Mary, the mother of the Lord

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, but that means to say that all people are born spiritually perfect or else they wouldn't need to be born "again" since that implies a second spiritual birth where the first birth ended in death.

No it doesn't. Everybody is born with original sin, nobody is born "spiritually perfect".

How so?

How not so?

I don't believe the original sin theory is accurate. Did we inherit the consequences of the original sin? Yes, I believe that. Did we actually inherit Adam and Eve's literal sin? No I don't think so.

I think so because Paul said so in Rom. 5:12, sin entered the world through Adam. If there's no original sin, then there's no need for salvation through the blood of Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes Jesus is my Lord and Savior and I fully believe he is the Messiah and Son of God. No contest there. Neither he nor his Father called him God though. Jesus was calling his Father God, praying to Him, worshipping Him, got his power/authority from Him, and said He is the only true God. What is your issue with others having the same God as Jesus?

Who do you think was worshiping a lowly carpenter (or stonemason or craftsman) from Nazerath? Haven't you realized that you're with the religious elites at his time who false charged him of blasphemy, which means claiming yourself as God, and condemned him to death?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It doesn't directly call the men who were there the LORD though. To me it looks like circumstantial evidence to interpret it one way or the other. Some versions actually do refer to the men as "Lord" and others say just "lord." So people are split between whether those people are God or not. I settle it by taking more verses into consideration. I personally don't believe they are God or that God is a human or ever said He would be.

Then that’s your own disbelief. God has three common titles in the OT: Elohim, Adonai and YHWH, usually translated as God, LORD and LORD God. Elohim is the vaguest one, it basically just means “deity”, which could be any pagan deity, it is the title “Adonai” that distinguishes him from those pagan deities, making him the unique Hebrew God, and later his personal name YHWH was revealed to Moses, also for the purpose of distinguishing himself from the Egyptian pagan gods such as Isis and Ra. Wherever such a title is written in cap, that’s referring to the Creator God.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is God.
Jesus was sinless. Only God is good so only Jesus is good.

Not according to scripture. I asked where the Bible says that. It doesn't.

what does this mean?
does it mean we ate the fruit too? if so then no. i know of no Bible verse stating that.
or does it mean we inherit a tendency to sin? well then yes it does. selfishness comes naturally.

Jesus is descended directly from Adam and Adam from God and yet Adam sinned. Sinning has nothing to do with some nature we inherited. Jesus didn't sin. So how do you explain that?

 

[Runningman]

Who do you think was worshiping a lowly carpenter (or stonemason or craftsman) from Nazerath? Haven't you realized that you're with the religious elites at his time who false charged him of blasphemy, which means claiming yourself as God, and condemned him to death?

Bowing to Jesus isn't true worship according to Jesus' teachings. He said the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. He didn't prescribe any other kind of worship to himself or anyone aside from the Father. So yes, Jesus was bowed to (the translate this as worship most of the time) but this isn't to be confused with deifying Jesus. However, I am not accusing Jesus of being God like the religious establishment was at the time, you are doing that.


John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[Runningman]

Then that’s your own disbelief. God has three common titles in the OT: Elohim, Adonai and YHWH, usually translated as God, LORD and LORD God. Elohim is the vaguest one, it basically just means “deity”, which could be any pagan deity, it is the title “Adonai” that distinguishes him from those pagan deities, making him the unique Hebrew God, and later his personal name YHWH was revealed to Moses, also for the purpose of distinguishing himself from the Egyptian pagan gods such as Isis and Ra. Wherever such a title is written in cap, that’s referring to the Creator God.

Adonai and elohim can refer to the Almighty God, but it depends on the context. Those words sometimes refer to men, angels, or gods, but YHWH is always the Lord God Almighty who, according to the Old Testament is not Jesus. It can be proven that Jesus is not YHWH using just Psalms and Hebrews. Just compare these verses below.

In the Old Testament YHWH speaking is the Father speaking to His Son in the New Testament. This means the LORD is God the Father and Jesus isn't God.

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.

Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father”

Psalm 110
1The LORD said to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

Hebrews 1
13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?

 

[Runningman]

No it doesn't. Everybody is born with original sin, nobody is born "spiritually perfect".

Then at what point did you have necessity to be born a second time?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

However, I am not accusing Jesus of being God like the religious establishment was at the time, you are doing that.

No, you are. You keep denying his godliness as the religious elites did, I don't. And you won't worship in spirit and truth without Jesus, because he's the way, the truth, and the life, no one goes to the father except through him.

Adonai and elohim can refer to the Almighty God, but it depends on the context.

The context is Gen 18 - and Gen 17 - is crystal clear, it was none other than the Almighty God who visited Abraham, for the same matter of a promised heir.

Then at what point did you have necessity to be born a second time?

At the point when the Holy Spirit descends upon you like it did upon Jesus. You own contribution to your spiritual birth is as much as your own contribution to your physical birth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In the Old Testament YHWH speaking is the Father speaking to His Son in the New Testament. This means the LORD is God the Father and Jesus isn't God.

