Bible Study Mary Was Called Mother – Therefore Mary Is Not Sinless

[Jim Parker]

The woman in Revelation is not definitively Mary, the mother of Jesus. The end of the passage reads
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus... (Revelation 12:17 ESV)

Please read the rest of the passage.

Rev 12:1-2, 5 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
4b-5 And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it fort

Q: What child did Satan attempt to kill?
A; Jesus - Mat 2:16 (RSV) Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.

Q; What child was taken up to the throne of God?
A: Jesus - Mar 16:19 (RSV) So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Q: What male child will rule the nations with a rod of iron?
A: Jesus - Rev 19:15-16 (RSV) From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Q: What woman gave birth to this particular male child?
A: Mary

It's hard for me to square Mary, mother of Jesus, as being the mother of all who hold to the testimony of Jesus.

If we are the brothers and sisters of Christ, then Mary, who is His mother, is also pour mother.
Gal 4:4-5 (RSV) But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Rom 8:29 (RSV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Also, if you see the woman in Revelation as the mother of Jesus, it hard to avoid going in odd directions in explaining her being clothed with the sun, moon, twelve stars, and being given wings to escape to the wilderness to avoid Satan. Personally, it seems more fitting to see the woman in Revelation as the Jewish nation.

I am at a loss to understand how all that could possibly fit the Jewish nation that rejected Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

This "woman" thing has always intrigued me.
There's a poster who constantly says that we must use hermeneutics and biblical exegesis for everything Jesus said and by carrying this to an extreme practically says that nothing He said is of any value because we're not living in that time. I don't agree with this. If Jesus said Don't Hate Your Neighbor, I do believe He meant we are NOT to hate our neighbor (in fact we are to love him).

In this case, that poster would be 100% correct. Language evolves and changes. New expressions are thought up, words take on different meanings. Remember when "gay" meant you were happy? Try saying "I'm feeling gay" today!

The NIV puts the word "dear" before "woman" in John 2:4 Jesus changes wine to water. This still doesn't explain it, does it?

How to put yourself in the head of people living 2,000 years ago. Jesus also called His mother "woman" when she was at the foot of the cross. He also called the Samartian woman at the well "woman". John 4:21
Also, Peter calls someone "woman" in Luke 22:57 when negating knowing Jesus for the first time after Jesus' arrest.

So, of course, Jesus didn't mean "Hey, woman, get me a beer." (I think this is grounds for divorce, BTW! LOL)
But what DID He mean?

This is totally my idea. I think He was separating Mary from the role of Mother. In the sense that in some circumstances He (or anyone of that time) recognized her as a mother. For example: Mother, come, let me take you to Jerusalem. There is the intimacy of son/mother. He wishes to do something for his MOTHER in the capacity of a SON.

At the wedding in Cana, He is separating Hmself from Mary as his mother. He puts her into a different catagory - one more general and not as personal. One not having to do with son/mother but man/woman. He as a man at the wedding, separate from his mother - two separate beings. Each one with a different mission.

Same at the cross. He was giving her away to John. Jesus calls Mary, Woman, but He refers to her as Mother to John since she will now become John's MOTHER. Again, he separated the Mother aspect of Mary from her Woman aspect.

As for the rest of what you say, I agree. Catholics go overboard and Protestants can't quite let go and give Mary the honor she is due. I'll often hear that Mary is not mentioned in scripture and I've thought about this. The N.T. is about Jesus and Luke wasn't written yet when the disciples were growing in number after Jesus' ascension. Only after some investigating was Luke able to write Luke 1:43-55. I doubt the original apostles thought of Mary in any other way than as Jesus' mother. They were feeling their own loss and pain - it's not easy to feel the other person's "life." They might have had a very high regard for her, and they might have gone their own ways and not considered her too much. But we have hindsight now and, indeed, what other woman can say she raised Jesus, the Son of God?

Wondering

I see what you're saying. I think the idea of "dear woman" (use of the word reflecting family endearment) is more appropriate.
I would be surprised to see any indication of such a use in a translation prepared by reformed Protestants.

 

[Jim Parker]

Here's another phrase i don't understand Jim.. you say "the mother of God made flesh" sounds like "and the word became flesh" kind a like deifying her?

When did I say the mother of God was made flesh? I don't think I said that.
Mary provided the source for the human flesh of the Logos so He could become Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God and son of man according to God's will.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I see what you're saying. I think the idea of "dear woman" (use of the word reflecting family endearment) is more appropriate.
I would be surprised to see any indication of such a use in a translation prepared by reformed Protestants.

