Mary, the mother of the Lord

[Rodger]

It relevant because Christ is a brother among brothers. There is relation.

That is incorrect!

Jesus is the Christ and is fully God. He is our Saviour and Lord. WE are brothers in faith with each other by faith in Christ but to think of Him as a brother actually lowers His poaition as God in the Trinity...........But of course, that is your goal, right?

Now allow me ask you a question. Are you a Jehovah Witness?

 

[Runningman]

Silly question!

If my aunt had a mustache would she then be my uncle???

It isn't a silly question because you're attempting to make Jesus into God because of something you think he is called that God is also called. If we are to use that then every single last thing God is called needs to apply to Jesus. You don't want to go down that route because I have identified round about two dozen names or titles that God has that don't apply to Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Yes my friend, I am aware of that Scripture. It is through the promises of God that we are made “partakers of the divine nature.”

Then being partakers of the divine nature involves escaping the world’s decay and rising above sinful desires. Simply put, when we are saved, we receive a new nature, by which we do not perish with the world.

However.....that does not mean that the Old Nature of sin is eradicated. We will struggel with that until we are glorified.

Yes but how about Ephesians 4:24 where Paul said we said we are "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness?" So we can be like God?

Ephesians 4:24
24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[Runningman]

I agree 100%. So then why do you persist in such skeptical positions and why do you deny the Trinity.

Where did anyone explain or describe the Trinity in the Bible? You're talking about this like this should be something everyone has found.

Do you realize that you can not be a Christian and deny the Trinity????

Here we go again. This is what they are teaching you at church? I ask because I have encountered numerous people who have claimed pretty much the same thing as you. May I ask what denomination you belong to and what scripture you use to support your claims?

If you don’t believe in the Trinity, then you don’t understand who God is. You may say the word “God” but you don’t understand His nature. Second, you couldn’t possibly understand who Christ is—that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, as John 1:1-14 and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel.

If you don't believe the Father is the only true God then you don't understand God.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father...

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Runningman]

100% correct. I am bull headed, stubborn and I dig in with both feet when it comes to the written Word of God.

It has nothing to do with being humble my friend or accepting something new. The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9 ).

My friend, the Bible says that you were never a beliver in the Trinity to begin with.

1 John 2:19.......
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You do not believe in the Trinity.....because YOU do not want to!!! The doctrine of the Trinity and illustrations of it are found from Genesis to the Revelation......for those who want to believe!

Seems you believe in the trinity simply because you want to. You for sure have not shown any scripture where the trinity is explained or described in the Bible because it doesn't exist my friend and you and I both know that. So automatically you are at a disadvantage having very little if any verses to create this doctrine out of.

What you seemed to have decided to do is follow the doctrines of men despite Paul and Peter's warnings to either be a Berean and search the scriptures to make sure what they said is true or not, or be careful around false teachers and prophets who will give you itching ears doctrines.

I will give you a simple test. I gather you are either Catholic or Protestant. Make a list of all of their doctrines and find them in the Bible. You don't need to do it publicly, but privately. Be serious about this, too. Don't just assume it's all there. I know you're going to be surprised to find that almost all of it is not actually in the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

That is incorrect!

Jesus is the Christ and is fully God. He is our Saviour and Lord. WE are brothers in faith with each other by faith in Christ but to think of Him as a brother actually lowers His poaition as God in the Trinity...........But of course, that is your goal, right?

Now allow me ask you a question. Are you a Jehovah Witness?

What's incorrect? Jesus is not our brother? Of course he is because the Bible says so. Also, no I am not a JW. I am just a Bible-believing Christian.

Matthew 25
40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Hebrews 2
11 For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

you're attempting to make Jesus into God

By your word, "God", are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

• If No, then to whom are you referring by it?
• If Yes, then this is what you just handed us:

you're attempting to make Jesus into [the Father]

That Jesus, the Son, is not the Father is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism. (See top side of triangle diagram below.) No Trinitarian believes/says that Jesus is the Father, so you clearly are ignorant of what you're saying.

 

[Rodger]

What's incorrect? Jesus is not our brother? Of course he is because the Bible says so. Also, no I am not a JW. I am just a Bible-believing Christian.

Matthew 25
40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Hebrews 2
11 For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

I do not mean to argue my friend, but you are NOT a Bible believing Christian!

Your own words convict you.

What I said about Jesus being a "brother" is a personal opinion.

Yes, I am very aware that there a couple of passages that refer to Jesus as our brother, but I am not comfortable with that idea.

The Bible clearly presents Jesus Christ as being one with the Father, the second Person of the triune Godhead who set aside His rights as God and took on human flesh to dwell among us. Therefore, for ME, it is right to call Him Savior and Lord and God, not a brother.