The God the Son and God the Father are one, Jn. 10:30. Like you the person behind the screen and this avatar on this forum are one.

 

[Rodger]

In Luke 1, Elizabeth refers to Mary as the mother of the Lord. So when Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord, is Elizabeth referring to Mary being the mother of a human Lord or a God Lord?

Luke 1
43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Runningman, I would first of all say to you that the literal Greek term kyrios used by Elizabeth refers to a master or is to be used in place of the English word "sir."

When we consider CONTEXT as we must to properly understand the Scriptures, we then see that In context, Elizabeth is celebrating Jesus as her Messiah and Savior.

We see that same word used in Luke 2:11 and in John 20:28.

She realizes that the Messiah her own son, John, will proclaim, is growing inside of Mary's body at that very moment.

Now there is only one way to explain how she knew that......Supernaturally!!!

Elizabeth then became the 1st person to worship Messiah Jesus! And Elizabeth did not worship Mary. She said to her, “Blessed are you among women,” not above women. Just because Mary brought the Savior into the world did not put her on a pedestal, but she lifted up all womanhood and all motherhood! The Christmas story is a woman’s story. A man had nothing to do with it.

 

[Rodger]

Many times I guess. So if I understand you correctly, you say that the nature of God is God?

Actually my brother, there are several "Elements" that make up the Nature of God.

I would say that "Holiness" would be one of the 1st things to mention. Holiness would be the foundation.

Then He is by nature , "Sovereign".

Another key aspect of God’s nature is His "Immutability."

Then His nature is that He is "Omnipotent".

Also, we must not overlook God’s wrath, which flows from His holiness. He has a righteous anger against sin.

And not the lest of those is He is literally the essence of love.

 

[Rodger]

And I will take the translations that don't capitalize "lord" in Genesis 18:3 rather than what you say, being a random guy on the Internet yourself. However, if you want someone with some credentials, then Barnes Notes on the Bible don't say the three men in Genesis 18 are God, but in some way represent God. This would be more accurate considering God already stated He isn't a man. (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9)

Barnes' Notes on the Bible - Genesis 18:3
"O Lord. - Abraham uses the word אדני 'adonāy denoting one having authority, whether divine or not. This the Masorites mark as sacred, and apply the vowel points proper to the word when it signifies God. These men in some way represent God;"

You used Genesis 18:3 and may I say to you that Genesis 18:1 says that it was “the LORD” (Yahweh) who appeared to Abraham. It is the LORD who speaks in verses 13, 20, 26, and 33. Abraham stands “before the LORD” in verse 22.

So, not an opinion or a guess or I think so but the literal Scriptures, say the three “men” must have been God Almighty taking on the appearance of a man.

Now we can call that the Trinity.

Or we can call such an appearance a “theophany.”

When Jesus appears in His pre-incarnate body in the Old Testament, we call it a “Christophany.”

Whether God’s appearance to Abraham in Mamre was a theophany or a Christophany, we don’t know.

But it does seem extremely clear from the context that one of the visitors was God Himself (Genesis 18:22) and the other two were the angels who later visited Sodom and spoke to Lot (Genesis 19:1).

 

[Rodger]

Yes it's quoted several times in the NT. YHWH said to Jesus sit at His right hand and guess who's right hand Jesus is sitting at? The Father. God is the Father. He is the only true God (John 17:3)

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Carry your name is correct.

In Psalms 110:1, the Hebrew Yahweh is used. That is A name given by God as His own, and being a third person name form of the verb to be (namely, "I am"). This name refers to God.

Then the phrase ---"My lord" there is the Hebrew word--- adoni which refers to the king, the lord of the Kingdom. It is in this sense that the mother of the Messiah is called "em adoni" ("mother of my lord [the king]") by Elizabeth (Luke 1:43), itself a royal title denoting queenship.

When David refers to the Messiah, therefore (something conceded by Jews of Jesus' day), and calls him "my lord," he means that he is the king of the king himself - that is to say, greater than God's highest authority on earth.

 

[Rodger]

Many times I guess. So if I understand you correctly, you say that the nature of God is God?

Actually my brother, there are several "Elements" that make up the Nature of God.

I would say that "Holiness" would be one of the 1st things to mention. Holiness would be the foundation.

Then He is by nature , "Sovereign".

He is also Omnipotent and of course Love.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, I would first of all say to you that the literal Greek term kyrios used by Elizabeth refers to a master or is to be used in place of the English word "sir."

When we consider CONTEXT as we must to properly understand the Scriptures, we then see that In context, Elizabeth is celebrating Jesus as her Messiah and Savior.

We see that same word used in Luke 2:11 and in John 20:28.

She realizes that the Messiah her own son, John, will proclaim, is growing inside of Mary's body at that very moment.

Now there is only one way to explain how she knew that......Supernaturally!!!

Elizabeth then became the 1st person to worship Messiah Jesus! And Elizabeth did not worship Mary. She said to her, “Blessed are you among women,” not above women. Just because Mary brought the Savior into the world did not put her on a pedestal, but she lifted up all womanhood and all motherhood! The Christmas story is a woman’s story. A man had nothing to do with it.

