Lust

[Classik]

I have read some of our replies so far. I am still glad some are really defending the bible. The issue of lust today is tearing the world apart, and many have been destroyed Because of it. God made us. He knows us. Christ said: he that looks upon a woman and lusts in his heart has committed adultery Already! The same applies to a woman who looks upon a man. He knows the evil thoughts in our heart.

See what happens in the world today. People get naked in the name of advertising products. Many of those images on posters show our females revealing parts of their body that a normal person should conceal. It is becoming popularized, and when you are not part of that 'advert trend' they call you a geek. Must a poster reveal the boobs of a woman? Must our contour be revealed? Must we pose such that we show some crazy curves?

A fashion designer openly confessed that the reason she designs certain designs is to make women attractive to men in a sexual way. She went on to say that most women confess they are not attractive enough to men, and that they need such designs that reveal their body.

Visit banks and hotels and many such places (not all), and you see half-naked people who attend to you. Why? Because they want to make customers - and retain them - and these men get attracted to them. Must a company be successful only when certain women dress in certain disgraceful ways? It is not the same with a muslim female.

Lust is lust!!!! God Could pardon the first look (as it Could happen accidentally). The Second look is obviously intentional.
Oops! http://www.christianforums.net/f17/lust-38447/index2.html#post570021
If my son or daughter wants to be a model, fine. But I would not want her to get naked.

 

[Levi]

Seeing a woman is never a problem. Saying that she's beautiful is not a problem, just as scripture says about Job's daughters. However, looking at any woman with an intention to marry is obviously lust of the eye.

Are you serious? So you think we should all be monks and not "go forth and multiply" or perhaps we should flagellate ourselves with the flail for having such a (according to the standard you are setting) perverted desire?

Or perhaps we should just settle into a spiritually dangerous relationship with a woman we find repulsive because our parents made a big climb up the social ladder from the union.

There are so many problems with your position that I don't know where to start!

Let me know which of the following do you think it's ok for your friend to admire your wife?

1. Your wife is beautiful
2. Your wife is pleasing to my eye
3. Your wife is hot

I don't have a problem with any of them, If my wife is beautiful, pleasing to the eye and hot. Then what's the problem? I would rather my friend acted like a friend and spoke out his impressions into clear air than behave like a snake and secret it in his heart and maybe allow it to eventually foster into covetousness.

If a man is of honest intent he will not be afraid to speak his mind to another of like mind. A man of devious intent will always hide covetousness.

Don't tell me all are same and I don't think the third is acceptable. Also, a woman must be beautiful to her husband and beautiful is not always physical. True love has nothing to do with physical attraction.

I think that is romantic but a little naive. I do agree that beautiful is not always physical, in fact I go further and believe that without the right moral fiber people are inherently repulsive regardless of what they look like. I have meet many a women that I consider to be truly ugly due to a holistic view, yet on the physical level they have beauty.

I don't think proverbs says what you are saying.

Here's a quick part of one for you:

Proverbs 5:18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be intoxicated with her love.
20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?
Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?

A man and a woman is more than enough to build a family. The reason why you say this is because of the abundance of porn in society, which made many to have a high standard for beauty and high expectations as a choice for their bride, which is unrealistic. Women on the other hand are forced to expose what only her husband must see and enjoy.

I'm not sure what you a driving at here, I do not see what pornography has to do with finding your wife physically attractive? In fact I would venture the opposite opinion and say that pornography could most likely lead to a man derive less pleasure from his wife.

I can tell you right now that I would remain single rather than exchange vowels with a woman that I did not find wholly attractive, because being tempted and lead astray is one thing for a single man

but

As the scripture of Jesus we are conversing here quite clearly states, if we are lead astray in our hearts while married the situation is compounded with 'adultery'

and that has ramifications.

 

[jasoncran]

Seeing a woman is never a problem. Saying that she's beautiful is not a problem, just as scripture says about Job's daughters. However, looking at any woman with an intention to marry is obviously lust of the eye.




Let me know which of the following do you think it's ok for your friend to admire your wife?

1. Your wife is beautiful
2. Your wife is pleasing to my eye
3. Your wife is hot

Don't tell me all are same and I don't think the third is acceptable. Also, a woman must be beautiful to her husband and beautiful is not always physical. True love has nothing to do with physical attraction.



I don't think proverbs says what you are saying. A man and a woman is more than enough to build a family. The reason why you say this is because of the abundance of porn in society, which made many to have a high standard for beauty and high expectations as a choice for their bride, which is unrealistic. Women on the other hand are forced to expose what only her husband must see and enjoy.



