Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

Not exactly. Believers have been and therefore are always reconciled to God;

No one disobeying God is reconciled to God. At least not to that God.

The disobedient world is always reconciled to the god of this world. However, even his justification is conditional with continued disobedience, and never ceasing to sin against the true God and Jesus Christ.

The only way in this life to be assured of fellowship and reconciliation with the true God, is the one way of Jesus Christ in righteousness and true holiness. And we are told we can assure our hearts of faithfully walking therein with Him, by adding His good things to our faith:

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal salvation in this life and the next is only promised to them obeying the Lord in godly living, not for any man disobeying Him in unrighteousness.

1 Tim{4:8} For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Anyone preaching justification of Christ with unrighteous works of the flesh, is preaching another Christ of their own faith alone, not Jesus Christ of the true God.

that is rather the whole point of justification.

The whole point of justification is to be sanctified from dead works, that we be not judged unjustified by works of unrighteousness.

One transgression of Adam judged him unjustified and dead to God.

Deliverance from lust and transgression, with eschewing evil and faithful continuance in well doing, ensures justification and life with God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works are not justified, people are.

Well now. A new one. Or. at least a twist on an old one. Thanks.

Most faith alone preachers separate themselves from their own works, by having their works judged, but not themselves.

Now we see another version of separating oneself from their works by their faith alone: Their works are neither justified nor condmened at all. And so have nothing to do with themselves being justified by their own faith alone.

I suppose this would be the most consistent version of justification by faith alone: No works of any man are justified nor condemned, but only the person is justified by faith, or condemned by unbelief.

No works of man on earth are justified good with God, nor condemned evil.

Works are not justified, people are.

What I do love about Scripture, is that God has foreseen every error and lie twisted from His word, so that He has prewritten every exposure to them.

We already know that the works of man are judged good or evil. However, Christ also shows how the works are either justified with Him or not:

Jas 1:2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Rev 3:2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Only the works made perfect are justified with Jesus Christ, not any imperfect works.

Imperfect works are outwardly good, but with inward lust of heart.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus' Christ's perfecting of His saints is the perfecting of their works, that are first inwardly pure of heart and also outwardly righteous and good.

Of course, imperfect works unjustified with Jesus Christ, also include the lukewarm works of doing both good and evil.

Some even preach their imperfect works by an imperfect gospel of incomplete repentance.

Works are not justified,

I understand your imperfect works are not justified with Jesus Christ.

Only when we repent of all our sins and trespasses, does Jesus Christ take away the old lust of heart, that our works may be justified inwardly and outwardly.

No sinners with lust of heart can do any good works justified with the true God and Jesus Christ. That is why the Lamb of God has come in the flesh, died, and rose again, that He may take away corrupt lusting of heart from any man, that repents of dead works for His sake.

2 Peter 1:3Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

people are.

Not any people with corrupted unjustifiable works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Repentance is more than just repenting of "dead works without Christ." It means to change one's mind

It's a mystery how some people standing on their own faith alone, who do not repent of all their dead works, also seek to claim a repentance of mind, that is somehow justified as being more than repenting of the works themselves.

I guess it's the power of one's own mind and faith alone. The world calls it the power of positive thinking.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Repentance is more than just repenting of "dead works without Christ." It means to change one's mind

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

Repentance from dead works is sufficient for God. It's also necessary to recieve faith toward God and His righteousness.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

RBDERRICK said:
We are imputed rightoeusness without works repented of.

Again, I don't understand what you're saying here.

Being without works, is being without the works we have repented of.

There is only two ways in this life to be without works. First are the babes that have done no works. Then there are babes in Christ Jesus, that repent and cease doing their own works.

Until works are done in Christ Jesus, they are as newborn babes to God without works.

The works that follow are either obedient to the Father and justified with Christ, or are disobedient and condemned with the world.

RBDERRICK said:
Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The justification of God is by the faith of Jesus Christ, not by any works of charity, law, and transgression, that is without the faith of Jesus.


Exactly, which contradicts the statement you just made above that "We are justified by works that need no repentance."

Any works without the faith of Jesus Christ, are not justified with God, and must be repented of.

