Lust

[Levi]

Levi

You're not being fair to Scripture or to me.

Here's James again - perhaps you're going to say that he's doing some twisting and cutting up too. That's up to you.

1.14 but each man [that must include Jesus too, mustn't it?] is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.



The temptation consists of lust drawing away and enticing the man.

So was lust there or not?

Ok lets be fair to both:

12Happy the man who doth endure temptation, because, becoming approved, he shall receive the crown of the life, which the Lord did promise to those loving Him.
13Let no one say, being tempted -- `From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
14and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
15afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.



This is from Young's litteral.


Do not miss the context in which James is making the point!

The machinations are of 'falling away' due to temptation because some would claim the 'temptation is of God'.

The specific point is that the temptation originates from the flesh not God

He is teaching that this is a deadly cop out and an excuse to indulge in sinful behavior.

You will also fully note that the end result is death!

We know this to be true because the preceding verse is affirmation of life to those who have endured correctly.

Using this portion of scripture to try and disprove lust as a sin is not wise, it is a scripture that talks of death from start to finish. 'Lust' is of the flesh.

Jesus was not of an earthly father so he had no blood sin in Him. He was tempted directly by Satan himself. Within that was every temptation known to man (just imagine, every kingdom of the earth in an instant of time and everything that would have entailed!) No mere mortal with a body filled with fallen desires could have endured such a temptation.

What do you think Jesus desires would have been?

I would imagine that His desires would have been to 'do the will of the Father'

And I found this in Young's as well:

"28but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart."

So by this translation, I would see a man specifically looking at a women with intent to lust after her!

Intent.

 

[Asyncritus]

Ok lets be fair to both:

12Happy the man who doth endure temptation, because, becoming approved, he shall receive the crown of the life, which the Lord did promise to those loving Him.
13Let no one say, being tempted -- `From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
14and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
15afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

This is from Young's litteral.

All that Young has done is to substitute 'desires' for 'lust'.

So we're no further forward.

The context doesn't help either - because it merely points out that it isn't God who does the tempting - it comes from within man, and Jesus said exactly the same thing:

18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:
20 these are the things which defile the man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.

The conclusion is unavoidable : lust causes and creates sin, but is not in itself sin.

It's like an equation in chemistry:

Lust + decision to do evil ------> sin

Strangely, you can lust after good things:

De 12:15 Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.

So if you desire (lust after) an evil thing, and decide irrevocably to take it/ do it then you have sinned.

The lust has conceived, and will bring forth the evil action.

If you desire (lust after) an evil thing, and irrevocably decide NOT to take/ do it, then you have not sinned.

The lust has not conceived, and cannot/ will not bring forth the evil action.

Using this portion of scripture to try and disprove lust as a sin is not wise, it is a scripture that talks of death from start to finish. 'Lust' is of the flesh.

The passage is far too clear on the point Levi. I am not making a mistake, merely taking it at its face value.

Lust conceives and brings forth sin. Common sense therefore tells me that lust itself cannot be a sin. It is the parent of sin, but not sin itself.

Then we have to deal with the fact that there are good lusts. Here's one:

De 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after <0185>.

and here's another:

Deut 18.6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire [same word as above] of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose;
7 Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before the LORD.

Here's somebody lusting after doing the work of God as His minister!

...

Within that was every temptation known to man (just imagine, every kingdom of the earth in an instant of time and everything that would have entailed!) No mere mortal with a body filled with fallen desires could have endured such a temptation.

Too true.

What do you think Jesus desires would have been?

Matt 4 tells us. He wanted every one of those things recorded there, or there would have been no temptation, would there?

Nobody's recently tempted me to fly off the roof of my house so everybody could see - but that was something Jesus wanted to do - or there would have been no temptation at all. Similarly with the bread, and the view from the high mountain.

Those were things He desperately wanted - because the alternative was to die the most hideous death the Romans could devise.

He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin.

The lust did not harden into irrevocable decisions which would have resulted in sin.

Intent.

That's the critical ingredient - the intention, the decision to do the evil deed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The 10th commandment.

Is the one that "GETS" you - even if the other 9 don't. The Sermon on the mount is largely a dissertation about the 10th commandment - which is where the "Lust of the eyes" comes in.

There are folks that can look at a lady who's built like a masonry latrine, and have NO interest whatsoever, and then there's folks who can't.