 

[Rodger]

Seems you believe in the trinity simply because you want to. You for sure have not shown any scripture where the trinity is explained or described in the Bible because it doesn't exist my friend and you and I both know that. So automatically you are at a disadvantage having very little if any verses to create this doctrine out of.

What you seemed to have decided to do is follow the doctrines of men despite Paul and Peter's warnings to either be a Berean and search the scriptures to make sure what they said is true or not, or be careful around false teachers and prophets who will give you itching ears doctrines.

I will give you a simple test. I gather you are either Catholic or Protestant. Make a list of all of their doctrines and find them in the Bible. You don't need to do it publicly, but privately. Be serious about this, too. Don't just assume it's all there. I know you're going to be surprised to find that almost all of it is not actually in the Bible.

Incorrect! I believe in the Trinity because that is what the Bible teaches.

I could show you a hundred Scriptures that speak of the Trinity but it would not make any difference to you so why would I go to that kind of trouble for you when you will come up with an excuse to dismiss them.


Again...you are incorrect. I read, grasp and accept the doctrines found in the Bible.
What I do is reject those skeptics such as yourself who question every jot and every tiddle as if you have found some nugget of information.

I do not take tests my friend! However, I can attest to you that I am not a Catholic.
I am in fact a member of the Southern Baptist denomination, educated with two degrees.

 

[Rodger]

Where did anyone explain or describe the Trinity in the Bible? You're talking about this like this should be something everyone has found.

Here we go again. This is what they are teaching you at church? I ask because I have encountered numerous people who have claimed pretty much the same thing as you. May I ask what denomination you belong to and what scripture you use to support your claims?


If you don't believe the Father is the only true God then you don't understand God.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father...

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I did not learn that a person can not be a Christian and deny the Trinity at church. I did teach that at church but I learned elsewhere from several professors.

Maybe if you went to a Baptist church you would be able to listen to and learn and then accept the as a Christian, you must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. That is Christianity 101 my friend!

Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses deny the Trinity but they are not Christians. Are you a Mormon ???????

Now this may be a shock to you and others reading this, and You may say the word “God” but you don’t understand His nature. No one can possibly understand who Christ is—that He is God in human flesh. The Incarnation of Christ is an essential component of the biblical gospel, and many other biblical passages make clear. To deny the Trinity is to deny the Incarnation. And to deny the Incarnation is to wrongly understand the true gospel which mean that you can not be a Christian.

Listen my friend, do not accept what I have said. YOU do the work for yourself.
Goggle..........."you can not be a Christian and reject the Trinity" and you will see a hundred places that will verify what I have taught for 50 years!

 

[Rodger]

Yes but how about Ephesians 4:24 where Paul said we said we are "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness?" So we can be like God?

Ephesians 4:24
24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

OK...what about them?

Where in Ephesians 4:24 does it say that the old sin nature dies when we are saved?????

That Scriptures simply tells us that all believers, despite having a new nature, still have to deal with the old man. God has freed His people from this “old man” and so are to lay it aside so that it no longer dominates us. As a believer, Christ lives in us, enabling us to avoid the old self.

You seem intent to only post a Scripture which supports what you want it to say. WHat about the other Scriptures that do not say what you want to hear? Do you just pretend that they do not exist.
The Apostle Paul said in Romans 7:14..........
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
How about Romans 7:25..........
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Now, we can "strive" to be like Jesus......but we can not be like God. When we receive glorified bodies at death or the Rapture then we will be like Christ.

We can love, help others, pray, heck we can even wear sandels like Jesus did!

 

[Rodger]

It isn't a silly question because you're attempting to make Jesus into God because of something you think he is called that God is also called. If we are to use that then every single last thing God is called needs to apply to Jesus. You don't want to go down that route because I have identified round about two dozen names or titles that God has that don't apply to Jesus.

Incorrect !!!!

I am not makeing Jesus into God. I am believing that Jesus is God.

Now again.....Are you a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness?

Are you ashamed to identify your denomination?

My dear friend, you have identified nothing ! You have posted some words that have a meaning to YOU, Only YOU but they are meaningles to the rest of us who believe and accept Jesus as God in the flsesh!

 

[Runningman]

By your word, "God", are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

• If No, then to whom are you referring by it?
• If Yes, then this is what you just handed us:

Correct, I am saying the Father is the only true God.

That Jesus, the Son, is not the Father is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism. (See top side of triangle diagram below.) No Trinitarian believes/says that Jesus is the Father, so you clearly are ignorant of what you're saying.

That's a tenant in Trinitarianism, but not in the Bible. That's my point.

 

[Runningman]

I do not mean to argue my friend, but you are NOT a Bible believing Christian!

Yes I am.

Your own words convict you.

No they don't.

What I said about Jesus being a "brother" is a personal opinion.

Yes, I am very aware that there a couple of passages that refer to Jesus as our brother, but I am not comfortable with that idea.