Why would you think that I am referring anything between husband and wife as lust?

because it starts with taking note. i dont find women attractive because of just looks. yes, i know men look at my wife, it happens, women look at me. my wife tells me when they do it. you were raised in india, its a totally different culture here, and dont think i havent an indians here. you dont think you and your wife ever recall with joy the day you met? my wife and do that. i was thinking of those days the other day. falling love is usually a process not some instatenous thing though it can be. albeit seldom.

oh i have dated women who werent all that attractive because of their personalities. so i do know the difference.beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i dont go looking for the sexiest girl when i was single.there are some mean girls that look good. so when i say attractive, its not some hollywood look. i am a realist.

 

[Levi]

Lust is lust!!!! God Could pardon the first look (as it Could happen accidentally). The Second look is obviously intentional.

Hi welcome to the conversation. I need clarification on your statement here because it is quite wide and sweeping and has no actual point in it, it's the kind of statement that can lead to a lot of confusion.

Why do you feel you need pardoning if your eyes set upon something that you have no control over? Is that a sin?

What do you mean by the second look being intentional? what is it that you are referring to that a person may be looking at?

And please define your understanding of what lust is.

 

[felix]

Are you serious? So you think we should all be monks and not "go forth and multiply" or perhaps we should flagellate ourselves with the flail for having such a (according to the standard you are setting) perverted desire?

Or perhaps we should just settle into a spiritually dangerous relationship with a woman we find repulsive because our parents made a big climb up the social ladder from the union.

There are so many problems with your position that I don't know where to start!

You don't need to be monks. You just need to be like Christ.

Let me know which of the following do you think it's ok for your friend to admire your wife?

1. Your wife is beautiful
2. Your wife is pleasing to my eye
3. Your wife is hot

I don't have a problem with any of them, If my wife is beautiful, pleasing to the eye and hot. Then what's the problem? I would rather my friend acted like a friend and spoke out his impressions into clear air than behave like a snake and secret it in his heart and maybe allow it to eventually foster into covetousness.

If a man is of honest intent he will not be afraid to speak his mind to another of like mind. A man of devious intent will always hide covetousness.

When you say, "...spoke out his impressions into clear air than behave like a snake and secret it in his heart...", what makes you think, expressing lust openly is not lust or acceptable? Your statement must be based on scriptures.

Here's a quick part of one for you:

Proverbs 5:18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be intoxicated with her love.
20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?
Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?

This says nothing about a prerequisite of physical attraction between bride and bridegroom for marriage.

I'm not sure what you a driving at here, I do not see what pornography has to do with finding your wife physically attractive? In fact I would venture the opposite opinion and say that pornography could most likely lead to a man derive less pleasure from his wife.

True. But what I was referring is the lust before marriage where most men expects the most beautiful women on globe to be their wife because of the wide spread porn on society.

 

[jasoncran]

:bigfrown levi, porn takes from the due rightfully OWED to the wife.it cheapens the very notion of what love is and also its all about the viewer not the viewed. with rightful place and Godly attraction its a mutual what can i do to please him or her.

i hate PORN! with a passion.

 

[Levi]

When you say, "...spoke out his impressions into clear air than behave like a snake and secret it in his heart...", what makes you think, expressing lust openly is not lust or acceptable? Your statement must be based on scriptures.

Whoah now! I think you need to be forthcoming with some scripture here. You say that this is an open expression of lust!

a: Define lust
b: where in the Bible is it unclean to comment on the beauty or attractiveness of a woman within the context and vocabulary of the day?

Lust is a spiritual problem and it can manifest itself in the form perverted sexual appetite and deviancy, commenting on the beauty of a woman is not within itself lust!

This says nothing about a prerequisite of physical attraction between bride and bridegroom for marriage.

It's quite plainly stating a mans need to be physically satisfied with his wife!

True. But what I was referring is the lust before marriage where most men expects the most beautiful women on globe to be their wife because of the wide spread porn on society.

If a person has a problem in his heart with lust then he's got a problem in his heart with lust!

It doesn't really matter what society is throwing at him he has a problem!

The pornography epidemic that has arisen with mass media is believe it or not more of a vexation on woman, it affects a woman's feelings of self worth and incites them to disrespect their bodys and treat themselves as common in order to gain a false sense of approval from men who are not interested in being in a monogamous relationship with them in any case. Its a viscious cycle that can only be broken in a person life by divine intervention.

I think that a man who seriously wants to have a wife and commit his heart and body to her as a life partner in fidelity will find the helpmate that God has set aside for him. And she will be pleasing to his eye.

 

[Levi]

:bigfrown levi, porn takes from the due rightfully OWED to the wife.it cheapens the very notion of what love is and also its all about the viewer not the viewed. with rightful place and Godly attraction its a mutual what can i do to please him or her.

i hate PORN! with a passion.