There are folks who can "stop the process" before it becomes sin, and other who struggle with the issue.

Jesus was tempted IN EVERY WAY as we are (Drawn away of His "OWN LUST" and enticed) as a fully functional MALE, but didn't "sin" in the process. Most of us aren't capable of that. I don't know that YOU are.

Harold Ockengea used to say that:

You CAN'T keep the birds from flying overhead - but you CAN keep them from building a nest in your hair.

 

[Levi]

The context doesn't help either - because it merely points out that it isn't God who does the tempting - it comes from within man, and Jesus said exactly the same thing:

18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:
20 these are the things which defile the man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.

The conclusion is unavoidable : lust causes and creates sin, but is not in itself sin.

Lust conceives and brings forth sin. Common sense therefore tells me that lust itself cannot be a sin. It is the parent of sin, but not sin itself.

Then we have to deal with the fact that there are good lusts. Here's one:

De 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after <0185>.

and here's another:

Deut 18.6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire [same word as above] of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose;
7 Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before the LORD.

Here's somebody lusting after doing the work of God as His minister!



Too true.



Matt 4 tells us. He wanted every one of those things recorded there, or there would have been no temptation, would there?

Nobody's recently tempted me to fly off the roof of my house so everybody could see - but that was something Jesus wanted to do - or there would have been no temptation at all. Similarly with the bread, and the view from the high mountain.

Those were things He desperately wanted - because the alternative was to die the most hideous death the Romans could devise.

He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin.

The lust did not harden into irrevocable decisions which would have resulted in sin.



That's the critical ingredient - the intention, the decision to do the evil deed.

I take your point and it is similar to the argument that I make to people who try to hammer others for simply looking when they don't know what is transpiring in the mans heart or mind (especially wives, funny that).

We can not judge the heart of another that is clearly Gods domain.

Where we seem to have come a fowl is over the strict definition of lust, it has clearly become a term as of modern day language to positively refer to the sin action involved.

we do find this duality in scripture as well, because if a man is standing there with his tongue hanging out ogglying a woman, then he is by definition 'lusting' or 'desiring'

How else would you describe this sin action what name would you put to this sin action he is comiting at this point?

So I guess my point is kind of circular to where I entered this conversation, some desire is righteous and some desire is sin as you rightly point out.

What do we call this sinful desire as opposed to this righteous desire?

where does the righteous desire come from and where does the sinful one originate?

The point about the type and design of the temptations put on Jesus by Satan is quite a good one but I do feel that the reason Satan told him to jump was to

'test his belief in God'

Because Jesus retaliated with: "it is written, thou shalt not test the Lord your God."

I have still never really thought hard over the bread, but I will set my mind to that one, today

 

[Asyncritus]

Thanks for that reply Levi.

I look at the point about ogling like this:

Suppose my neighbour has a beautiful rose in his garden. I love roses, and I could spend quite some time looking at it with my tongue hanging out.

Now I would never even contemplate climbing over the fence in the dead of night, uprooting the plant and planting it in my garden. I might like to, but it would never get that far in my thoughts, and definitely not in reality.

That's the difference. Admiring a woman or a man, is not exactly the same thing as taking them off to the nearest motel.

If it ends at looking, then that's it. It's when it goes further, and you begin to plan and scheme about how to get that person, that it becomes evil.

It's that word TO lust after her/him again.

 

[Levi]

I love roses, and I could spend quite some time looking at it with my tongue hanging out.
Now I would never even contemplate climbing over the fence in the dead of night, uprooting the plant and planting it in my garden. I might like to, but it would never get that far in my thoughts

The only reason your tongue would be hanging out would be if you had already contemplated how you could get it! salivation only occurs right before the bite! and you can taste it.

Thanks for that reply Levi.

Admiring a woman or a man, is not exactly the same thing as taking them off to the nearest motel.

If it ends at looking, then that's it. It's when it goes further, and you begin to plan and scheme about how to get that person, that it becomes evil.

It's that word TO lust after her/him again.

Yes I agree, but enter the quandary and the enigma!

Once again. from where does this 'admiration' originate?

I understand the point you are making, but please understand mine.

From Jesus to James it is the 'desires' or the 'lusts' of the man that lead away.

Jesus had no such lust within HIM, but you and I do.

I need clear definition from you as to what point or where and when a 'desire' or 'lust' is a sin!

