares governs over all people without respect of persons.

 

[RandyK]

Yes, I realized that must be what you are talking about, when accepting bad Christian tares into your assembly.

I am only preaching the body of Christ, that He knows and accepts.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This is where Scripture acknowledges there are tares accepted as members of local churches, but the Lord does not in His body.

The Lord makes clear difference between His wheat and bad tares, as well as between church membership and members of His body on earth. The simple difference being between doers of righteousness vs doers of iniquity.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2nd Timothy makes is clear that membership accepted in a local congregation, does not at all mean it becomes membership into His holy church temple on earth.

Many Christian churches thorughout history, vainly believe and declare accepted membership into their congregation, guarrantees they are accepted by the Lord in heaven.

Psa 1:15 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


While there has always been some, and at times many sinful children of Israel, as well as and bad members of Christian churches. It's never so in the kingdom of Jesus Christ the righteous.

And there will come a time on earth, when the Lord Jesus Himself will judge His people, and cut off the bad tares from His good wheat, so that all those naming His name are known of Him.

Rom 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This Scripture confirms by prophecy the hope of all the prophets, that the Lord will one day come and sever the unrighteous from the righteous among His people, so that members His congregation on earth will all love Him with a pure heart, and be saved and justified in deed and in truth.



And the sinful in any church community on earth, will not be resurrected with the saints unto life and reign with God and the Lamb.

Except, they too gladly repent of all their sins and trespasses, for Jesus' mercy and election to His body on earth. They too being made good wheat by the Lord, well likewise be resurrected with His blessed saints.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes, there are "false sheep" in our churches, but I believe God is calling all, and we should expect all kinds to show up in churches. God is the God of all men and women--we should not discriminate.

But you're right. Only true sheep get to heaven.

My personal belief is that many will "get to heaven" who are not fully living for God now. The number who are truly faithful is relatively small, but many more than this will be saved.

False Sheep, however, will not be saved. The criteria for Salvation is a love for Christ and a willingness to submit to his Lordship. Though not all succeed in this in this life, just their willingness to do so will get them there, I believe. Weakness does not prevent people from "getting to heaven."

 

[Free]

RBDERRICK said:
This is the first time I have ever seen you preach justification by grace through faith, and not justification through faith alone. If you ever have preached it to me, then quote from where you did.


We see in the past, you have only been preaching to me a gospel of justification through faith alone.

What do you mean by that? I gave eight previous quotes where I clearly said we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone. That's nine times I have said such in this discussion alone, and I know for a fact that I have said it multiple times in previous discussions with you. It's like you're not even reading what I'm writing.

Which brings us back to the first question in answer to your accusation, that I misrepresent your past preaching of justification through faith Alone.


Is it not your faith? Do you not have it yourself?

You seem to think that it's justification by faith vs. justification by grace vs. justification by works. But, as RandyK correctly pointed out, justification by faith and justification by grace go hand-in-hand; you can't have one without the other. The Bible clearly uses both phrases, as I have sufficiently shown previously, but here it is again:

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (ESV)

In this passage alone Paul uses both phrases which essentially refer to the same act of justification. But, there is a difference. Justification--being declared righteous because of Christ's imputed righteousness--is a work of God's grace alone, it cannot be earned. However, it is to be received by faith in Christ, as opposed to having to or trying to work for it.

And, again, Paul uses both phrases:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
...
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

So, when someone says we are justified by faith alone, they mean we are justified by faith in Christ and his work on the cross. That does not mean we are not justified by grace alone, as an act of God. When someone says we are justified by grace alone, they mean it is an act of God's grace and mercy alone, and that does not mean it isn't to be received by faith. "By faith alone" and "by grace alone" work together and both are opposed to works.

What that all means together is that we are never, ever justified by our works, righteous or otherwise. Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Luther wrote "the Bondage of the Will." In it he argued that unless God predestined us, we could never, in our carnal, selfish state choose Christ. Otherwise, we could save ourselves, he argued.

It's not the bondage of will, but of lust.

2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Ti 2:22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

No one with a heart of lust has any freedom to obey God, because obedience to God must be with a pure heart.

However, all sinners still have power of will to change their deeds. But only Jesus Christ has power to take lust away from the heart. Therefore, any man can repent of dead works for Jesus' sake, and the Spirit of the Lord will freely purge the heart and conscience to obey the living God.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Rom 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Conclusion, all men created in the image of God can choose to do good or bad deeds at any time, but any man having done evil no longer has freedom to do the will of God from a pure heart. Only born sons of God have power from Jesus Christ to do pure and living works justified by God.

Sinners have power of will to change their deeds, but no freedom of will to serve God, because of their bondage to lust in the heart.

Sinners can repent of deeds, but only because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, can men repent and have their hearts circumcised with lust taken away and the conscience purified by the Spirit of the living God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Free said:
Stop misrepresenting others' positions. Not a single person in this thread, that I've seen, is saying we are justified by our own faith alone.

Is it not your faith? Do you not have it for your own self?

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is the default position of many Protestants. They think they are saved by Predestination. I don't agree with this. I believe God predestined His People, but I don't think that's the only basis of our Salvation.

