Lying

[stovebolts]

It's also deceptive to make it appear as if that was all I said.
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Gary, chill brother. I'm not the bad guy. I'm on my phone and that makes it difficult to qoute for me. I asked you to clarify, and you did. You can go back and read what you wrote. It was right after the post you quoted on yourself to defend yourself.

Did I set a trap for you? Yes I did. But I didn't do it to make you look like a fool or anything like that. I did it in hopes you would pause, and start to think openly.

But what I see, is that it has put you on the defense and now its not about finding the truth, but rather it has become about defending our pride and I am sorry for placing you in a trap you could not escape. I will not lead you down that road again.

If I have insulted you, I am sorry. It was not my intent.

 

[stovebolts]

Your argument falls flat when we note in Scripture that God views our thoughts as our speech, for "out of the heart the mouth speaketh" (Lk 6:45). So for God (because of who He is) Sarah's thoughts and speech were identical.

As for your contention that Christians must not think in "black and white terms", that is a purely humanistic idea, since in Scripture there are no "grey areas" when it comes to sin. Sin is sin. Lying is a sin. Men may lie for good reasons, and God may forgive the sin of their lies. But He will not categorize lies as truth, since He Himself is Truth.

To even suggest that "God could be perceived as a liar" is to suggest blasphemy.

It only falls flat when you think with your bias.

And yes, to one who knows not our Lord could perceive God as s liar. I know atheists who think far worse things than that.

But about blasphemy, how do you respond? Do you respond like the religious elite of Jesus day where they defended their belief by having the son of God killed? Or do you participate with the suffering of Christ and allow yourself to be hung on a cross and mocked?

I forgive you.

 

[smaller]

That incident does not indicate that God condones lying. However, it does indicate that God will send liars to those who prefer lies to the truth. One must read the whole chapter to see this.

Scripture says (Prov 19:5,9) "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape". This verse is repeated twice in the same chapter for emphasis.

Thought I had noted that prior. Lying by God sending lying spirits to someone falls under the general class of retributive actions. Doesn't mean that it isn't lying though, which seems to be your claim.

God works evil toward evil and seems to have no hesitations to do so.

 

[jasonc]

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God said that? Well, that would be under authority then and not a sin. What passage if I may ask?

how does god exactly send spirits of delusion?
no body gives that thought. but since you insisted.
2 chronicles 18:21. read the whole context.

 

[jasonc]

I can agree with that brother. The greater evil. That says a mouthful.
The feds really asked the mob to do duty on the shores of NY?! I didn't know that. That strikes me as a very wise decision. Not that I'm pro mob or gangsterism, but those guys are for real and serious. Pros.

yes and it also likely cost mens lives as they were surely breaking the law and its ignored.they might have kept it low during ww2 but after im sure they did some bad stuff again

 

[Gary]

Did I set a trap for you? Yes I did. But I didn't do it to make you look like a fool or anything like that. I did it in hopes you would pause, and start to think openly.

But what I see, is that it has put you on the defense and now its not about finding the truth, but rather it has become about defending our pride and I am sorry for placing you in a trap you could not escape. I will not lead you down that road again.

I don't see myself falling into your "trap". You tried to get me to contradict my stance that every lie is a sin. I stand by my convictions. Lying is a sin and you'll find nothing in the Word of God to contradict that.

If I'm defending anything, it's that truth.

 

[Edward]

I'm not saying it was deceptive... Hence the ? Gary said in a previous post that intentionally withholding the truth was deceptive.
But I think its a bit more than critical thinking... I think its about not saying things for the sake of peace when whatever you say doesn't better the situation.

Oh ok, sorry brother, I'll pay more attention to the punctuation now, lol.

Keeping the peace is important. But there is a way to withhold information without lying. Many ways if one thinks about it. To learn to do it (I am learning to do this right now), one has to think a little differently than what they are used to, that's all. We have to keep in mind that as New creatures in Christ, we are to be developing a renewed mind along with our brand new spirit that the Lord gives us when we received the 'Born Again' status. The renewed mind doesn't come overnight and it doesn't happen from Gods power without our effort. So we have to learn (or be willing to) learn to have a new way of thinking than the old man used. That's part of that, become as little children directive given to us.

People seek the mind of Christ, but it's like most people think it happens automatically. Like God will just go SHAZAM and here you are a new man, new mind, and all we had to do was ask...No. Diligence, search the scriptures daily, think on these things, don't think on those things, it says stuff like that all over scripture! Start paying attention to how many times that Jesus responded to the disciples with some sort of statement like, 'Don't think that way..." stuff like that. He did it a lot!