Because I define the 'attraction' (your words, 'admiration')+decision='lust'=sin!

 

[felix]

Suppose my neighbour has a beautiful rose in his garden. I love roses, and I could spend quite some time looking at it with my tongue hanging out.

Now I would never even contemplate climbing over the fence in the dead of night, uprooting the plant and planting it in my garden. I might like to, but it would never get that far in my thoughts, and definitely not in reality.

That's the difference. Admiring a woman or a man, is not exactly the same thing as taking them off to the nearest motel.

If it ends at looking, then that's it. It's when it goes further, and you begin to plan and scheme about how to get that person, that it becomes evil.

It's that word TO lust after her/him again.

When you said the following:

• I could spend quite some time looking at it with my tongue hanging out
• I might like to
• Admiring a woman or a man

That's desire...

(Gal 5:24) And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

When you said the following:

• Now I would never even contemplate climbing over the fence...
• is not exactly the same thing as taking them off to the nearest motel.
• If it ends at looking, then that's it.

That's confidence...

(Matt 26:41) "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak."

Finally,
Everyone is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires (Jas 1:14)

How strong can a man's flesh be, who does not fall into temptation? When Scripture says weak, it is weak indeed and we don't want to prove it otherwise. When scripture asks us to watch and pray instead of continuing in admiring men or women, we must stop what we are doing and pray to the Lord.

Scripture is very clear that if you have desire and continue in doing it, you will slip into it to do sin because 'flesh is weak'.

 

[Asyncritus]

The only reason your tongue would be hanging out would be if you had already contemplated how you could get it! salivation only occurs right before the bite! and you can taste it.

;)

Yes I agree, but enter the quandary and the enigma!

Once again. from where does this 'admiration' originate?

I guess from my mind. It doesn't really come from that terrible list in Mk 7, does it?

I understand the point you are making, but please understand mine.

From Jesus to James it is the 'desires' or the 'lusts' of the man that lead away.

Jesus had no such lust within HIM, but you and I do.

I'm afraid that I can't agree with that last sentence.

Didn't He want bread? Power? Glory? To avoid death on that cross?

If all that wasn't within Him, then where did they come from? Remember, He was tempted in all points LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

So how do we get tempted? When the lust/desire within us hardens into a conscious decision to take whatever it is. We are still able to refuse. Here's a scenario from Proverbs with apologies to the Author.

Prov.7.7 AV And I beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner, and he went the way to her house;
9 In the twilight, in the evening of the day, in the blackness of night and the darkness.
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and wily of heart.
11 She is clamorous, and wilful; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now she is in the streets, now in the broad places, and lieth in wait at every corner.
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face she said unto him:

[...]

17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning; let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him; he will come home at the full moon.
21 With her much fair speech she causeth him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forceth him away.
22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as fetters to the correction of the fool;

So here's our hero, having decided to go with her. Off they're going, when his pal goes past and shouts to him: 'Hey Bill, there's a good game of football going on, and we need another man. Come on!'

So off he goes.

Now here's your question, which this scenario bears heavily upon.

I need clear definition from you as to what point or where and when a 'desire' or 'lust' is a sin!

Did Bill sin or not? I honestly can't give an answer to it. He fully intended to go with her: but decided against it in the end. Will it be held against him in the day of judgement? Only the Judge can say.

It reminds me vaguely of the son who said to his Father, no, I won't do it - but turned round and did as he was asked:

Mt 21.28 AV ¶ But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.

I'm struggling here.

Let me just say where I'm coming from on this subject.

The puritan road can make things extremely painful and even agonising for the sincere disciple. And the torture comes from an overly stringent application of the words of Mt 5.28.

This can, and has led to all manner of severe mental illness, as experience has shown, and any psychologist will tell you. At the least, it can create extreme discomfort in one's Christian walk.

That is a burden that no man can bear IF WE UNDERSTAND THE WORDS WRONGLY. I'm certain that Jesus had no such intention when He uttered them. He came that 'they may have life and have it more abundantly' and the severe understanding just doesn't fill that bill.

On the other hand, relaxing it too far, can, and will have equally disastrous consequences.

So I see it as a matter which has to be understood very correctly, and the only way to do that is to correlate that verse(s) with what is said elsewhere in Scripture.

I've tried to do that in one of my previous posts, which I don't know if you've read. I was seeking to avoid binding a burden on people's backs which they can in no wise bear without extreme discomfort.