He's predestined His people to be conformed to Christ. He does not predestined who will repent to be His people.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God has predestined what, not who. The only person God has predestined before the foundation of the world, is the Word Jesus Christ to become the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world.

And, God foreknows who, but does not prechoose who. The mystery of foreknowing whithout prechoosing, is found in John 1:1:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Ecc 5:8If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.

Because the one true God is God and the Word, and the Word watches all things coming to pass from on high, then God in the beginning knows all things that shall come to pass.

God in the beginning foreknows all things that shall come to pass, by watching all things come to pass, not by predetermining what shall come to pass.

The only thing predetermined by God, that has and shall come to pass, is the Word coming in the flesh, dying for sins, resurrecting from the dead, and brining in many sons to glory, that repent of sins and trespasses for His sake.

Who the sons are resurrected unto life, and who the wicked are resurrected unto shame and contempt, is preknown by God from the beginning, but not predetermined by Him.

The only Person preknown and prechosen with God in all things come to pass, and that shall come to pass, is Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

There is only one prechosen Lamb of God from the beginning, the man Christ Jesus. There is no bunch of favored little prechosen lambs with Him in the beginning.

 

[RBDERRICK]

He has required that we respond to His call through obedience.

Not without repentance first.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Lukewarm churches shun repentance, and want to go straight to salvation by faith alone. Some of them do preach some repentance, but not from all transgression, and only gradually as their own faith dictates.

While we have liberty in the law of Christ for personal decisions of faith in life, repentance is not an option. Nor is Gods' repantnace only in part repentance, nor only gradually in time.

God is an all or nothing holy and righteous God.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

The good news of Jesus Christ begins with the gracious command to His enemies to repent, whose enemies have no right to mercy whatsoever for crucifying the Son of God in the flesh.

The enemies of God must trust in the Lord Jesus Christ's promise to have mercy, as well as bless us with purging the old lust and sins, that crucify Him to ourselves in the first place.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus Christ commands repentance unto salvation. Another Christ offers salvation without repentance, or unto repentance only in part.

Rev 16:9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

And obedience is accepting who He is and choosing to follow Him.

Obedience to God can only begin with obeying His command to repent from sinning and trespassing against Him.

God is not seeking agreement only, but repentance to do His will

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

This is why the traditional offer to accept Christ is only a cliche, that is not possible for sinners to do. Just accepting who Jesus is, does not recieve Him with power to become sons of God.

The Jesus Christ is both Lord and God, whether anyone accepts it or not. The devils know for certain who He is, and yet their faith, does not justify them.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Free]

Is it not your faith?

It is the believer's faith in Christ.

Do you not have it for your own self?

What do you mean by this?

 

[RBDERRICK]

If Christ alone saved us, apart from our Free Will, then how is anybody responsible for rejecting Him? And we would be justified in living sinful lives if we felt God simply did not call us!

Or, if we believed God does not justify us by our works, and our works can never be justified with God.

Justification by faith alone, justifies the soul while committing iniquity.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Jhn 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Most all false teaching can be discovered as just another one of myriad ways to be doctrinally justified, but not justified by works in deed and in truth.

No such doctrinal cards will be played from the grave, to the consuming God and righteous Judge of all works, without respect to their persons.

People can play whatever doctrine of religion they wish in this life, but not in the next. Only godly living by Jesus Christ is rewarded with blessed resurrection unto life with God and the Lamb.


1 Tim{4:8} For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1 Thess{3:23} [Wherefore] whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

So nobody has any excuse because God has reached out with His Word to all men.

True.
Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

No man has anymore excuse for not repenting of all our transgressions. God commands it, and Jesus Christ has made the way open for any man to do so.

He died for our sins to be repented of, not for our sins to continued, yet unjudged.

People who declare it impossible to repent and cease disobeying the Lord, have no excuse for their unbelief toward God, and do not trust in His blessed promise of mercy and circumcision of Christ from all lust and sins.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

 

[RandyK]

Or, if we believed God does not justify us by our works, and our works can never be justified with God.

There will always be False or Nominal Christians who abuse legitimate biblical doctrines, including Justification by Faith Alone. You are misinterpreting this doctrine by citing only the way False Christians apply it, as an excuse for their wayward Works. But true Christians apply it to show the necessity of dependence upon Christ for everything, for Salvation, as well as for Works.

Faith is the exclusive means of our righteousness because it is only by believing in Christ and thereby trusting in his spiritual gift that we can do anything to please him. This does not mean we are not required to do anything for him. On the contrary, faith demands we lean upon him in order to do things for him.

John 15.4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

This verse is teaching Justification by Faith Alone. The opposite of Faith is not trusting in Christ to do good works. Faith is the necessity of trusting in Christ in order to do good works. Stop using the false version of this doctrine.

We trust in Christ for his atonement, which is our Justification. But we also trust in Christ for our righteousness, which is our Validation. We must not only receive his Justification, but we must validate that we have really received it by repenting of not trusting in him, of doing things our own way on our own. Faith is trusting in him. We repent by choosing to trust in him instead of in ourselves alone.