I agree! perhaps you misread my intent brother? I to hate pornography and believe it has absolutely no place in a marriage or in a persons life in on any level for that matter!

It is a vexation on society.

 

[felix]

where in the Bible is it unclean to comment on the beauty or attractiveness of a woman within the context and vocabulary of the day?

(Matt 12:36) "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

If God's name is glorified by your comment on your friend's wife, well, you can. If not, you have to give account on what you commented.

 

[Classik]

Lust is lust!!!! God Could pardon the first look (as it Could happen accidentally). The Second look is obviously intentional.

Oops! Pardon? No - wrong word. I was hoping to write: God does not count it as a sin to that fellow.

Hi welcome to the conversation. I need clarification on your statement here because it is quite wide and sweeping and has no actual point in it, it's the kind of statement that can lead to a lot of confusion.

Why do you feel you need pardoning if your eyes set upon something that you have no control over? Is that a sin?

What do you mean by the second look being intentional? what is it that you are referring to that a person may be looking at?

And please define your understanding of what lust is.

A 'strong sexual desire' should do. My basis is on what Christ says concerning Mattew5:28. (Perhaps I was a little jittery with your tone )

Example: you are walking with a friend down a path and he suddenly notices some females in bikin.
'Check out those curves in bikini down the pool!' says friend. 'I think the journey ends down there!'

You look. How focussed are you? Was it a reflex action? You simply look away. I do not think God condemns you at this point. But when you take another look it is obvious you have an intention.

My friend calls it admiration! She is wrong. Sin is being painted and beautified everyday.

what is it that you are referring to that a person may be looking at?

What is being looked at is obvious. The way a female looks could differ from the way a man looks. They are both lust. A man sees something extraordinary protruding from the chest region of a woman. He notices the magic of the waist. It is quite complex in women.

 

[childeye]

It used to be if a girl showed her ankle it was considered by some risque. A generation later it meant nothing just don't show the knee. A generation later who cares that a knee is showing? It's the thigh above the knee. All of this means these things are relative. Lust knows no bounds whether one looks or not. Lust must be a problem in the mind, a grass greener on the far side of the hill. An illusion.

 

[Levi]

It used to be if a girl showed her ankle it was considered by some risque. A generation later it meant nothing just don't show the knee. A generation later who cares that a knee is showing? It's the thigh above the knee. All of this means these things are relative. Lust knows no bounds whether one looks or not. Lust must be a problem in the mind, a grass greener on the far side of the hill. An illusion.

well said! I think it goes a step further though my self and has a spiritual component as well.

It does start in the mind but can travel to the heart of a person at which point they encounter spiritual problems. All sin starts in the battle ground of the mind.

"Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

This is why intsruction is so so important to young people.

"instruct a child in the right way when he is young and it will not leave him."

This is an area where I believe we must not beat young men or women up for having natural desires, yet we must teach them clearly and precisely what it means to be respectful of themselves, others and the word of God.

A puritanical approach can result in 'taboo' and shame over what is good and natural and an overly liberal result can have the reciprocal effect and create perversion and deviancy of the natural desire men and woman have for physical companionship.

Its a matter of respect for all involved.

 

[Levi]

A 'strong sexual desire' should do. My basis is on what Christ says concerning Mattew5:28. (Perhaps I was a little jittery with your tone )

A strong sexual desire is not what lust is, it is what it is 'a strong sexual desire', this could be quite legitimate if a man or a woman held this toward his or her legitimate partner or a person especially at puberty can just encounter it out of the blue.

(I get a little exasperated at peoples over simplistic and sweeping condemnations of heart conditions that can lead to a lot of unnecessary anx in other peoples lives. So hence my tone. I have three young boys and a girl that I am raising on my own and two are entering teenage stage so instruction in this area is key and it is literally a mine field!)

I feel it is important to get it right where a person is entering into sin and where they are just being a person.

Example: you are walking with a friend down a path and he suddenly notices some females in bikin.
'Check out those curves in bikini down the pool!' says friend. 'I think the journey ends down there!'

You look. How focussed are you? Was it a reflex action? You simply look away. I do not think God condemns you at this point. But when you take another look it is obvious you have an intention.

My friend calls it admiration! She is wrong. Sin is being painted and beautified everyday.

This is far to simplistic a view of the situation and believe me it can cause a person to live in somewhat of a prison which denies the freedom of Christ in a persons heart.

I think we need to be careful how we judge 'intent' and how this pertains to lust!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if someone intentionally exposes themselves to behavior or material that is designed specifically to arose, that it will have an effect on the persons heart.