Now we're changing the Bible?
Please, tell me more.

 

[reba]

I cant help but wonder how many greek words there are for our english word woman..

 

[Jim Parker]

You need to address this Jim if you say Mary is not to be worshiped..
"Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary."
Your making Mary incarnate of the Holy Spirit...

I am baffled as to how you came to that conclusion.
Jesus had to be born from a human being in order to be human.
Jesus could not have been conceived by the union of a human male and a human female is the ordinary manner of procreation.
When Mary asked how she would bear a child since she had not known any man, the angel explained, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; " which is how the "formless and void" earth was made to be able to sustain life at Gen 1:2 "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."
The Holy Spirit caused Mary's "void" womb to bring forth life.
None of that makes Mary a god.

 

[Malachi]

I am at a loss to understand how all that could possibly fit the Jewish nation that rejected Christ.

Not "the Jewish nation that rejected Christ", but the those who are the redeemed of Israel: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12:17 KJV).

 

[turnorburn]

I am baffled as to how you came to that conclusion.
Jesus had to be born from a human being in order to be human.
Jesus could not have been conceived by the union of a human male and a human female is the ordinary manner of procreation.
When Mary asked how she would bear a child since she had not known any man, the angel explained, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; " which is how the "formless and void" earth was made to be able to sustain life at Gen 1:2 "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."
The Holy Spirit caused Mary's "void" womb to bring forth life.
None of that makes Mary a god.

Are you really baffled Jim: "Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary"

With a capital AND for effect...

 

[turnorburn]

What happened to ugmug he started this fiasco..

 

[Malachi]

I cant help but wonder how many greek words there are for our english word woman..

King James Bible
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! (John 19:26).
Strong's Concordance (1125)
guné: a woman
Original Word: γυνή, αικός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: guné
Phonetic Spelling: (goo-nay')
Short Definition: a woman, wife, my lady
Definition: a woman, wife, my lady.

 

[Sinthesis]

I cant help but wonder how many greek words there are for our english word woman..

I'm sure frat boys aren't who you want to answer that question.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What's all the fuss about woman?
Jesus created Eve and called her woman.
So of course it's a title of respect.
It's straight from God.

We shouldn't let what man has done to a word that contradicts what God says influence us.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now we're changing the Bible?
Please, tell me more.

I know you are aware that translation from ancient (and now dead) Hebrew and Koine Greek must include approximations and that nuances can be lost. Add to that the bias of the translators and the respectful "dear woman" (another approximation) gets lost.
That is not to say that anyone is purposely "changing the Bible" as long as they aren't trying to make a politically correct paraphrase.

There is a widely held misconception that a given English translation (often the KJV) is a word for word exact translation from the original languages into English. We don't even do that with modern languages that are more closely related to English.

 

[Jim Parker]

Not "the Jewish nation that rejected Christ", but the those who are the redeemed of Israel: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12:17 KJV).

I was responding to the poster's words, not the scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are you really baffled Jim: "Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary".

That's exactly what I said.
What I found baffling was your statement, "Your making Mary incarnate of the Holy Spirit..." (MSG #58)
We know the Mary was the child of Anna and Joachim, not Anna and the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know you are aware that translation from ancient (and now dead) Hebrew and Koine Greek must include approximations and that nuances can be lost. Add to that the bias of the translators and the respectful "dear woman" (another approximation) gets lost.
That is not to say that anyone is purposely "changing the Bible" as long as they aren't trying to make a politically correct paraphrase.

There is a widely held misconception that a given English translation (often the KJV) is a word for word exact translation from the original languages into English. We don't even do that with modern languages that are more closely related to English.

It's even more than a nuance. It's something we won't really understand, this calling Mary "woman."

Because Rollo is right. Okay. Seems simple enough.
BUT
Then why didn't the women of that day call guys "man"?

When Mary and John were at the cross Jesus said "Woman, behold your son!" John 19:26
But to John, He didn't say "Man, behold your mother." And, indeed, there is no reference that men were referred to in this way.

I speak Italian fluently (I was born here) and I know for sure that there are some words that cannot be translated into English - the translation would be just a shadow of the word. Also, culture does affect this calling her "woman" too.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we've lost track of the original post.
Ugmug has up and left us (where are you ugmug?).
But I find the following very interesting, from his O.P.:

Notice that Jesus called his mother 'woman' in exact same way that Adam called Eve right after her creation from the rib of Adam (hint: Adam renamed the 'woman' as 'Eve' after their sin – Eve was named twice). When Adam named God's created companion for him as 'woman' Adam gave an explanation saying … “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” (Genesis 2:22-23).