All works done through the faith of Jesus Christ are good and righteous altogether, and have no need of repentance.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

When we repent of our own dead works by our own faith alone, we recieve the gift of Jesus Christ's righteous faith to only do those things pleasing to God as the Son Himself.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Such living by the faith of Jesus Christ have no need of repentance. God only calls all men to repent of doing evil, not of doing good.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

You were here responding to my statements: "That is at the heart of the gospel and is a clear message of the NT. Any works added to that, whether of the law or good works, is a false gospel."

So, I don't know what you're trying to say with this passage. Quoting Scripture without stating why is often not helpful.

A believer is not helped by Scripture alone? Then they must need the doctrinal filter of faith alone.

Nothing is helpful to them that don't want to understand something simple. You say adding any works to faith is wrong, and Scripture says we must add works to our faith, to ensure we don't fall.

It's understandable however, why those preaching an imperfect gospel of more falling, would not want to understand how not to fall.

Mark{4:12} That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Nor apparently do they even want hear about how not to fall. Afterall, I've repeated the same Scripture for adding works to our faith, every time you preach against adding any works to our faith. And this is the first time you've even acknowledged it.

How does anyone not understand they are preaching against the Scripture commanding us to add works to our faith, by preaching we must not add any works to our faith? Except of course they don't want to hear about any such Scripture, since it's not helpful to their own doctrine of adding no works to their faith and be justified of God...

 

[RBDERRICK]

What do you mean by "perfected"?

Rev 3:2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

What Jesus means by works being perfect with Him, rather than works not being perfect with Him. They are imperfect works unjustified by Him.

They are either works without His faith, and/or good and bad works done in His name.

What do you think it means that "by works was faith made perfect?"

James {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ask Jesus, He's the One writing it.

We're not arguing about what each other thinks, but only what Christ says. You know that, right?

Here is the contradiction. You first state that "Imputed righteousness and justification is first without any works we have done," but then state here that "There is no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing." That is a direct contradiction

There is no contradiction between past old works we have done, and present new works we are doing, but only a clear difference.

People that are sloppy with words in Scripture, also will be sloppy with teaching words of Scripture.

Which is it--are we "imputed righteousness and justification . . . without any works we have done," or is there "no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing"?

Both. Romans 4 is repented newborn babes without any works to account to God.

James 2 is sons growing with present new works of obedience accounted just with Christ.

When a man is born again, all old things of man are forgiven, passed away, and forgotten, as having never been done at all.

When a son is living by faith toward God, all new things are of God and clean, justified, and remembered in heaven, by being done through the Son of God.

Of course. No one is here saying that we trust in our own faith alone.

trusting in the doctrine of faith alone to be justifed by faith alone apart from works, is trusting in one's own faith alone.

It's a sinner's own faith alone, because it's not the faith of Jesus Christ, that justifies the works with God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Again, Paul's point, which he makes repeatedly, is that there was not a single work that Abraham did that justified (saved) him

Jesus Christ in Rom 4 does not contradict Himself in James 2.

Only those excluding James 2 from Romans 4, try to preach a justification by faith alone, apart from any works they are presntly doing, including their unrighteous works of the flesh.

My statement was: "Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was."

Christ never writes of any faith alone, except to condemn it as no good in works and dead to Him.

Only those seeking to jsutify themselves by their own faith alone, seek to write good of having their faith alone apart from doing good.

You're now speaking of things beyond justification, beyond being declared righteous.

Speaking of thoise things continued justified and declared righteous.

No newborn babe remains without works, doing neither good nor evil in this life, except it be stillborn and dead.

The spiritualized fantasy of one's faith standing all alone forever without any works, is an idol among the stars of one's own making.

Oba 1:4Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

Our works are always what we are judged by, not by anyone's faith lifted up on high and alone, set apart from works they do down on earth.

Lev 26:30And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Yes, exactly. That has been my point the whole time, since that is what is meant by "justification by faith alone."

Justification by faith alone is solely meant to justify oneself apart from present works, especially their continued unrighteous deeds.

Justification by Jesus' faith alone, is to only do His righteousness.

Righteous works do not save (justify); it is solely a gift of God's grace, through faith in Christ.

You've preached salvation and justification is solely the gift of God's grace. Now you say righteous works are the gift of God's grace.

I'll accept that: Righteous salvation, jsutification, and works are the gift of God's grace, through the faith of Jesus Christ.

There is not one given by Christ without the other: Without the righteous justification, there is no righteous salvation, and without the righteous works, there is no righteous justification.

