Lust

[Pebbles]

If a man looks upon a woman and (desires in his heart, i.e. he would if he could, have intercourse with her beyond a shadow of a doubt) lusts after her, Jesus will convict him of adultery because he has committed the act in his heart and mind already.

Be hard on yourself sure, but be careful what you put forward as a standard onto another when it comes to an issue of the heart that only God is qualified to judge.

The key issue here that we need to focus on teaching is 'respect', respect for our own bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, respect due to others and the rights of potential husbands or wives and above all respect for the Word of God.

A person who looks at another's body and desires to have illegitimate sex with him or her is akin to a person that looks at a house and wants to ransack the contents that belong to another. A robber so to speak!

Some people who know the Lord can look upon all manor of things and have no guilt in their hearts, it has to be this way or else no ministry could get done in the world.

In fact this is a mature heart and mind that can do these things, it is an immature mind skewed by sin that entertains the immoral as an option, and even worse it is a fallen heart that lusts for it.

"be in the world but not of it"

Are you telling me you never feel anger and feel a desire to lash out and hurt others even if you then catch your emotions before you do such an act. emitting an exasperated sigh, rather than chewing your annoying friends eyeballs from their head.

Your desires are biochemical and neurological, you can override them as a sentient and sapient begin but its how your brain is physically built to experience them.

The animalistic conciousness processing dealing with Fear, Anger, Joy, Pleasure, Hot, cold are the oldest and most central compartments of your brain found even in lower vetebrates and thus are so fast and powerful in your conciousness the part of your brain that make you human, future planning, conciousness, reasoning, are recently evolved complex and slower, your brain has limitations and operational capacities it's not a magic box. your guilting yourself for no reason at all.


but you know if you want to alter your brains operational capacities you can do so with mind altering drugs... That's what your talking about isn't it your blaming yourselves for commiting thought crimes.

Swallow a buttload of hormone blockers like I do in order to destory your male hormones that male you feel sexually driven. you can be a modern day eunich.
Cyproterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

trust me as someone who's taken hormone blockers. as your males hormones are eliminated from your body your sexuallity is reduced to childlike function and falls asleep. Of course it returns in a subtly different fashion if you take estrogens. aquiring a female type libido. presumibly you skip the second step.

 

[Asyncritus]

[...]

lust is the sin, but it doesn't become lust until as you point out someone purposes in their heart to do it, then it goes from natural or legitimate to illegitimate or perverted.

Lust is not the sin. Here's James 1 on the point:

15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

You notice the carefully described progession.

Lust, BEFORE IT HAS CONCEIVED, is not sin.

Lust AFTER IT HAS CONCEIVED, bears sin.

Lust and sin are not the same, any more than an unfertilised ovum is an embryo.

 

[Asyncritus]

Swallow a buttload of hormone blockers like I do in order to destory your male hormones that male you feel sexually driven. you can be a modern day eunich.
Cyproterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

trust me as someone who's taken hormone blockers. as your males hormones are eliminated from your body your sexuallity is reduced to childlike function and falls asleep. Of course it returns in a subtly different fashion if you take estrogens. aquiring a female type libido. presumibly you skip the second step.

Pebbles

You are doing something frightfully dangerous by tampering with your endocrine system, and I really don't think you should be advocating such a dangerous practice on a public board.

I don't know if you know, but the hormonal system is an extraordinarily complex and interlinked system. If you tamper with its balance, you are inviting serious trouble and health problems.

Any medicos reading this, please come forward and say something about it.

I would simply say: Don't do it.

 

[Levi]

Could you help interpreting that verse to me? We learn when we fellowship with one another. This is not just a forum - I call it a church.

Lust is the sin

God made the sex drive and attraction is part of it, attraction to others of the opposite sex and even attraction to the act of sex itself. So, ipso facto a sexual desire on its own is not lust.

I like what one of my pastor friends says about it "if we didn't have a sex drive the human race would die out, no one would bother because it would be to much hard work!"