That goes without saying.

But where we need to be careful is how we teach young people to deal with this fact of the world we live in. If we get it wrong we can do more harm than good.

Lust is a condition of the heart, it is also spiritual or has an evil spiritual component, it does not just pertain to sex but can be invoked by a number of different desires.

In the context of Matthew 5:25 Jesus was specifically talking about marriage and the subject was adultery. He removed all excuse under the law and raised the bar.

If a man looks upon a woman and (desires in his heart, i.e. he would if he could, have intercourse with her beyond a shadow of a doubt) lusts after her, Jesus will convict him of adultery because he has committed the act in his heart and mind already.

What is being looked at is obvious. The way a female looks could differ from the way a man looks. They are both lust. A man sees something extraordinary protruding from the chest region of a woman. He notices the magic of the waist. It is quite complex in women.

Be hard on yourself sure, but be careful what you put forward as a standard onto another when it comes to an issue of the heart that only God is qualified to judge.

The key issue here that we need to focus on teaching is 'respect', respect for our own bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, respect due to others and the rights of potential husbands or wives and above all respect for the Word of God.

A person who looks at another's body and desires to have illegitimate sex with him or her is akin to a person that looks at a house and wants to ransack the contents that belong to another. A robber so to speak!

Some people who know the Lord can look upon all manor of things and have no guilt in their hearts, it has to be this way or else no ministry could get done in the world.

In fact this is a mature heart and mind that can do these things, it is an immature mind skewed by sin that entertains the immoral as an option, and even worse it is a fallen heart that lusts for it.

"be in the world but not of it"

 

[childeye]

well said! I think it goes a step further though my self and has a spiritual component as well.

It does start in the mind but can travel to the heart of a person at which point they encounter spiritual problems. All sin starts in the battle ground of the mind.

"Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

This is why intsruction is so so important to young people.

"instruct a child in the right way when he is young and it will not leave him."

This is an area where I believe we must not beat young men or women up for having natural desires, yet we must teach them clearly and precisely what it means to be respectful of themselves, others and the word of God.

A puritanical approach can result in 'taboo' and shame over what is good and natural and an overly liberal result can have the reciprocal effect and create perversion and deviancy of the natural desire men and woman have for physical companionship.

Its a matter of respect for all involved.

Levi, I would say I would trust you to babysit my kids.

 

[felix]

It used to be if a girl showed her ankle it was considered by some risque. A generation later it meant nothing just don't show the knee. A generation later who cares that a knee is showing? It's the thigh above the knee. All of this means these things are relative. Lust knows no bounds whether one looks or not. Lust must be a problem in the mind, a grass greener on the far side of the hill. An illusion.

Very true.

God created man and woman naked. Nudity by itself is not a sin, but what grows in our hearts on seeing nudity is lust which becomes sin. Scripture warns us to run away and flee just like Joseph did because, we will fall into temptation if we think we can handle it.

 

[childeye]

Very true.

God created man and woman naked. Nudity by itself is not a sin, but what grows in our hearts on seeing nudity is lust which becomes sin. Scripture warns us to run away and flee just like Joseph did because, we will fall into temptation if we think we can handle it.

Not wanting to disagree with you Felix. But for what it's worth, I believe clothes are for the beholder. We felt ashamed and hid, not pranced around boasting, which indicates a fall in self esteem. We find fault in others and so condemn ourselves who are the same. We have a defiled conscience.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree! perhaps you misread my intent brother? I to hate pornography and believe it has absolutely no place in a marriage or in a persons life in on any level for that matter!

It is a vexation on society.

no, i wasnt missreading you. porn is an area of weakness for me. i have no intention of cheating on wifem but in essence that is what one does with these images.

 

[Classik]

A strong sexual desire is not what lust is, it is what it is 'a strong sexual desire', this could be quite legitimate if a man or a woman held this toward his or her legitimate partner or a person especially at puberty can just encounter it out of the blue.

Could you help interpreting that verse to me? We learn when we fellowship with one another. This is not just a forum - I call it a church.

(I get a little exasperated at peoples over simplistic and sweeping condemnations of heart conditions that can lead to a lot of unnecessary anx in other peoples lives. So hence my tone.

I know you never understood my use of 'jittery' and 'tone'. There was a smily too. You said I should do some clarification. So I was asking myself the question: 'I'm I really good at such matters?' I hope it is clear now.

I have three young boys and a girl that I am raising on my own and two are entering teenage stage so instruction in this area is key and it is literally a mine field!)

