Man Conceived Religions

[Highway54]

It is definitely entertaining to read the conclusions of those with the following mindset:
Premise 1: God is just and loving and righteous and merciful, etc.
Premise 2: I define what it is to be just and loving and righteous and merciful, etc.
Conclusion: God would never violate my definitions of what He is like so I will find a way to mold scripture so premise 1 and premise 2 are always true.

Example: God is love therefore He is fair and therefore He must love everyone and therefore He is obligated that all have a chance to be saved and therefore prevenient grace, age of accountability doctrine, Jesus goes to hell to give people second chance, annihilation, purgatory, yahda, yahda, yahda.

.... and usually there is a couple of verses that can be used to support their case
.... and thus the hermeneutic to use to compare explicit verses to implicit verses .... good luck

Do you ever just simply answer a question Fred?

 

[Highway54]

You're welcome.


They go to "eternal punishment" as per Matt 25:46.


Right, which I have stated.


Here is where a problem arises. You asked me what the meanings of "Sheol" and "Hades" were, but now you are implicitly bringing in gehenna. You are essentially equating Hades with gehenna. However, gehenna is the final destination of unbelievers and, apart from one instance of Hades and one of tartaroo, is the only word translated as "hell" in the ESV and other versions. This is the fault of the KJV for translating three different NT words as "hell."

You will notice that I said: "Hell is just an English word used for final destination of the unrighteous, which isn't Hades." Jesus used the metaphor of gehenna for the final destination of the unrighteous, and Revelation says it's the lake of fire. Therefore, gehenna is the lake of fire, which is Hell proper.

They go to "eternal punishment" as per Matt 25:46.

Yes sir very true, but what is that punishment?

Right, which I have stated.

You stated it a bit differently, and although we agree, we do not understand it the same way. What is the condition of the residents of hell sir?

Here is where a problem arises. You asked me what the meanings of "Sheol" and "Hades" were, but now you are implicitly bringing in gehenna. You are essentially equating Hades with gehenna. However, gehenna is the final destination of unbelievers and, apart from one instance of Hades and one of tartaroo, is the only word translated as "hell" in the ESV and other versions. This is the fault of the KJV for translating three different NT words as "hell."

You will notice that I said: "Hell is just an English word used for final destination of the unrighteous, which isn't Hades." Jesus used the metaphor of gehenna for the final destination of the unrighteous, and Revelation says it's the lake of fire. Therefore, gehenna is the lake of fire, which is Hell proper.

I commend you sir, you are very advanced, and quite correct, the lake of fire is a fitting symbol of Gehenna and in reality is Genenna. Tartarus is totally unrelated to hell in any sense, other than the fact that the lake of fire was basically created for those who have that judgment. That term is a judgment and applies exclusively to the demons, including satan.

Lets see if we agree on Gehenna, do you believe that it is a judgment rather than a place, and that those with that judgment do not get resurrected as there is no redemption for them?

 

[Highway54]

So, according to the passage from Luke 12 that I provided, there are degrees of punishment for unbelievers. If everyone is annihilated when thrown into the lake of fire, then when does that punishment take place? If not in the lake of fire, then those unbelievers who die just prior to Christ's return or are alive at the time of judgement, just simply get annihilated, even if they were as evil as Hitler, alongside those who were relatively decent people. Is that justice?


"All who have died," including unbelievers?

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (ESV)

This is only speaking of believers and in the spiritual sense of having been "buried with him by baptism into death" and "crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing."


No, not at all new to me. I just don't see anywhere in the Bible where the lake of fire results in annihilation.

What is your understanding of what the second death means Free?

 

[Highway54]

The "those who have died" in Rom 6 are those who have been killed with Christ at their water baptism into His death.
So to say "all who have died have been acquitted of sin" is really a misnomer.
Had you said "all who have died with Christ have been acquitted of sin", I would agree with you.

HI Hope, I believe those verses apply to all who die. Only those who have sinned against the holy spirit have no redemption. Everyone with the exception of them will receive a resurrection, and have the same opportunities for everlasting life, the gift that God gives.

 

[Free]

Yes sir very true, but what is that punishment?

I have given this already:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

https://christianforums.net/threads/man-conceived-religions.95271/page-17#post-1749806

You stated it a bit differently, and although we agree, we do not understand it the same way. What is the condition of the residents of hell sir?

Alive and conscious.