Lust is the condition of the heart where a man or woman will stop at no end to posses something it can involve murder, rape, adultery, perversity, lying, cheating, stealing etc.... it can be borne from a number of natural desires like financial security, sex, leadership, It is a driving force that motivates.

the three g's I've heard them called, gold,girls and glory (obviously replacing girls with men when dealing with women) There are others I'm sure but they are identified as the three main areas that we need to constantly be monitoring ourselves over.

As far as sexual lust goes I would term it to be the purposing in a persons heart which drives them to commit or want to commit:

Sexual acts borne of illegitimate desires and perversion as revealed by Gods Word. (perversion being the twisting or subverting of the natural)

Obviously marriage, monogamy and fidelity is the template that God has laid out for us for correct and legitimate sexual connection.

Anything outside of that is illegitimate. There is argument over what actually constitutes marriage, but none the less its between a man and a woman and its meant to be for life.

People can be attracted to other people, it's a fact. What they do with it and how far they allow it to go determines whether or not the have acted legitimately or illegitimately.

I know you never understood my use of 'jittery' and 'tone'. There was a smily too. You said I should do some clarification. So I was asking myself the question: 'I'm I really good at such matters?' I hope it is clear now.

I wasn't having a dig at you, just stating in general to explain my tone!

 

[Levi]

Lust is not the sin. Here's James 1 on the point:

15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

You notice the carefully described progession.

Lust, BEFORE IT HAS CONCEIVED, is not sin.

Lust AFTER IT HAS CONCEIVED, bears sin.

Lust and sin are not the same, any more than an unfertilised ovum is an embryo.

Job 31:11-12 (NLT)
For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished.
12 It is a fire that burns all the way to hell.
It would wipe out everything I own.



Lust is covetousness or a motivating force it leads into all sorts of sins as the holder attempts to gain satisfaction


It's a violation of the ten commandments.


It's a sin

 

[Classik]

Lust is the sin

God made the sex drive and attraction is part of it, attraction to others of the opposite sex and even attraction to the act of sex itself. So, ipso facto a sexual desire on its own is not lust.

I like what one of my pastor friends says about it "if we didn't have a sex drive the human race would die out, no one would bother because it would be to much hard work!"

Lust is the condition of the heart where a man or woman will stop at no end to posses something it can involve murder, rape, adultery, perversity, lying, cheating, stealing etc.... it can be borne from a number of natural desires like financial security, sex, leadership, It is a driving force that motivates.

the three g's I've heard them called, gold,girls and glory (obviously replacing girls with men when dealing with women) There are others I'm sure but they are identified as the three main areas that we need to constantly be monitoring ourselves over.

As far as sexual lust goes I would term it to be the purposing in a persons heart which drives them to commit or want to commit:

Sexual acts borne of illegitimate desires and perversion as revealed by Gods Word. (perversion being the twisting or subverting of the natural)

Obviously marriage, monogamy and fidelity is the template that God has laid out for us for correct and legitimate sexual connection.

Anything outside of that is illegitimate. There is argument over what actually constitutes marriage, but none the less its between a man and a woman and its meant to be for life.

People can be attracted to other people, it's a fact. What they do with it and how far they allow it to go determines whether or not the have acted legitimately or illegitimately.

I wasn't having a dig at you, just stating in general to explain my tone!

Alright, Levi. Thanks for the explanation

 

[Asyncritus]

Job 31:11-12 (NLT)
For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished.
12 It is a fire that burns all the way to hell.
It would wipe out everything I own.