The fact that Adam called her "woman" first and then "Eve". Eve was named twice. I've never thought of this or read about it.
Any ideas?

Woman when she was taken out of him, Genesis 2:23
Eve after they sinned. Genesis 3:20
Seems interesting. Will be thinking on it.
Lata...

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's even more than a nuance. It's something we won't really understand, this calling Mary "woman."

Because Rollo is right. Okay. Seems simple enough.
BUT
Then why didn't the women of that day call guys "man"?

When Mary and John were at the cross Jesus said "Woman, behold your son!" John 19:26
But to John, He didn't say "Man, behold your mother." And, indeed, there is no reference that men were referred to in this way.

I speak Italian fluently (I was born here) and I know for sure that there are some words that cannot be translated into English - the translation would be just a shadow of the word. Also, culture does affect this calling her "woman" too.

W

Maybe they did call them man.
How do we know otherwise?

 

[Jim Parker]

It's even more than a nuance. It's something we won't really understand, this calling Mary "woman."
W

I'm just saying that for Jesus to address His mother as "woman" in a manner which would not convey the proper respect due to a parent according to the Law of Moses and, even more so, according to the love which defined Jesus' life.

Even the use of the word "woman" when addressing the gentile woman who begged Jesus to heal her daughter did not have a demeaning nuance to it. Rather, he praised her for her faith.
Mat 15:28(RSV) Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

How else did Jesus use the word "woman"?

When Jesus addressed the woman who anointed His head with ointment and washed His feet with tears of sorrow for her sins, His use of the word "woman" was endearing.
Luke 7:44, 50(RSV) Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

When Jesus healed the woman in a synagogue, His use of the word was not demeaning or dismissive. He identified her as "a daughter of Abraham."
Luke 13:11-12,16(RSV) And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?

When Jesus had the conversation with the Samaritan woman, He did not address her in a demeaning or dismissive manner when using the word "woman." By His words she would be saved as would be the entire town.
John 4:21(RSV) Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Considering the woman caught in adultery. Jesus' use of the word "woman" is at least neutral but I suspect that His use was caring and considerate rather than demeaning. It was at least neutral as would be appropriate for a 1st century Jewish Rabbi addressing a woman to whom he was not related.
John 8:10-11(RSV) Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

Certainly Jesus' words to the weeping Mary Magdalene at the tomb were caring and compassionate rather than demeaning.
John 20:15 (RSV) Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?"

So, why would anyone conclude that Jesus was being demeaning or dismissive to His own mother because He used the word "Mother" in addressing her?

Do the scriptures support such a view or does the need to take her down a notch or two require it?

iakov the fool

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm just saying that for Jesus to address His mother as "woman" in a manner which would not convey the proper respect due to a parent according to the Law of Moses and, even more so, according to the love which defined Jesus' life.

Even the use of the word "woman" when addressing the gentile woman who begged Jesus to heal her daughter did not have a demeaning nuance to it. Rather, he praised her for her faith.
Mat 15:28(RSV) Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

How else did Jesus use the word "woman"?

When Jesus addressed the woman who anointed His head with ointment and washed His feet with tears of sorrow for her sins, His use of the word "woman" was endearing.
Luke 7:44, 50(RSV) Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

When Jesus healed the woman in a synagogue, His use of the word was not demeaning or dismissive. He identified her as "a daughter of Abraham."
Luke 13:11-12,16(RSV) And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?

When Jesus had the conversation with the Samaritan woman, He did not address her in a demeaning or dismissive manner when using the word "woman." By His words she would be saved as would be the entire town.
John 4:21(RSV) Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Considering the woman caught in adultery. Jesus' use of the word "woman" is at least neutral but I suspect that His use was caring and considerate rather than demeaning. It was at least neutral as would be appropriate for a 1st century Jewish Rabbi addressing a woman to whom he was not related.
John 8:10-11(RSV) Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

Certainly Jesus' words to the weeping Mary Magdalene at the tomb were caring and compassionate rather than demeaning.
John 20:15 (RSV) Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?"

So, why would anyone conclude that Jesus was being demeaning or dismissive to His own mother because He used the word "Mother" in addressing her?

Do the scriptures support such a view or does the need to take her down a notch or two require it?

iakov the fool

Haven't you discussed all this pages ago?
Does anyone have anything "new" to say?