Nor is there righteous salvation, justification, and works, without the righteous sanctification by Jesus Christ:

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Of course, which is why I have never once made that claim. Please stick with addressing claims I have made, not those I haven't made.

You do not preach anyone is saved nor justified, while disobeying God nor doing any work of unrighteousness? When doing any such thing, their faith alone does not save nor justify them?

A person is only saved and justified by their faith, if they are obeying God and doing His will?

 

[Free]

RBDERRICK said:
Struggling to overcome temptation and sin, is called the good fight of faith in Jesus Christ.

No, it is the growth of obedient sons sanctified and justified by the Lord.

It is called growing in holiness, which is the process of sanctification.

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
...
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)

1Th 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more.
1Th 4:2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sanctification by Jesus Christ is at once complete from dead works, being without any works of sin and trespass.

Progressive sanctification by lukewarm religion is a never ending process. It only seeks to do less evil than before. It's the moral relativism of lukewarm repentance and sanctification.

Take the whole revelation about sanctification into account, not just the parts that fit your doctrine. Sanctification is spoken of as both an event and a process--believers are first set apart and then grow in holiness.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the promise of His faith toward God to sin no more.

This is a confusing sentence; I don't understand what you're saying.

And doing both good and bad works are evidence of wretched double heartedness, that is in need of deliverance by Jesus Christ.

It's called confessing one's sins, which John told believers to be continually doing, for forgiveness (1 John 1:9).

Preaching a process of sanctification,

Which the Bible states, as I've given above.

is to preach continued times of being unjustified by bad works.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Their gospel of sinners saved by grace alone, and justified through their own faith alone, is only for sinners that certainly believe they will sin again, and yet seek to be justified by that faith when doing so.

Stop misrepresenting others' positions. I've warned you about this before. Not a single person in this thread, that I've seen, is saying we are justified by our own faith alone. I pointed this out in my previous post and yet you still blatantly present this lie. So, it looks like you still sin. You simply are not understanding nor seem willing to even try to understand what others are saying.

We are commanded to be holy; that is our goal, our aim--sinlessness. However, we still do struggle with sin in this life. But, as we grow in holiness, the process of sanctification, we desire to stop sinning and fight against temptation with the Spirit's help. We sin less, and when we do sin, we feel immediate conviction and turn and confess to God.

 

[Free]

No one disobeying God is reconciled to God. At least not to that God.

You keep sinning, so does that mean you aren't reconciled to God?

The only way in this life to be assured of fellowship and reconciliation with the true God, is the one way of Jesus Christ in righteousness and true holiness. And we are told we can assure our hearts of faithfully walking therein with Him, by adding His good things to our faith:



Eternal salvation in this life and the next is only promised to them obeying the Lord in godly living,

No, eternal life is promised to those who put their faith in Christ, those who are justified by grace alone, through faith alone. Obedience is evidence that one is saved.

not for any man disobeying Him in unrighteousness.

Not for anyone who has not put their faith in Christ and for those who think they need to do good works in order to be justified.

Anyone preaching justification of Christ with unrighteous works of the flesh, is preaching another Christ of their own faith alone, not Jesus Christ of the true God.

And so is anyone who preaches justification by righteous works.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

The whole point of justification is to be sanctified from dead works, that we be not judged unjustified by works of unrighteousness.

What are the biblical definitions of "justification"? I have asked numerous times and you have yet to give any definitions. This is absolutely central to this whole discussion.

Deliverance from lust and transgression, with eschewing evil and faithful continuance in well doing, ensures justification and life with God.

A person is justified when Christ's righteousness is imputed to them. That is the point of salvation, after which comes sanctification and then glorification. Righteous works are evidence that a person is justified (saved) and going to spend eternity with God.

Well now. A new one. Or. at least a twist on an old one. Thanks.

Most faith alone preachers separate themselves from their own works, by having their works judged, but not themselves.

Now we see another version of separating oneself from their works by their faith alone: Their works are neither justified nor condmened at all. And so have nothing to do with themselves being justified by their own faith alone.

I suppose this would be the most consistent version of justification by faith alone: No works of any man are justified nor condemned, but only the person is justified by faith, or condemned by unbelief.

No works of man on earth are justified good with God, nor condemned evil.

This has been an ongoing problem with your posts, which I was trying to correct. You are using biblical terms in a way the Bible doesn't even use them, and it causes significant confusion. Post just one verse, just one, that says works themselves are either justified or not justified.