Lets see if we agree on Gehenna, do you believe that it is a judgment rather than a place, and that those with that judgment do not get resurrected as there is no redemption for them?

It is the final destination of the unrighteous who have been resurrected at the Judgement (Rev 20:13-15).

What is your understanding of what the second death means Free?

Eternal separation from God with no chance of redemption.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

 

[Hopeful]

HI Hope, I believe those verses apply to all who die. Only those who have sinned against the holy spirit have no redemption. Everyone with the exception of them will receive a resurrection, and have the same opportunities for everlasting life, the gift that God gives.

All will be resurrected, but as Jesus said..."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)
Do good, and live forever with Jesus.

 

[Highway54]

I have given this already:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

https://christianforums.net/threads/man-conceived-religions.95271/page-17#post-1749806


Alive and conscious.


It is the final destination of the unrighteous who have been resurrected at the Judgement (Rev 20:13-15).


Eternal separation from God with no chance of redemption.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

Alive and conscious.

We mostly agree with what you said, except what death (the punishment) is. The Bible defines death: Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ec 9:6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

The Bible also identified the lake of fire as the second death, in other words permanent destruction, gone.

 

[Highway54]

All will be resurrected, but as Jesus said..."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)
Do good, and live forever with Jesus.

Jn 5:28,29 is referring to those in hades Hope. Gehenna is different. Gehenna is represented by the lake of fire in Revelation, which is a permanent judgment. There is no justice in resurrecting them and killing them off again. Jn 5:28,29 is stated a bit differently in Acts 24:15

 

[Robert Pate]

All will be resurrected, but as Jesus said..."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)
Do good, and live forever with Jesus.

No one will be saved by doing good works, Romans 3:20. Salvation is by faith in Christ and his Gospel, Ephesians 2:8.

 

[Hopeful]

Jn 5:28,29 is referring to those in hades Hope. Gehenna is different. Gehenna is represented by the lake of fire in Revelation, which is a permanent judgment.

They are both referring to something less than heaven.
Why split hairs?
You don't want to experience either place.

There is no justice in resurrecting them and killing them off again. Jn 5:28,29 is stated a bit differently in Acts 24:15

Justice, according to who?
God has warned what disobedience will cost us for thousands of years.
As Jesus did say that sinners hate God, in Matt 6:24, justice for some will be fulfilled with a second death.

 

[Hopeful]

No one will be saved by doing good works, Romans 3:20. Salvation is by faith in Christ and his Gospel, Ephesians 2:8.

That is correct.
But nobody will be saved for doing evil works either.
Illustrate Jesus' life and death on earth now, and be saved on the day of judgement.

 

[Robert Pate]

That is correct.
But nobody will be saved for doing evil works either.
Illustrate Jesus' life and death on earth now, and be saved on the day of judgement.

No one can be like Jesus because there is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10.

 

[Free]

We mostly agree with what you said, except what death (the punishment) is. The Bible defines death: Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ec 9:6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

Death is certainly physical, but it isn't quite so straightforward:

Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD.”
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.
Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. (ESV)

Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
Psa 49:15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. (ESV)

Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (ESV)

Luk 12:4 “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

So, it seems that we have a soul that survives physical death which can be destroyed in hell (gehenna), but will not necessarily be destroyed. Just as physical death is the separation of body and soul, "death" can also refer to spiritual separation from God.

The Bible also identified the lake of fire as the second death, in other words permanent destruction, gone.

Not really. I even gave a verse which says something quite different:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

Why is it that you have so far avoided addressing my argument, using the passage in Luke 12, that there are degrees of punishment for unbelievers? I also asked you previously:

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?

 

[Fastfredy0]

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?

Aside: Sucks to grow old if you a non-believer.
Assumption: you do the same "X" amount of sin each year for which you will pay a penalty in hell
So ... if you live 10 years you have 10X suffering, but if you live 70 years you have 70X suffering ... interesting implications ....

hmmm .... wonder if that works in reverse
Your a believer and do (technically the Spirit is the cause of you doing) "X" amount of good things for which you will be rewarded in heaven.
So ... if you live 10 years you have 10X rewards, but if you live 70 years you have 70X rewards... interesting implications .... "live long and prosper" (Spock, Star Trek, numerous episodes)

 

[Highway54]

They are both referring to something less than heaven.
Why split hairs?
You don't want to experience either place.

Justice, according to who?
God has warned what disobedience will cost us for thousands of years.
As Jesus did say that sinners hate God, in Matt 6:24, justice for some will be fulfilled with a second death.