If us Christians would spend more time in the Word, and DO the things it says...we would develop a new way of thinking and achieve the renewed mind, the mind of Christ Himself! Like Philippians 4:8 says:

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you./(KJV)

We think on those things. We cast down bad thoughts and do not dwell on them. Soon it starts sinking in and we start living it by instinct. What would God do? How would He feel about it? Well, I know because I have read His word so much (which were His thoughts before being written down) that I know how he would think about this or that...You start thinking like Him, acting like Him, because you've spent so much time in His Word...

I believe that's how it works. I'm not there yet, I'm not perfect, and a slow spiritual learner (cough cough)...but that's it and the way I am going...

Does that make sense brother?

I'd bet money that Jesus didn't tell little white lies. He didn't have to, He had the mind of His Father and His God and found choice words which kept the peace and also didn't make Him feel like He had to lie. We can do this if we try.

 

[stovebolts]

What do you mean by claim it as the whole truth? What if I conviently withheld the whole truth and only told you the parts that I wanted to? Is that still a lie?

That's being deceitful and dishonest.

Gary
If you can follow my reasoning, I then posted:
So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”

13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?

Clearly God withheld the whole truth because he did not tell Abraham "and my lord is old".

According to what you wrote above in response to my very direct question, God would be deceitful and dishonest.

I didn't write this Gary. You did. It was the trap I set, and you put your foot in it.

I now see that you don't bend. Your ridged and hard set in your thinking and your ways. I now see that when cornered, you don't know how to say, "I know I wrote that, but its not what I meant". Instead, your defensive and argumentative.

I did not realize these things about you, so please forgive me for being nieve. It was wrong of me to set such a trap and I should know better. Where I had hoped you would pause and consider, I was met with opposition. For putting you in that spot, I am sorry.

It is clear you and others won't consider a circumstance where mercy trumps guilt when doing the right thing for the right reason so I will have my final say and wish you all well.

Sin is to miss the mark. Its when we make the wrong choice because there was a better way to live. A better choice to make. Sometimes we have to make choices we wish we didn't have to make and they are tough decisions. We do our best as we decide what is best for the circumstance. In those places, we weigh our morals and values to make the best choice available. If we make the right choice, we hit the mark. If we miss the mark, then hopefully we see our faults and grow.

I believe saving a life carries more value than being honest to an enemy. I will probably never be in that position, but if I ever where, I would never want to feel guilty that I lied to save a life. If I met somebody in that situation, I wouldn't want to guilt them over it either. They made the right choice for the tight reasons. They hit the mark. And to say they didn't should be shameful.

Grace and peace.

 

[Gary]

According to what you wrote above in response to my very direct question, God would be deceitful and dishonest.

I didn't write this Gary. You did.

No, actually I didn't.

This is what was actually said:

If you only provide a part of the truth but claim it is the whole truth, then yes it's lying.

What do you mean by claim it as the whole truth? What if I conviently withheld the whole truth and only told you the parts that I wanted to? Is that still a lie?

That's being deceitful and dishonest.

As you can see, no where in this little exchange did I say God was deceitful and dishonest. When I made that comment I was referring to you. You said: "What if "I" conveniently withheld the whole truth...". No mention of God withholding anything. Just you.

It was the trap I set, and you put your foot in it.

Ok.

I believe saving a life carries more value than being honest to an enemy. I will probably never be in that position, but if I ever where, I would never want to feel guilty that I lied to save a life. If I met somebody in that situation, I wouldn't want to guilt them over it either. They made the right choice for the tight reasons. They hit the mark. And to say they didn't should be shameful.

We were discussing whether or not lying is a sin, not the value of human lives vs honesty.

 

[stovebolts]

No, actually I didn't.

This is what was actually said:






As you can see, no where in this little exchange did I say God was deceitful and dishonest. When I made that comment I was referring to you. You said: "What if "I" conveniently withheld the whole truth...". No mention of God withholding anything. Just you.




Ok.




We were discussing whether or not lying is a sin, not the value of human lives vs honesty.

We must have been having 2 completely different conversations....

And no, I do not believe God holds us to a higher standard than himself.... As reflected in your previous post.

Enjoy your day.

 

[Gary]

We must have been having 2 completely different conversations....

Weird huh?

And no, I do not believe God holds us to a higher standard than himself.... As reflected in your previous post.

I don't recall posting anything regarding the standards that God holds us to. Perhaps you could direct us to the post in question.

Thanks.
.

 

[stovebolts]

Am

Weird huh?




I don't recall posting anything regarding the standards that God holds us to. Perhaps you could direct us to the post in question.

Thanks.
.

Weird huh?




I don't recall posting anything regarding the standards that God holds us to. Perhaps you could direct us to the post in question.

Thanks.
.

Amazing! I don't recall you posting anything either!

Weird how that works.

Love ya brother. {Hugs}