What I do love about Scripture, is that God has foreseen every error and lie twisted from His word, so that He has prewritten every exposure to them.

We already know that the works of man are judged good or evil. However, Christ also shows how the works are either justified with Him or not:

Jas 1:2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Rev 3:2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Only the works made perfect are justified with Jesus Christ, not any imperfect works.

Imperfect works are outwardly good, but with inward lust of heart.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus' Christ's perfecting of His saints is the perfecting of their works, that are first inwardly pure of heart and also outwardly righteous and good.

Of course, imperfect works unjustified with Jesus Christ, also include the lukewarm works of doing both good and evil.

Again, you are continuing to use "justified" in a way the Bible never does, that I have seen, by applying it to works themselves. People are either justified or not justified, not works.

I understand your imperfect works are not justified with Jesus Christ.

Again, your misuse of "justified" makes things very confusing.

Only when we repent of all our sins and trespasses, does Jesus Christ take away the old lust of heart, that our works may be justified inwardly and outwardly.

No sinners with lust of heart can do any good works justified with the true God and Jesus Christ. That is why the Lamb of God has come in the flesh, died, and rose again, that He may take away corrupt lusting of heart from any man, that repents of dead works for His sake.

2 Peter 1:3Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Not any people with corrupted unjustifiable works.

And, again. Your entire post doesn't make much sense because of your misuse of biblical terminology.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This, too, is willful ignorance, of all languages. Most words have more than one meaning; some of them have many meanings.

But no single word has different meanings from each other.

What I have been saying is not "my gospel" nor "my faith."

Since you disown it, why should anyone else own it.

Rom 2:16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

The gospel I preach is my gospel from the Scriptures preaching Paul's gospel, which is given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and to all that believe and obey His gospel.

The gospel you preach is not my gospel. Not the way you preach it.

It is taught by every Christian denomination and church,

No doubt all the Christians and churches you want to be part of.

But not me, nor all churches naming Christ.

Again, your willful ignorance is holding you back from understanding properly what the Bible teaches.

I have no willing ignorance to the Bible, nor to what any man teaches from the Bible. I only have wilfull rejection of what some teach as Bible, and I say is not.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
However, as God certainly says in all Scripture, in the end the righteous Lord will go right ahead judge us all by our works, not by our own personal beliefs in ourselves alone.


Of course, but, once again, that is not something I nor anyone else in this thread has been teaching.

Do you preach in the judgment of works, that no man is saved nor justified by their faith alone, if their works are judged unrighteous to God?

No one doing unrighteousness is ever declared righteous by their faith alone?

 

[Free]

It's a mystery how some people standing on their own faith alone, who do not repent of all their dead works, also seek to claim a repentance of mind, that is somehow justified as being more than repenting of the works themselves.

I guess it's the power of one's own mind and faith alone. The world calls it the power of positive thinking.

Again, stop misrepresenting what others are saying. This will be your last chance or you'll be banned from this discussion. And, while you're at it, please, go do some serious Bible study instead of merely proof-texting; actually learn the definitions of the words the Bible uses. "Repent," metanoeite, literally means to change one's mind.

When we repent of our own dead works by our own faith alone, we recieve the gift of Jesus Christ's righteous faith to only do those things pleasing to God as the Son Himself.

Now you're contradicting yourself again--"When we repent of our own dead works by our own faith alone, we recieve the gift of Jesus Christ's righteous faith." Now you're saying that we are to repent "by our own faith alone" in order to "receive the gift of Jesus Christ's righteous faith."

It seems that you don't even know what you believe. Maybe that's why you don't even know what others believe, even when they tell you.

A believer is not helped by Scripture alone? Then they must need the doctrinal filter of faith alone.

Nothing is helpful to them that don't want to understand something simple.

Please reread what I wrote. You responded to what I said with a verse for which I can see no relation to what I said. Don't blame others when there is a significant lack of clarity in your posts.

You say adding any works to faith is wrong, and Scripture says we must add works to our faith, to ensure we don't fall.

It's understandable however, why those preaching an imperfect gospel of more falling, would not want to understand how not to fall.

Mark{4:12} That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Nor apparently do they even want hear about how not to fall. Afterall, I've repeated the same Scripture for adding works to our faith, every time you preach against adding any works to our faith. And this is the first time you've even acknowledged it.