They are both referring to something less than heaven.

Of course, hades is the abode of the dead, gehenna is a judgment of death. All those in hades will be resurrected, and even those who go to heaven until the first resurrection went there including Jesus. Are you familiar that hell will be emptied Hope? The resurrection will empty it and then with no more death, hell will no longer be necessary and they will both be cast into the lake of fire, eternally gone Rev 20:13,14. When you read those verses were you as excited as I was when I first discovered that? Truly great news isn't it?

justice for some will be fulfilled with a second death.

That is why the lake of fire is a fitting symbol for gehenna Hope.

 

[Highway54]

Death is certainly physical, but it isn't quite so straightforward:

Num 16:30 But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD.”
Num 16:31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.
Num 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. (ESV)

Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
Psa 49:15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. (ESV)

Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (ESV)

Luk 12:4 “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

So, it seems that we have a soul that survives physical death which can be destroyed in hell (gehenna), but will not necessarily be destroyed. Just as physical death is the separation of body and soul, "death" can also refer to spiritual separation from God.


Not really. I even gave a verse which says something quite different:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

Why is it that you have so far avoided addressing my argument, using the passage in Luke 12, that there are degrees of punishment for unbelievers? I also asked you previously:

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?

So, it seems that we have a soul that survives physical death which can be destroyed in hell (gehenna), but will not necessarily be destroyed

God said you will die, satan said you cannot die.

and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

If God is that evil, I will be right there beside you sir! It would explain why satan had the gumption to stand against him.

But for now I believe Him when He defines death, and the lake of fire being the second death.

 

[Free]

God said you will die,

And what happened? Did they immediately die? Adam lived 930 years and then died, but the very moment he ate of the fruit, he was spiritually separated from God. That is what is meant by spiritual death. Physical death is separation of body and soul; spiritual death is separation of soul from God.

satan said you cannot die.

Where did he say that?

If God is that evil, I will be right there beside you sir! It would explain why satan had the gumption to stand against him.

And, yet, you did not address my main argument against this assertion.

Something to consider, taken from an article in The Apologetics Study Bible, written by J. P. Moreland, and titled "Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism?":

"Does the Bible teach that the unsaved will suffer in hell for only a time and then be annihilated? Some argue from Scripture that the flames in hell are literal and point out the flames destroy whatever they burn. Further, they claim that infinitely long punishment is disproportionate to a finite life of sin. Thus extinction is morally preferable to everlasting punishment.

The scriptural argument is weak. Clear texts whose explicit intent is to teach the extent of the afterlife overtly compare the everlasting conscious life of the saved and the unsaved (Dn 12:2; Mt 25:41,46). Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely figures of speech for judgment (cp. Heb 12:29; 2 Th 1:8). Otherwise, contradictions about hell are apparent (for example, it is dark despite being filled with flames).

The moral argument fails as well. For one thing, the severity of a crime is not a function of the time it takes to commit it. Thus rejection of the mercy of an infinite God could appropriately warrant an unending, conscious separation from God. Further, everlasting hell is morally superior to annihilation. That becomes evident from the following consideration.

Regarding the end of life, sanctity-of-life advocates reject active euthanasia (the intentional killing of a patient), while the quality-of-life advocates embrace it. In the sanctity-of-life view, one gets one's value, not from the quality of one's life, but from the sheer fact that one exists in God's image. The quality-of-life advocates see the value of human life in its quality; life is not inherently valuable. Thus the sanctity-of-life position has a higher, not a lower, moral regard for the dignity of human life.

The traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the tradition view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism." (p. 1292)

If God does or decrees something, it is always just and never evil, even if you don't like it.

But for now I believe Him when He defines death, and the lake of fire being the second death.

You are believing a cherry-picked definition that doesn't take into account all that the Bible says on the matter, as I pointed out. Besides, I believe I pointed out already that your definition doesn't fit with the lake of fire. The dead are first resurrected and judged, then Death, physical death, is thrown into the lake of fire, along with any whose names aren't found written in the book of life. Along with Rev 20:10, the case is strongest that unbelievers will be alive and conscious for eternity in hell.

Also, you still haven't responded to my questions, although I have asked them a few times. Based on Luke 12:45-48, when do those punishments occur? Do all get the same punishment or is God just and gives different punishments based on offenses?