So Mary is not the mother of God?

 

[Runningman]

Actually my brother, there are several "Elements" that make up the Nature of God.

I would say that "Holiness" would be one of the 1st things to mention. Holiness would be the foundation.

Then He is by nature , "Sovereign".

Another key aspect of God’s nature is His "Immutability."

Then His nature is that He is "Omnipotent".

Also, we must not overlook God’s wrath, which flows from His holiness. He has a righteous anger against sin.

And not the lest of those is He is literally the essence of love.

Then Jesus isn't God because most of what you said does not describe Jesus. I will give you that Jesus has always been holy, but not Sovereign. The Bible says the only Sovereign Lord is God, immortal, eternal, invisible. These are things about God that do not apply to Jesus. Also, throughout his life, Jesus changed a lot spiritually. No examples of Jesus being omnipotent either.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 2
52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

 

[Runningman]

You used Genesis 18:3 and may I say to you that Genesis 18:1 says that it was “the LORD” (Yahweh) who appeared to Abraham. It is the LORD who speaks in verses 13, 20, 26, and 33. Abraham stands “before the LORD” in verse 22.

So, not an opinion or a guess or I think so but the literal Scriptures, say the three “men” must have been God Almighty taking on the appearance of a man.

Now we can call that the Trinity.

Or we can call such an appearance a “theophany.”

When Jesus appears in His pre-incarnate body in the Old Testament, we call it a “Christophany.”

Whether God’s appearance to Abraham in Mamre was a theophany or a Christophany, we don’t know.

But it does seem extremely clear from the context that one of the visitors was God Himself (Genesis 18:22) and the other two were the angels who later visited Sodom and spoke to Lot (Genesis 19:1).

Why can't YHWH be present while the men are also present? That's possible. So where you are making the unwarranted leap into a conclusion not supported by the Scripture is that the men themselves are God since they are never called such. When God speaks it doesn't mean that when someone else speaks that the other person speaking is God. You may have circumstantial evidence based on a very narrow set of verses, but when taking into account that God is not a man then we have a better understanding of Genesis 18. See Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9.

 

[Runningman]

Carry your name is correct.

Not according to Scripture.

In Psalms 110:1, the Hebrew Yahweh is used. That is A name given by God as His own, and being a third person name form of the verb to be (namely, "I am"). This name refers to God.

Compare that to Hebrews 1:13 where it's God speaking to the Son. Where did you get the idea YHWH means "I am?"

Compare Acts 3:13 to Exodus 3:14,15 where Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but rather His servant. Since Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then he isn't YHWH or the I am.

Then the phrase ---"My lord" there is the Hebrew word--- adoni which refers to the king, the lord of the Kingdom. It is in this sense that the mother of the Messiah is called "em adoni" ("mother of my lord [the king]") by Elizabeth (Luke 1:43), itself a royal title denoting queenship.

There are examples of adonai not referring to God. See Genesis 18:3, Genesis 19:2, and Ezra 10:3.

For the word adoni it refers to human lords or masters in the Bible. There are 166 examples of this in the Old Testament.

When David refers to the Messiah, therefore (something conceded by Jews of Jesus' day), and calls him "my lord," he means that he is the king of the king himself - that is to say, greater than God's highest authority on earth.

That would be a false conclusion. The LORD speaking to the Lord is not the same person.

 

[Runningman]

Actually my brother, there are several "Elements" that make up the Nature of God.

I would say that "Holiness" would be one of the 1st things to mention. Holiness would be the foundation.

So we can have the nature of God?

1 Peter 1
16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

Then He is by nature , "Sovereign".

Check out Acts 4:24-27. Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord and Creator there.

He is also Omnipotent and of course Love.

Yet God commands us to love, but no one is omnipotent except the Father.

 

[Runningman]

No, you are. You keep denying his godliness as the religious elites did, I don't. And you won't worship in spirit and truth without Jesus, because he's the way, the truth, and the life, no one goes to the father except through him.

Jesus was plain about his prescription of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth. It has nothing to do with worshipping Jesus in the process. If we are not giving all of our worship to the Father then that would be the sin of idolatry.

Furthermore, we should not conflate bowing to Jesus with deity worship. While it's true that every knee will bow to Jesus in heaven, earth, and under earth the difference is that all of this glory goes to God the Father, not Jesus.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The context is Gen 18 - and Gen 17 - is crystal clear, it was none other than the Almighty God who visited Abraham, for the same matter of a promised heir.

How is that crystal clear when YHWH said He isn't a man? Now you're saying YHWH is a man and relying on flimsy evidence to support that conclusion. Case in point, Gen. 17 & 18 doesn't call the men God. I believe you're conflating God and the men with one another because you're beginning with a presupposition that God is a man. You're doing the same thing people do when they try to say Jacob literally wrestled with God or that the angel of the LORD is the LORD. Both of those claims are disproven by the Scriptures.

At the point when the Holy Spirit descends upon you like it did upon Jesus. You own contribution to your spiritual birth is as much as your own contribution to your physical birth.

When did your spirit die the first time?