So, can I give a definition of when lust becomes sin?

Beyond saying 'when the desire hardens into a conscious decision to act on it' I regret to say, I cannot.

 

[Former Christian]

Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (NIV)

Christians do seem to forget that little fact.

FC

 

[childeye]

Great back and forth guys. When does lust become sin? Why do we lust in the first place? What is lust? Where did it come from?

Felix says lust is desire and for the sake of semantics we must note that this desire is that this lust is carnal in nature. Just the mere fact of being made flesh there is a propensity to lust. But here I would contend that the knowledge of good and evil actvates this lust in the carnal mind through carnal reasoning.

We are all flesh and with the knowledge of good and evil we judge and compare ourselves against others in a carnal competition of who's better than who. To lust after a woman is to desire to possess in a way that through carnal relations, the woman makes the man of a higher status in comparison with others. The more beautiful the woman the more greater the man who possesses her. This of course is based on a carnal reasoning. Lust therefore is the desire to be better than others.

Jesus never lusted in my view, for he was never given to a carnal reasoning. At Gethsemane when our Lord was truly tempted, he did not look forward to being crucified and greatly desired not to go through with it. This is not lust. This is the ultimate test of spiritual endurance against the most base of carnal instincts. The point being that Love (God), is of more value than whatever transpires in the flesh.

 

[smaller]

The function of 'all scriptural laws/rules and commandments' serves to prove that lawlessness is present within all of us.

Anyone who says they do not sin 'in mind' in some way or some form with any given law as the thread starter generally observes merely proves the fact that a 'liar' is present within their minds.

Anyone who picks up any of Gods Commandments will learn nothing from them when they are dishonest about the facts.

If anyone is honest about this subject within themselves, 'then' God will show them other facts, the main of which is this: Every sin in thought, word or deed is directly connected to the devil. See 1 John 3:8 for a quick reference.

An honest believer will come to certain conclusions about these facts not only for themselves, but with others.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[elijah23]

I posted this thread last weekend, and come back to discover there are 70 replies. What are you people arguing about?

 

[childeye]

I posted this thread last weekend, and come back to discover there are 70 replies. What are you people arguing about?

It matters not what we are arguing about just so long as you know you started it.

Ha.......Ha..........Ha.

 

[smaller]

It matters not what we are arguing about just so long as you know you started it.

Ha.......Ha..........Ha.

Yeah, this will do it every time:

"I have no interest in the opinions of people who intentionally disobey the Lord’s will. "

Yes, some do claim total obedience, and some others know that everyone sins.

Therein 'lies' a great divide, often probed for truthfulness, seldom found.

s

 

[elijah23]

It matters not what we are arguing about just so long as you know you started it.

Ha.......Ha..........Ha.

I hope it is of a constructive nature.

 

[Classik]

I posted this thread last weekend, and come back to discover there are 70 replies. What are you people arguing about?

:toofunny Elijah!
I see you just launched a missile and fled! I am glad you are back.
To some - it is a missile (when they look at the first post), and to others it isn't

 

[elijah23]

Yeah, this will do it every time:

"I have no interest in the opinions of people who intentionally disobey the Lord’s will. "

Yes, some do claim total obedience, and some others know that everyone sins.

Therein 'lies' a great divide, often probed for truthfulness, seldom found.

s

There is a difference between failing to obey the Lord and believing the Lord was incorrect in his commandments. Sometimes I fail to obey, but I never believe the Lord was incorrect in his commandments.

 

[childeye]

Yeah, this will do it every time:

"I have no interest in the opinions of people who intentionally disobey the Lord’s will. "

Yes, some do claim total obedience, and some others know that everyone sins.

Therein 'lies' a great divide, often probed for truthfulness, seldom found.

s

Well done fellow hopeful son a very useful pun that you have spun. It clearly means your point points to the point that forever one can put a point between two other points to the point it makes no point.

 

[Classik]

Well done fellow hopeful son a very useful pun that you have spun. It clearly means your point points to the point that forever one can put a point between two other points to the point it makes no point.

That's a musical reply.

 

[elijah23]

:toofunny Elijah!
I see you just launched a missile and fled! I am glad you are back.
To some - it is a missile (when they look at the first post), and to others it isn't

It was meant to be a missile for anyone who thinks Jesus Christ was mistaken in what he told us to do.