It is one of our challenges. Be encouraged. Train up a child in the way he should go - and when he is old he shall not depart from it. Usually, environment - and friends - to a great extent influence the perspective of teenagers. Good luck to you as you raise them in the fear of the Lord .

I feel it is important to get it right where a person is entering into sin and where they are just being a person.

I don't think I understood you here.

Some people who know the Lord can look upon all manor of things and have no guilt in their hearts, it has to be this way or else no ministry could get done in the world.

I agree with you. There are people like that. And there are many who are not like that.

In fact this is a mature heart and mind that can do these things, it is an immature mind skewed by sin that entertains the immoral as an option, and even worse it is a fallen heart that lusts for it.

Excellent!

"be in the world but not of it"

Extraordinary conclusion! I am glad this summary came here. You simply deserve a presidential handshake. Thanks, dude. I pray we make it our song.

 

[Asyncritus]

Consider Joseph and David.

Gen 39.7 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that his master’s wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master’s wife, Behold, my master knoweth not what is with me in the house, and he hath put all that he hath into my hand:
9 he is not greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.

It would be unreal to think that Joseph did not want her, in the face of these blatantly suggestive advances.

Lust was there - but he refused to take it to the natural conclusion. He did not, for example, say, I don't want you, you look like the north end of a southbound cow.

He said 'I won't do this, because God has said 'No, I'm not to do this evil'.

The presence of desire, lust, is not a sin.

Here's the difference:

2 Sam 11.2 And it came to pass at eventide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king’s house: and from the roof he saw a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon.

There is the desire, the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh commingling...

Now the lust conceives...

3 And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?

[Up to this point, sin had not been committed - but it now moves forward into tragedy and death].

... and brings forth sin:

4 And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; (for she was purified from her uncleanness ) and she returned unto her house.

What is the difference between Joseph's lust and David's?

Answer:

It lies in the decision, the final, fatal, irrevocable decision to do the evil. That is what we must avoid.

Jesus was subject to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life - Heb.4.15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He faced the temptations, felt their full force, and decided to walk away from them.

The temptations themselves were not sin, or He too would have been a sinner. The decision to act on them would have been.

I read Frederick Forsyth's The Day of the Jackal, as many of you must have done too. There is an exactly parallel situation described in that book.

The Jackal accepted a commission to assassinate de Gaulle, and from that moment on, if the French police had caught him, he could have been shot on sight quite justifiably, despite the fact that he had not yet shot de Gaulle.

He had accepted the commission. He had decided that he would do this thing, and went forward in his endeavours.

Had he walked away, there was nothing he could be punished for.

I see that as the difference between lust and sin.

 

[Levi]

Consider Joseph and David.

Gen 39.7 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that his master’s wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master’s wife, Behold, my master knoweth not what is with me in the house, and he hath put all that he hath into my hand:
9 he is not greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.

It would be unreal to think that Joseph did not want her, in the face of these blatantly suggestive advances.

Lust was there - but he refused to take it to the natural conclusion. He did not, for example, say, I don't want you, you look like the north end of a southbound cow.

He said 'I won't do this, because God has said 'No, I'm not to do this evil'.

The presence of desire, lust, is not a sin.

Here's the difference:

2 Sam 11.2 And it came to pass at eventide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king’s house: and from the roof he saw a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon.

There is the desire, the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh commingling...

Now the lust conceives...

3 And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?

[Up to this point, sin had not been committed - but it now moves forward into tragedy and death].

... and brings forth sin:

4 And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; (for she was purified from her uncleanness ) and she returned unto her house.

What is the difference between Joseph's lust and David's?

Answer:

It lies in the decision, the final, fatal, irrevocable decision to do the evil. That is what we must avoid.

Jesus was subject to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life - Heb.4.15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He faced the temptations, felt their full force, and decided to walk away from them.

The temptations themselves were not sin, or He too would have been a sinner. The decision to act on them would have been.

I read Frederick Forsyth's The Day of the Jackal, as many of you must have done too. There is an exactly parallel situation described in that book.

The Jackal accepted a commission to assassinate de Gaulle, and from that moment on, if the French police had caught him, he could have been shot on sight quite justifiably, despite the fact that he had not yet shot de Gaulle.

He had accepted the commission. He had decided that he would do this thing, and went forward in his endeavours.

Had he walked away, there was nothing he could be punished for.

I see that as the difference between lust and sin.

I know it may seem like hair splitting but I would summarize by saying its the difference between 'lust and natural human reactions'

lust is the sin, but it doesn't become lust until as you point out someone purposes in their heart to do it, then it goes from natural or legitimate to illegitimate or perverted.

walking away or cutting and dividing in your mind using the Word,then purposing accordingly maintains legitimacy and you are without sin in the matter.