You are probably not comfortable with the Bible saying Jesus is our brother because it makes it more difficult for you to make Jesus into God. Yet, it's still there.

The Bible clearly presents Jesus Christ as being one with the Father, the second Person of the triune Godhead who set aside His rights as God and took on human flesh to dwell among us. Therefore, for ME, it is right to call Him Savior and Lord and God, not a brother.

I would agree with all of that except the parts about Jesus being part of a triune Godhead and/or God. For starters, the Bible still calls Jesus our brother so we need to deal with that rather than just dismiss it on grounds of it causing discomfort. I believe you have misunderstood who Jesus is and who are can be in relation to him. According to scripture, Jesus is the definitive Son of God and we, too, can be sons (or daughters!) of God. That is how and why Jesus is our brother.

 

[Runningman]

I do not take tests my friend! However, I can attest to you that I am not a Catholic.
I am in fact a member of the Southern Baptist denomination, educated with two degrees.

Oh, but this test is something everyone should do. The Bible says so. You should take inventory of the things you have picked up here and there and compare them to Scripture. It's important for us Christians to make sure we are as close as possible to what the teachings of Jesus are. I know Jesus never taught he is God and never taught about trinitarianism. I don't believe my Lord and Savior would mislead me or judge me for what he never taught about. Would Jesus judge you for following something he didn't teach though?

A call to re-examine the foundation.

Hebrews 5
12Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word.c You need milk, not solid food!

13For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

 

[Runningman]

Incorrect !!!!

I am not makeing Jesus into God. I am believing that Jesus is God.

Now again.....Are you a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness?

Are you ashamed to identify your denomination?

My dear friend, you have identified nothing ! You have posted some words that have a meaning to YOU, Only YOU but they are meaningles to the rest of us who believe and accept Jesus as God in the flsesh!

I am not a Mormon and I am not a JW (Jehovah Witness) something I previously told you already in case you missed it in comment #166. I am a Unitarian Christian, meaning I am a strict monotheist who believe in the Father being the only true God as Jesus and all of Scripture testifies of. If I had to pick a denomination I am most in agreement with then definitely the Biblical Unitarians and most of what the Christadelphians believe are mostly Biblically accurate. However, there are disagreements about little things here and there even among them. Not as tremendously fractured as the Trinitarians though!

Let me ask you something then. Is worshipping as human as God idolatry and is Jesus a human?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

God said His name is YHWH. He said He is the only God. Jesus is never identified as such. This is just what the scripture testifieth of.

Exodus 6
2And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

But in your logic, God didn't say that, an angel of God did, therefore YHWH should be that angel's name, not God's.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. (Ex. 3:1-2)

Also, ironically, don't you see that in this verse you quoted, God revealed that he did APPEAR unto Abraham - "And I appeared unto Abraham", which directly alludes to Gen. 18? How can you argue that it wasn't God there? If God weren't among those three men, He would be a liar. And "JEHOVAH" isn't used in other common translations, in NKJV, NASB and NIV it's the LORD in all caps, in Complete Jewish bible, Tree of Life, and other Jewish friendly translations it's Adonai.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am seeing something completely different. Let's use the verses you provided. I would like to draw your attention to verse 11 where it says of those who are around the throne "the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders" and then verse 13 says "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne," then verse 14 says "And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever."

So based on the verses you provided, the ones who are worshipping are around the throne. The one on the throne is distinct from the Lamb. When they fell down and worshipped then they fell down before the throne. That means the one on the throne is not the Lamb, but God rather. They didn't worship the Lamb. You can confirm this elsewhere.

I didn't mention worship. You argued that glory ought to be given to God and God only, but in 7:11 it clearly states "
Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive ..." So yes, Jesus is a distinct being, and glory, honor and power are given to him as well as God, worshiping both God and Jesus are not mutually exclusive. You ignored this part on purpose and proposed a false dichotomy.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

You had said:

you're attempting to make Jesus into God

So, I asked you:

By your word, "God", are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

You: <NO ANSWER>

Why can't you answer the question I asked you?

Correct, I am saying the Father is the only true God.

I did not ask you whether or not you are saying the Father is the only true God.

---

I pointed out the fact:

That Jesus, the Son, is not the Father is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism.

To which you reacted asininely by saying:

That's a tenant in Trinitarianism, but not in the Bible.

I did not say "tenant", I said "tenet". And you have just denied the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father!

 

[Runningman]

You had said:

So, I asked you:

You: <NO ANSWER>

Why can't you answer the question I asked you?

I answered your question. I said "Correct, I am saying the Father is the only true God." How does that not answer your question?

I did not ask you whether or not you are saying the Father is the only true God.

---

I pointed out the fact:

To which you reacted asininely by saying:

I did not say "tenant", I said "tenet". And you have just denied the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Son, is NOT the Father!

Jesus the Son is not the Father. What's your point?