This translation is quite nonsensical. Here are some more reputable ones:

9 ¶ If my heart hath been enticed unto a woman, And I have laid wait at my neighbor’s door;
10 Then let my wife grind unto another, And let others bow down upon her.
11 For that were a heinous crime; Yea, it were an iniquity to be punished by the judges:
12 For it is a fire that consumeth unto Destruction, And would root out all mine increase.ASV

9 ¶ If my heart went after another man’s wife, or if I was waiting secretly at my neighbour’s door;
10 Then let my wife give pleasure to another man and let others make use of her body.
11 For that would be a crime; it would be an act for which punishment would be measured out by the judges:
12 It would be a fire burning even to destruction, and taking away all my produce.BBE

9 ¶ “if my heart has been enticed toward a woman, and I have lain in wait at my neighbor’s door;
10 then let my wife grind for another man, and let others kneel on her.
11 for that would be a heinous act, a criminal offense,CJB

Note that in each case an action has followed the desire. IF THE ACTION HAD NOT FOLLOWED THE DESIRE, then the condemnation would not have been mentioned.

Lust is covetousness or a motivating force it leads into all sorts of sins

I think this is perfectly correct. It is a motivating force which COULD LEAD into sin as in David's case, or not, as in Joseph's case.

By saying 'it leads into all sorts of sins' you have drawn the distinction correctly, separating lust and sin, as James did.

 

[childeye]

This translation is quite nonsensical. Here are some more reputable ones:

9 ¶ If my heart hath been enticed unto a woman, And I have laid wait at my neighbor’s door;
10 Then let my wife grind unto another, And let others bow down upon her.
11 For that were a heinous crime; Yea, it were an iniquity to be punished by the judges:
12 For it is a fire that consumeth unto Destruction, And would root out all mine increase.ASV

9 ¶ If my heart went after another man’s wife, or if I was waiting secretly at my neighbour’s door;
10 Then let my wife give pleasure to another man and let others make use of her body.
11 For that would be a crime; it would be an act for which punishment would be measured out by the judges:
12 It would be a fire burning even to destruction, and taking away all my produce.BBE

9 ¶ “if my heart has been enticed toward a woman, and I have lain in wait at my neighbor’s door;
10 then let my wife grind for another man, and let others kneel on her.
11 for that would be a heinous act, a criminal offense,CJB

Note that in each case an action has followed the desire. IF THE ACTION HAD NOT FOLLOWED THE DESIRE, then the condemnation would not have been mentioned.



I think this is perfectly correct. It is a motivating force which COULD LEAD into sin as in David's case, or not, as in Joseph's case.

By saying 'it leads into all sorts of sins' you have drawn the distinction correctly, separating lust and sin, as James did.

I like your posts on this subject. They are thought provoking. And here is why. The start of this thread says to even look at a woman to lust after her is to commit adultery in one's heart. We are discussing then, the means by which a man would be able to attain such a purity. It has also been mentioned that only God could accomplish this in a man. You seem to be focusing on the action rather than the standard Jesus describes. Do you believe in the standard Jesus describes?

 

[Asyncritus]

Childeye

I certainly do believe in what He says. He is the Son of God, and failure to take Him with deadly seriousness can only lead to disaster.

What no-one has mentioned as yet is that this statement doesn't come out of thin air. Very, very few of His statements do. This one is no exception. It comes from the place where many of His teachings come from: the book of Proverbs.

Look at this passage, and see if you agree that it does,

Then look at its context, and you'll see why I think the way I do about it.

Here's Jesus:

Mt 5,28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Here's Proverbs:

Pr 6.25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

It seems pretty plain to me that the 2 passages are very closely related. So if we can figure out what Proverbs is about, we ought to have no difficulty in seeing what Jesus is talking about either.

Here's the context of Proverbs:

25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
26 For on account of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
28 Or can one walk upon hot coals, and his feet not be scorched?
29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour’s wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be unpunished.
30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry:
31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.
32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

Again we see that it is the lust followed up by the decision to act, that triggers the action that is being described.

Notice too that the wronged husband gets involved:

34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

And the next thing that Jesus says is:

29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

which is matched by:

Pr 6.32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.