How does anyone not understand they are preaching against the Scripture commanding us to add works to our faith, by preaching we must not add any works to our faith? Except of course they don't want to hear about any such Scripture, since it's not helpful to their own doctrine of adding no works to their faith and be justified of God...

No, I have never said that "adding works to faith is wrong." How many times do I have to ask that you at least try to understand what others are saying and that you stop misrepresenting them? You are understanding neither me nor Scripture, and this is a fairly clear issue.

Good works never justify anyone. Ever. We do good works out of obedience and as evidence of our faith, because a person who has already been justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone will automatically desire, through the work of the Spirit upon the heart, to do good works.

James {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ask Jesus, He's the One writing it.

We're not arguing about what each other thinks, but only what Christ says. You know that, right?

I'm asking you. You're presuming a certain interpretation of those words, so simply saying that "only what Christ says" is what matters, actually doesn't show that you even know what is being said. It is all the more important with the amount of things you haven't understood throughout this discussion.

There is no contradiction between past old works we have done, and present new works we are doing, but only a clear difference.

No, it is a contradiction. You first stated that "Imputed righteousness and justification is first without any works we have done," but then stated that "There is no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing."

In other words, in your second statement, you are saying that there are good works we must do in order to have righteousness imputed and to be justified by God. That contradicts the first statement.

People that are sloppy with words in Scripture, also will be sloppy with teaching words of Scripture.

Which is precisely what you've been doing.

Both. Romans 4 is repented newborn babes without any works to account to God.

James 2 is sons growing with present new works of obedience accounted just with Christ.

Please show precisely where and how such a supposed distinction is made.

trusting in the doctrine of faith alone to be justifed by faith alone apart from works, is trusting in one's own faith alone.

No, there is no "trusting in one's own faith alone." No one here is teaching that.

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

It cannot be more clear that we are justified apart from works, good or otherwise. If we are justified by good works, then Christ's death and resurrection were insufficient, hence why Paul says that is another gospel and that one who teaches that good works are necessary for justification is to be considered accursed. (Gal 1:6-9).

It's a sinner's own faith alone, because it's not the faith of Jesus Christ, that justifies the works with God.

Again, where are works ever said to be justified? This is exactly this: "People that are sloppy with words in Scripture, also will be sloppy with teaching words of Scripture."

Jesus Christ in Rom 4 does not contradict Himself in James 2.

Only those excluding James 2 from Romans 4, try to preach a justification by faith alone, apart from any works they are presntly doing, including their unrighteous works of the flesh.

Of course there is no contradiction between Romans 4 and James 2, biblically speaking, but your unwillingness to do proper study on the definitions of "justification" is causing a contradiction. The problem is with your theology, not the Bible.

 

[RBDERRICK]

To declare Christ and to choose to believe in Christ is to accept Christ. And to accept who Christ is is accepting him as Lord.

This is philosophy, not Scripture.

Believing and obeying Christ is accepting him.

More carnal reasoning, not Scripture.

When asked for Scripture, Scripture needs to be given.

I've given the Scriptures that we must be accepted by the Lord. You've only given given your own personal argument, that the Lord needs to be accepted by you.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

He needs to be accepted,

The Lord doesn't need you, neither to be accepted by you, nor to be chosen by you.

We must become acceptable to Him, not He to us.

That is the condition upon which God accepts us.

God doesn't accept us, because we accept Him. He only accepts and chooses them that repent of sinning against Him.

Many are called to repentance, but only a few repent and are chosen of Him.

You sound like a Predestinarian in some ways.

Not in any way. No man is predestined nor prechosen of God, except they repent of sinning against God for Jesus' sake.

Well, I'm a Predestinarian but I don't define "acceptance" out of belief and obedience. To me, they are the same.

So, this may be why you think the Lord God must be accepted by you. You think you were already chosen by Him before the world began, and it's just a matter of you accepting the inevitable, or some such...

While it's true that we can't love until He loves us 1st, it is equally true that He loved us 1st so that we can accept His love.

We do not choose no accept the victorious King to be our Lord, He only chooses and accepts them that acceptably repent at His command.

That is what we do when we choose to follow Him.

We freely choose to follow Him, only after He chooses to accept us into His service.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works themselves are not justified, people are.

So finally we have it: Works are not judged. Therefore, people can only judged by their faith alone.