 

[RandyK]

Not without repentance first.

One obtains Salvation when one obtains Christ. The way to obtain Christ is to repent of going one's own way in order to live only for Christ. That is "Faith Alone," as opposed to trusting in yourself alone.

Repentance means that we choose to live for Christ, including all of our Works. So repentance involves turning from our independent works to works that are inspired by the love and Spirit of Christ, which becomes ours when we make him our Lord.

 

[RandyK]

He's predestined His people to be conformed to Christ. He does not predestined who will repent to be His people....

God has predestined what, not who. The only person God has predestined before the foundation of the world, is the Word Jesus Christ to become the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world.

And, God foreknows who, but does not prechoose who. The mystery of foreknowing whithout prechoosing, is found in John 1:1:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1.1 tells us nothing about predestination of what or who.

God in the beginning foreknows all things that shall come to pass, by watching all things come to pass, not by predetermining what shall come to pass.

Some things God has chosen to be decided by free agents, but only within set parameters. Other things God has predetermined must happen.

The only thing predetermined by God, that has and shall come to pass, is the Word coming in the flesh, dying for sins, resurrecting from the dead, and brining in many sons to glory, that repent of sins and trespasses for His sake.

Not true at all! There are many things God has predetermined must take place, apart from the coming of Christ.

Who the sons are resurrected unto life, and who the wicked are resurrected unto shame and contempt, is preknown by God from the beginning, but not predetermined by Him.

Word play? If God preknows something, then it has been predetermined.

The only Person preknown and prechosen with God in all things come to pass, and that shall come to pass, is Jesus Christ.

I'll not try to oversimplify this subject. It's difficult. But I don't believe you've proven anything either way here. We may have some partial agreement, but I'm not really sure how far our agreement goes?

I don't believe God has predestined Sin or the Lost. But He has in fact predestined human success in some measure. God's Word cannot fail, but it can allow freedom that must be remedied.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is the believer's faith in Christ.

So, it is your faith alone in Christ.

With you, I will always refer to your own faith alone in Christ Jesus, and not just your own faith alone.

 

[RandyK]

It's not the bondage of will, but of lust.

Mostly agree with you. God built into the human will the ability to respond to His Word. However, when men do not *want* to accept God's Word they bring blindness upon themselves and a kind of bondage to their will. They cannot choose for the thing they have rejected in advance. They are in a prison of their own making. It is very much like you said, a bondage to lust, or to covetousness, or to self-desire, or pride.

2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Ti 2:22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

No one with a heart of lust has any freedom to obey God, because obedience to God must be with a pure heart.

However, all sinners still have power of will to change their deeds. But only Jesus Christ has power to take lust away from the heart. Therefore, any man can repent of dead works for Jesus' sake, and the Spirit of the Lord will freely purge the heart and conscience to obey the living God.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Rom 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Conclusion, all men created in the image of God can choose to do good or bad deeds at any time, but any man having done evil no longer has freedom to do the will of God from a pure heart. Only born sons of God have power from Jesus Christ to do pure and living works justified by God.

Sinners have power of will to change their deeds, but no freedom of will to serve God, because of their bondage to lust in the heart.

Sinners can repent of deeds, but only because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, can men repent and have their hearts circumcised with lust taken away and the conscience purified by the Spirit of the living God.

 

[Free]

So, it is your faith alone in Christ. You preach justification by the the believer's own faith alone in Christ Jesus. With you, I'll always in include your faith alone is in Christ Jesus.

That's not the case with every believer preaching faith alone. Some never clarify it is in Jesus Christ alone. Some even captilize their faith with Alone, as some sort of justifying idol to worship.

Some may never clarify, but that is largely because it is simply understood to be the case that it is faith alone in Christ alone and that it is all a work of God's grace alone. Some people just say that we are justified by faith alone as short for justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, by grace alone. Similarly, some just say that we are justified by grace alone as a short form. But, they all mean the same thing.

However, I never preach having faith alone at all, so as to avoid the very appearance of preaching against Scripture, that never speaks of having faith alone, except as being dead.

Right, but that is to confuse justification with sanctification. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Evidence of having been justified are good works, which also sanctify us through obedience to Christ.

Nor do I ever preach being justified by faith, and never by any works, which contradicts being justified by works through the faith that is only in Jesus Christ.

But, it is a very clear teaching of Scripture that no works justify anyone, not even righteous works. I've given the passages many times that prove this to be the case. Remember, in Gal 1 Paul says that anyone who adds works to justification is preaching a false gospel. It's a free gift, so no one can boast; no one can earn their justification, even in part.

I preach we are saved and justified by our faith in Jesus Christ, which is given by God to them that repent. And having the faith of Jesus Christ toward God, is only with well doing, and never with any works of darkness.

By having faith in Jesus Christ, men do good. Doing evil is only by dead faith alone without Christ.

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

I would say that faith and repentance occur at the same time, as far as we're concerned, but that faith actually precedes repentance. That is, God must first work on an unregenerate heart before one can see their need for Christ and repent.