If such a thing takes place, then divorce is the next step, and Jesus goes on to that very subject in the next few verses of Mt 5:

31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

There's another bit in Proverbs which tends to confirm the point about making the decision:

21 With her much fair speech she causeth him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forceth him away.
22 He goeth after her straightway, [the decision has been made] as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as fetters to the correction of the fool;
23 Till an arrow strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 ¶ Now therefore, my sons, hearken unto me, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, all her slain are a mighty host.
27 Her house is the way to Sheol, going down to the chambers of death.

Clearly, he makes a decision to go in - and the consequences are drastic.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

I certainly do believe in what He says. He is the Son of God, and failure to take Him with deadly seriousness can only lead to disaster.

What no-one has mentioned as yet is that this statement doesn't come out of thin air. Very, very few of His statements do. This one is no exception. It comes from the place where many of His teachings come from: the book of Proverbs.

Look at this passage, and see if you agree that it does,

Then look at its context, and you'll see why I think the way I do about it.

Here's Jesus:

Mt 5,28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Here's Proverbs:

Pr 6.25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

It seems pretty plain to me that the 2 passages are very closely related. So if we can figure out what Proverbs is about, we ought to have no difficulty in seeing what Jesus is talking about either.

Here's the context of Proverbs:

25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
26 For on account of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
28 Or can one walk upon hot coals, and his feet not be scorched?
29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour’s wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be unpunished.
30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry:
31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.
32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

Again we see that it is the lust followed up by the decision to act, that triggers the action that is being described.

Notice too that the wronged husband gets involved:

34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

And the next thing that Jesus says is:

29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

which is matched by:

Pr 6.32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.

If such a thing takes place, then divorce is the next step, and Jesus goes on to that very subject in the next few verses of Mt 5:

31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

There's another bit in Proverbs which tends to confirm the point about making the decision:

21 With her much fair speech she causeth him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forceth him away.
22 He goeth after her straightway, [the decision has been made] as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as fetters to the correction of the fool;
23 Till an arrow strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 ¶ Now therefore, my sons, hearken unto me, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, all her slain are a mighty host.
27 Her house is the way to Sheol, going down to the chambers of death.

Clearly, he makes a decision to go in - and the consequences are drastic.

I am aware of all of this scripture, and it is a sure warning. But still, I feel Jesus is talking about a way by which God makes all of this lesson in proverbs a moot point. That God can cure a man of such a weakness for women so that such warnings are not necessary. For I see all sins are based on some lie believed to be truth. There is therefore a Truth that defeats every lie in conviction and Love is the motivation to comply. Such love however must live in a man by grace so that a man honor God and esteem Him in purity of conscience and heart. To get that grace that preserves the goodness in man, a person must esteem God as such. To believe it is our choice to sin or not therefore debases God.

 

[Levi]

I am aware of all of this scripture, and it is a sure warning. But still, I feel Jesus is talking about a way by which God makes all of this lesson in proverbs a moot point. That God can cure a man of such a weakness for women so that such warnings are not necessary. For I see all sins are based on some lie believed to be truth. There is therefore a Truth that defeats every lie in conviction and Love is the motivation to comply. Such love however must live in a man by grace so that a man honor God and esteem Him in purity of conscience and heart. To get that grace that preserves the goodness in man, a person must esteem God as such. To believe it is our choice to sin or not therefore debases God.

:o 'lesson in proverbs a moot point'? Surely you mean the understanding is fulfilled in the man?

It's understanding that God grants us through the mind of Christ. As the scripture says

If a man understands the true meaning the proverb then he has every ability to abide by its wisdom.

To those that are perishing this wisdom is foolishness, as is the Cross.

 

[childeye]

:o 'lesson in proverbs a moot point'? Surely you mean the understanding is fulfilled in the man?

It's understanding that God grants us through the mind of Christ. As the scripture says

If a man understands the true meaning the proverb then he has every ability to abide by its wisdom.