It's the necessary conlcusion of being judged righteous or unrighteous by one's faith alone, that so far has been left unsaid.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Being judged by one's personal faith alone, is being judged with respect of the person, and not objectively by our works. It's the rejection of the Bible truth, that the world of unrepentant sinners does not want to believe.

And since the true God and Father does judge us by our works, then if He doesn't judge our works, then He doesn't judge anyone.

Also, since Jesus Christ does not judge with respect of persons, then if He does not judge someone by their works, then He cannot judge anyone by their works, and once again He cannot judge anyone.

By their own faith alone, some people want to believe in a Christ of their own, that does not judge their works, nor themselves by their works, but only want their Christ to judge others by their works.

That of course is not Jesus Christ the righteous, nor the righteous Judge and Father.

 

[RandyK]

This is philosophy, not Scripture.

No, I'm just arguing that a choice to follow Christ is "accepting him."

More carnal reasoning, not Scripture.

What makes drawing logical conclusions "carnal?"

When asked for Scripture, Scripture needs to be given.

I've given the Scriptures that we must be accepted by the Lord. You've only given given your own personal argument, that the Lord needs to be accepted by you.

No, sometimes one simply needs to understand principles of the English language. Believing means "to accept." If Scriptures call for us to "believe in Christ" the principles of the English language indicate we are being asked to "accept Christ."

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


The Lord doesn't need you, neither to be accepted by you, nor to be chosen by you.

On the contrary, God through Moses laid out in front of Israel this:
"Choose whom you will serve." God proposes we make a choice. Then we make our choice. That choice is an "acceptance," ie we can "choose God."

We must become acceptable to Him, not He to us.

This is going much farther than what I said. I said we "accept God." We "choose God." I said nothing about our need to make God "acceptable to us."

God doesn't accept us, because we accept Him. He only accepts and chooses them that repent of sinning against Him.

What we are told is that God will embrace us when we embrace Him. He reaches out to us, proposing that we accept Him. When we comply and accept Him, we benefit from that. In accepting Him we are adopted by Him.

Many are called to repentance, but only a few repent and are chosen of Him.

True.

Not in any way. No man is predestined nor prechosen of God, except they repent of sinning against God for Jesus' sake.

Predestined or not, my point was that we do accept God. God proposes we accept Him, and we can either comply or not. I personally believe the Bible teaches Predestination. You can believe as you wish.

So, this may be why you think the Lord God must be accepted by you. You think you were already chosen by Him before the world began, and it's just a matter of you accepting the inevitable, or some such...

That wasn't my argument. I do believe God's original plan must be fulfilled. The lost was a result of tampering with God's original plan. That's my personal opinion.

We do not choose no accept the victorious King to be our Lord, He only chooses and accepts them that acceptably repent at His command.

No, both can be true. He can choose us, and we can choose Him, as I see it.

We freely choose to follow Him, only after He chooses to accept us into His service.

Again, He can choose us 1st, and afterwards we can indeed choose to follow Him. That is "accepting Him."

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works themselves are not justified, people are.

I.e. works are not judged, only people are. And people are only judged by their faith alone, not by works.

In order to avoid the conclusion that works are not judged, if works are not justified, then we must say justification is not with judgment. And so the conclusion is the same, but only worse: Not only are works not judged, but neither are people judged, if justification is by faith alone without judgment.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

This Scripture specifically condemns anyone believing their faith alone justifies them, as though God will not judge all people objectively and equally by works: God must accept their persons by their faith alone.

It's the world's nonjudgmentalism, where a person's beliefs must be respected by all, including by any God: Works cannot be judged, but only what one believes matters.

It's the oldest lying promise in the Book: By works you shall not surely die, but like God, only what you believe will matter. You will be as gods justified solely by your faith alone, not by anything you do.

It's Lucifer's accusation against God being a personal tyrant over His creatures. He does not judge His own works, but only what He believes and says at the time matters:

"But Captain you said..." "I don't care what I told you before! I'm telling you!" (James Cagney in Mr Roberts)

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works themselves are not justified, people are.

I believe this is the key to opening the whole Pandora's box of justification by faith alone. It states what every faith alone teacher wants to leave unsaid: The person and their works are separate from one another. The tree is not known by it's fruit. The person is not what they are doing, but is something entirely different within.

"I know I still do bad things, but that's not really who I am. I am really a good person iniside." It's not what we do that counts, but only what we believe about ourselves."