 

[Hopeful]

Of course, hades is the abode of the dead, gehenna is a judgment of death. All those in hades will be resurrected, and even those who go to heaven until the first resurrection went there including Jesus. Are you familiar that hell will be emptied Hope? The resurrection will empty it and then with no more death, hell will no longer be necessary and they will both be cast into the lake of fire, eternally gone Rev 20:13,14. When you read those verses were you as excited as I was when I first discovered that? Truly great news isn't it?

That is why the lake of fire is a fitting symbol for gehenna Hope.

I like to delineate between the grave and hell, as most think of hell as a place of fire without end.
When I mean grave, I just say grave.
When I mean hell, I just say lake of fire.
Both grave and hell will be tossed into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14)
I had heard of and read about hell for many years, and knew I was surely worthy of it.
My excitement came when I heard I could get a good conscience toward God by getting baptized. (1 Peter 3:21)
As I learned of all that water baptism entails, my excitement grew.

 

[Hopeful]

And what happened? Did they immediately die? Adam lived 930 years and then died, but the very moment he ate of the fruit, he was spiritually separated from God. That is what is meant by spiritual death. Physical death is separation of body and soul; spiritual death is separation of soul from God.

Did God say "immediately"?

 

[Highway54]

And what happened? Did they immediately die? Adam lived 930 years and then died, but the very moment he ate of the fruit, he was spiritually separated from God. That is what is meant by spiritual death. Physical death is separation of body and soul; spiritual death is separation of soul from God.


Where did he say that?


And, yet, you did not address my main argument against this assertion.

Something to consider, taken from an article in The Apologetics Study Bible, written by J. P. Moreland, and titled "Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism?":

"Does the Bible teach that the unsaved will suffer in hell for only a time and then be annihilated? Some argue from Scripture that the flames in hell are literal and point out the flames destroy whatever they burn. Further, they claim that infinitely long punishment is disproportionate to a finite life of sin. Thus extinction is morally preferable to everlasting punishment.

The scriptural argument is weak. Clear texts whose explicit intent is to teach the extent of the afterlife overtly compare the everlasting conscious life of the saved and the unsaved (Dn 12:2; Mt 25:41,46). Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely figures of speech for judgment (cp. Heb 12:29; 2 Th 1:8). Otherwise, contradictions about hell are apparent (for example, it is dark despite being filled with flames).

The moral argument fails as well. For one thing, the severity of a crime is not a function of the time it takes to commit it. Thus rejection of the mercy of an infinite God could appropriately warrant an unending, conscious separation from God. Further, everlasting hell is morally superior to annihilation. That becomes evident from the following consideration.

Regarding the end of life, sanctity-of-life advocates reject active euthanasia (the intentional killing of a patient), while the quality-of-life advocates embrace it. In the sanctity-of-life view, one gets one's value, not from the quality of one's life, but from the sheer fact that one exists in God's image. The quality-of-life advocates see the value of human life in its quality; life is not inherently valuable. Thus the sanctity-of-life position has a higher, not a lower, moral regard for the dignity of human life.

The traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the tradition view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism." (p. 1292)

If God does or decrees something, it is always just and never evil, even if you don't like it.


You are believing a cherry-picked definition that doesn't take into account all that the Bible says on the matter, as I pointed out. Besides, I believe I pointed out already that your definition doesn't fit with the lake of fire. The dead are first resurrected and judged, then Death, physical death, is thrown into the lake of fire, along with any whose names aren't found written in the book of life. Along with Rev 20:10, the case is strongest that unbelievers will be alive and conscious for eternity in hell.

Also, you still haven't responded to my questions, although I have asked them a few times. Based on Luke 12:45-48, when do those punishments occur? Do all get the same punishment or is God just and gives different punishments based on offenses?

And what happened? Did they immediately die? Adam lived 930 years and then died, but the very moment he ate of the fruit, he was spiritually separated from God. That is what is meant by spiritual death.

Totally agree.

Physical death is separation of body and soul; spiritual death is separation of soul from God.

No sir, soul literally means breathing creature, when the breath of life leaves us we are dead

Where did he say that?

Gen 3:4

And, yet, you did not address my main argument against this assertion.

I think we agree on what Sheol and Hades are Free.

I believe I pointed out already that your definition doesn't fit with the lake of fire.

This is were we fall into disagreement Free, we have both agreed that gehenna is represented by the lake of fire. I think our disagreement comes from what we understand the second death to mean. Would you like to discuss what gehenna is?