To those that are perishing this wisdom is foolishness, as is the Cross.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm saying that when Jesus said it is impossible for man to not have such a lust, but for God anything is possible, I take it that Jesus is saying men can't do it but God can fullfill it. The wise instruction should be heeded if lust is present. If no such lust existed however it would be a moot point to address it. You may be right however if what you're saying is that through this wisdom is the way God makes it possible for man to overcome lust.

 

[Levi]

Childeye

I certainly do believe in what He says. He is the Son of God, and failure to take Him with deadly seriousness can only lead to disaster.

What no-one has mentioned as yet is that this statement doesn't come out of thin air. Very, very few of His statements do. This one is no exception. It comes from the place where many of His teachings come from: the book of Proverbs.

Look at this passage, and see if you agree that it does,

Then look at its context, and you'll see why I think the way I do about it.

Here's Jesus:

Mt 5,28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Here's Proverbs:

Pr 6.25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

It seems pretty plain to me that the 2 passages are very closely related. So if we can figure out what Proverbs is about, we ought to have no difficulty in seeing what Jesus is talking about either.

Here's the context of Proverbs:

25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
26 For on account of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
28 Or can one walk upon hot coals, and his feet not be scorched?
29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour’s wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be unpunished.
30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry:
31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.
32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

Again we see that it is the lust followed up by the decision to act, that triggers the action that is being described.

Notice too that the wronged husband gets involved:

34 For jealousy is the rage of a man; and he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

And the next thing that Jesus says is:

29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

which is matched by:

Pr 6.32 He that committeth adultery with a woman is void of understanding: he doeth it that would destroy his own soul.
33 Wounds and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.

If such a thing takes place, then divorce is the next step, and Jesus goes on to that very subject in the next few verses of Mt 5:

31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

There's another bit in Proverbs which tends to confirm the point about making the decision:

21 With her much fair speech she causeth him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forceth him away.
22 He goeth after her straightway, [the decision has been made] as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as fetters to the correction of the fool;
23 Till an arrow strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 ¶ Now therefore, my sons, hearken unto me, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, all her slain are a mighty host.
27 Her house is the way to Sheol, going down to the chambers of death.

Clearly, he makes a decision to go in - and the consequences are drastic.

The point that Jesus was making is that He has moved the bar.

Whilst under physical law the synopses that you compile is largely correct,

the point you are missing though is that if the proverb tells you not to 'lust in your heart' then this is a conscious decision that a man must make.

attraction-decision to pursue-Lust-decision to act-action(sin)-consequence.


Jesus amended the law to included the 'lust' as a transgression under that particular article of the law, regardless of the physical action He is more concerned with the spiritual action here.

attraction-decision to pursue-Lust(sin)-decision to act(sin)-action(sin)-consequence

 

[childeye]

The point that Jesus was making is that He has moved the bar.

Whilst under physical law the synopses that you compile is largely correct,

the point you are missing though is that if the proverb tells you not to 'lust in your heart' then this is a conscious decision that a man must make.

attraction-decision to pursue-Lust-decision to act-action(sin)-consequence.


Jesus amended the law to included the 'lust' as a transgression under that particular article of the law, regardless of the physical action He is more concerned with the spiritual action here.

attraction-decision to pursue-Lust(sin)-decision to act(sin)-action(sin)-consequence

Yes well if that is the case and conquering lust is just a a matter of deciding to do so, then sin is simply a deliberation of the mind and we can simply choose to not sin now being made aware that it is wrong. This would make Satan right in saying we could be like God with the knowledge of good and evil. Also, as for Paul teaching that sin deceived him and through the law slew him, and that what he wills to do he does not do, then this also would be incorrect. I think either I misunderstand you or I misunderstand Paul and I certainly do not understand the case for mercy and understanding nor forbearance of sin.

I agree Jesus was moving the bar but only to point out that only God could make a man so righteous. For their were none born of the flesh that were more righteous than John the Baptist but even the least in the Kingdom of God will be more righteous than he.