This is the modern liberal nonjudgmentalism that is at the root of believing and teaching justification by faith alone: The person is justified by their faith alone, not by their works, because only the person is justified or condemned, not the works.

Therefore, they confess their own works are not justified with God. All their works are unjustified.

And in order to justify themselves, they believe and preach that no man's works are ever justified with God in heaven, including the works of the man Jesus Christ on earth.

You cannot judge the tree by it's fruit, because it's not the fruit that is good or bad, but only the tree.

It rejects the one truth of the Bible that the unrepentant world hates: A person is judged good or bad, by what we do. And that judgment is in the hands of the altogether righteous God, who is wholly objective in His true judgment without respect of persons.

God says the works tell the tale, and He doesn't care one bit what people believe or think or imagine about themselves, but only what they commit in works, beginning with the heart:

Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

We are what we do. Our works judge and define us. He that steals is a thief, and we know no thief hath eternal life, anymore than the murderer that murders, the drunkard that gets drunk...

Our soul is the life we live, even as the tree is the fruit it bears. A good soul lives good, and a good tree bears good fruit, and though man may justify doing both good and bad, the true God and Christ does not:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

No good soul does evil in the kingdom of God. Only no good souls do evil in the world.

The whole roomful of doctrinal smoke filling up the lie of justification by faith alone, is summed up in the vainest of imaginations: That works are not justified, but the person is. People are not judged by their works, but only by what they believe.

People are not known by what they do, but only by what they believe of themselves, which is the faith a person has in themselves. The faith a person has of themselves is rejected by God:

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

It's their own faith alone, not the gift of the faith of God by Jesus Christ.

The faith one has to justify themselves apart from the deeds they are committing, is only the faith of oneself alone. It is not the faith of Jesus Christ, that justifes the soul and the life lived through Him.

God by Jesus Christ justifies both the soul and the works of His faithful people, that eschew evil and do good:

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

No bad fruit is on any tree, that has the holy root of Jesus Christ. No bad fruit is on any good tree in the kingdom of God.

A man is only justified by works faithful to Jesus Christ, not by any faith of himself alone.

 

[Free]

But no single word has different meanings from each other.

Not sure what you're saying here.

Since you disown it, why should anyone else own it.

I didn't disown it. You seem to not understand the use of quotation marks.

The gospel I preach is my gospel from the Scriptures preaching Paul's gospel, which is given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and to all that believe and obey His gospel.

The gospel you preach is not my gospel. Not the way you preach it.

If you preach that justification is by faith and works, that is not justification and, therefore, not the gospel. Paul's whole point in Gal 1, and elsewhere, is that salvation (justification), is by grace alone through faith alone. Anything else is a false gospel. That is one of the clearest teachings in the NT, which is why every Christian and every Christian church believes it.

No doubt all the Christians and churches you want to be part of.

Every Christian church.

But not me, nor all churches naming Christ.

Not you, but all churches naming Christ.

I have no willing ignorance to the Bible, nor to what any man teaches from the Bible.

Yes, you do, as is evidenced by your inability to provide the biblical definitions of "justification" and continued unwillingness to look them up. That is the very definition of willful ignorance.

Do you preach in the judgment of works, that no man is saved nor justified by their faith alone, if their works are judged unrighteous to God?

This is a confusing question. I have been very clear this whole time. As the Bible teaches, we are justified (declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The good works a believer does is the evidence of his faith, but will never justify him, although they will determine the level of reward.

An unbeliever's works are the evidence that he is not saved and will determine the level of punishment.

No one doing unrighteousness is ever declared righteous by their faith alone?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

So finally we have it: Works are not judged.

No, not only have I never said that, I have been consistent and clear that works are judged. They just don't save us. You think that is what I said because, once again, you are willfully ignorant of the biblical definitions of "justification."

Therefore, people can only judged by their faith alone.

It's the necessary conlcusion of being judged righteous or unrighteous by one's faith alone, that so far has been left unsaid.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Being judged by one's personal faith alone, is being judged with respect of the person, and not objectively by our works. It's the rejection of the Bible truth, that the world of unrepentant sinners does not want to believe.

And since the true God and Father does judge us by our works, then if He doesn't judge our works, then He doesn't judge anyone.

Also, since Jesus Christ does not judge with respect of persons, then if He does not judge someone by their works, then He cannot judge anyone by their works, and once again He cannot judge anyone.