 

[Levi]

Yes well if that is the case and conquering lust is just a a matter of deciding to do so, then sin is simply a deliberation of the mind and we can simply choose to not sin now being made aware that it is wrong. This would make Satan right in saying we could be like God with the knowledge of good and evil. Also, as for Paul teaching that sin deceived him and through the law slew him, and that what he wills to do he does not do, then this also would be incorrect. I think either I misunderstand you or I misunderstand Paul and I certainly do not understand the case for mercy and understanding nor forbearance of sin.

I agree Jesus was moving the bar but only to point out that only God could make a man so righteous. For their were none born of the flesh that were more righteous than John the Baptist but even the least in the Kingdom of God will be more righteous than he.

I never said a fallen man could choose not to. I was explaining to Asyncrytis that lust is a sin.

and

Jesus moved the bar on the law regarding adultery to encapsulate it in the judgment.

That's all I was saying. Nothing more and nothing less.

And as you and I both know He was in fact fulfilling the law and making it impossible to achieve righteousness under its precepts.

Prior to Jesus carrying out this amendment a man was not guilty of adultery under the law until he dropped his draws.

Now he is guilty under the law by just entertaining it in his heart.

Put it that way.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm saying that when Jesus said it is impossible for man to not have such a lust, but for God anything is possible, I take it that Jesus is saying men can't do it but God can fullfill it. The wise instruction should be heeded if lust is present. If no such lust existed however it would be a moot point to address it. You may be right however if what you're saying is that through this wisdom is the way God makes it possible for man to overcome lust.

All scripture is created for the benefit of those who are enlightened by the truth.

This is exactly my point about making a conscious decision not to pursue lust as taught to us through various proverbs and scripture.

 

[childeye]

I never said a fallen man could choose not to. I was explaining to Asyncrytis that lust is a sin.

and

Jesus moved the bar on the law regarding adultery to encapsulate it in the judgment.

That's all I was saying. Nothing more and nothing less.

And as you and I both know He was in fact fulfilling the law and making it impossible to achieve righteousness under its precepts.

Prior to Jesus carrying out this amendment a man was not guilty of adultery under the law until he dropped his draws.

Now he is guilty under the law by just entertaining it in his heart.

Put it that way.



All scripture is created for the benefit of those who are enlightened by the truth.

This is exactly my point about making a conscious decision not to pursue lust as taught to us through various proverbs and scripture.

You've made your point clearly. My point is simply that the bar being highered only points to another power necessary to achieve it. We need a pure unselfish Love that must come by grace. Hence it will not come without first acknowledging that.

 

[Asyncritus]

I never said a fallen man could choose not to. I was explaining to Asyncrytis that lust is a sin.

Just as a point of interest, Levi, can you tell me if you think that Jesus lusted after food, power, and glory as shown in the temptations in the wilderness?

 

[childeye]

Just as a point of interest, Levi, can you tell me if you think that Jesus lusted after food, power, and glory as shown in the temptations in the wilderness?

That's a great question, A perfect display of how definitions of terms reverse when looking at both subjective and objective points of view at once.

 

[Levi]

Just as a point of interest, Levi, can you tell me if you think that Jesus lusted after food, power, and glory as shown in the temptations in the wilderness?

No I don't think He did, I think His demonstration shows how to weigh up, cut and divide using the Word against what Satan twists .

At that point He believed what God say's over what Satan says, important to have the Spirit and know the Word.

Therefore it did not progress far enough for 'lust' to have entered the picture.

Temptation yes, lust no.

" For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

 

[Asyncritus]

No I don't think He did, I think His demonstration shows how to weigh up, cut and divide using the Word against what Satan twists .

Levi

You're not being fair to Scripture or to me.

Here's James again - perhaps you're going to say that he's doing some twisting and cutting up too. That's up to you.

1.14 but each man [that must include Jesus too, mustn't it?] is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

Therefore it did not progress far enough for 'lust' to have entered the picture.

The temptation consists of lust drawing away and enticing the man.

So was lust there or not?