By their own faith alone, some people want to believe in a Christ of their own, that does not judge their works, nor themselves by their works, but only want their Christ to judge others by their works.

That of course is not Jesus Christ the righteous, nor the righteous Judge and Father.

No need to respond to this as the whole post is predicated on not understanding the biblical meanings of "justification," and, therefore, not understanding what I stated.

 

[Free]

I.e. works are not judged, only people are. And people are only judged by their faith alone, not by works.

In order to avoid the conclusion that works are not judged, if works are not justified, then we must say justification is not with judgment. And so the conclusion is the same, but only worse: Not only are works not judged, but neither are people judged, if justification is by faith alone without judgment.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

This Scripture specifically condemns anyone believing their faith alone justifies them, as though God will not judge all people objectively and equally by works: God must accept their persons by their faith alone.

It's the world's nonjudgmentalism, where a person's beliefs must be respected by all, including by any God: Works cannot be judged, but only what one believes matters.

It's the oldest lying promise in the Book: By works you shall not surely die, but like God, only what you believe will matter. You will be as gods justified solely by your faith alone, not by anything you do.

It's Lucifer's accusation against God being a personal tyrant over His creatures. He does not judge His own works, but only what He believes and says at the time matters:

"But Captain you said..." "I don't care what I told you before! I'm telling you!" (James Cagney in Mr Roberts)

I believe this is the key to opening the whole Pandora's box of justification by faith alone. It states what every faith alone teacher wants to leave unsaid: The person and their works are separate from one another. The tree is not known by it's fruit. The person is not what they are doing, but is something entirely different within.

"I know I still do bad things, but that's not really who I am. I am really a good person iniside." It's not what we do that counts, but only what we believe about ourselves."

This is the modern liberal nonjudgmentalism that is at the root of believing and teaching justification by faith alone: The person is justified by their faith alone, not by their works, because only the person is justified or condemned, not the works.

Therefore, they confess their own works are not justified with God. All their works are unjustified.

And in order to justify themselves, they believe and preach that no man's works are ever justified with God in heaven, including the works of the man Jesus Christ on earth.

You cannot judge the tree by it's fruit, because it's not the fruit that is good or bad, but only the tree.

It rejects the one truth of the Bible that the unrepentant world hates: A person is judged good or bad, by what we do. And that judgment is in the hands of the altogether righteous God, who is wholly objective in His true judgment without respect of persons.

God says the works tell the tale, and He doesn't care one bit what people believe or think or imagine about themselves, but only what they commit in works, beginning with the heart:

Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

We are what we do. Our works judge and define us. He that steals is a thief, and we know no thief hath eternal life, anymore than the murderer that murders, the drunkard that gets drunk...

Our soul is the life we live, even as the tree is the fruit it bears. A good soul lives good, and a good tree bears good fruit, and though man may justify doing both good and bad, the true God and Christ does not:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

No good soul does evil in the kingdom of God. Only no good souls do evil in the world.

The whole roomful of doctrinal smoke filling up the lie of justification by faith alone, is summed up in the vainest of imaginations: That works are not justified, but the person is. People are not judged by their works, but only by what they believe.

People are not known by what they do, but only by what they believe of themselves, which is the faith a person has in themselves. The faith a person has of themselves is rejected by God:

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

It's their own faith alone, not the gift of the faith of God by Jesus Christ.

The faith one has to justify themselves apart from the deeds they are committing, is only the faith of oneself alone. It is not the faith of Jesus Christ, that justifes the soul and the life lived through Him.

God by Jesus Christ justifies both the soul and the works of His faithful people, that eschew evil and do good:

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

No bad fruit is on any tree, that has the holy root of Jesus Christ. No bad fruit is on any good tree in the kingdom of God.

A man is only justified by works faithful to Jesus Christ, not by any faith of himself alone.

Once again, these two posts, in their entirety, are predicated on not understanding what the Bible says and, therefore, what I said. Your main problem, which I have pointed out numerous times in several threads, is that you do not understand the biblical definitions of "justification." If you did, I suspect these threads would cease; they would be completely unnecessary.

Instead, you seem intent on remaining ignorant and therefore continue to misrepresent what others believe (what Christians believe). I wish you would just do some proper study, for your sake. Finding the biblical definitions of "justification" is really quite simple, so I'm not sure why you don't want to do it. I've even given them to you before, so it's all the more puzzling.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (ESV)