Bible Study Mary Was Called Mother – Therefore Mary Is Not Sinless

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. The Holy Spirit caused Mary to bring forth human life from her womb in the same manner in which the Holy Spirit brought forth life from the formless and void earth in the beginning. (That's why we see the striking similarity of language between Genesis 1:2 and Luke 1:35.) The Holy Spirit used the "formless and void" material of the earth to bring forth life and he used the "formless" material in the "void" of Mary's womb to bring forth the one is whom is Life.

An ovum is the starting point or human life. The Holy Spirit caused one to begin the process of life.

If Jesus is 100% Holy Spirit life seed then He was not both God and Man.

If Jesus was not God then he could not rise from the dead and destroy the power of death.
If Jesus was not man (from Mary's flesh) then He could not die.

Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary.

Otherwise, why bother the poor girl?

Hi Jim Parker

Two comments:
1. Re the highlighted. Just to clarify:
In Genesis 3:15 God says He will put enmity between satan and the woman. Between his seed and the woman's seed. Of course the RESULT of the woman's seed is Jesus. But women don't have "seed" - that is for man to have. So when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, thus was she given God's seed and Jesus was born. Luke 1:35
Thus can we say that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man - God by the Father and man by Mary. He has both natures. Very beautiful what you say re Genesis 1 and Luke 1.

2. Jesus came to save us for all the reasons stated. To save us from the dominion of sin, to kill death (I grapple with understanding this) in that men feared death and now we no longer have to. But I know it goes deeper than this.
But He also came to open the gates of heaven. Before Jesus' sacrifice, men were forgiven by their faith as in Hebrews, however, heaven was not open to them and they waited in Abraham's Bossom - Luke 16:19.26
Now, after Jesus' sacrifice, we can go directly to heaven since the gates have been opened.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim Parker
Two comments:
1. Re the highlighted. Just to clarify:
... So when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, thus was she given God's seed and Jesus was born. Luke 1:35
Thus can we say that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man - God by the Father and man by Mary. He has both natures. Very beautiful what you say re Genesis 1 and Luke 1.

God is not a man that has "seed." All we can say is that the Holy Spirit caused Mary to become the bearer of the Son of God. She bore in her womb the One Whom the heavens could not contain and gave birth to her creator. She gave birth to the author of life.

2. Jesus came to save us for all the reasons stated. To save us from the dominion of sin, to kill death (I grapple with understanding this) in that men feared death and now we no longer have to. But I know it goes deeper than this.
But He also came to open the gates of heaven. Before Jesus' sacrifice, men were forgiven by their faith as in Hebrews, however, heaven was not open to them and they waited in Abraham's Bossom - Luke 16:19.26
Now, after Jesus' sacrifice, we can go directly to heaven since the gates have been opened.
Wondering

I believe the souls of the righteous will go directly to "heaven" and, after the resurrection, their bodies will join them. (Don't know exactly what that will look like. We'll see when we see.)

 

[GodsGrace]

God is not a man that has "seed." All we can say is that the Holy Spirit caused Mary to become the bearer of the Son of God. She bore in her womb the One Whom the heavens could not contain and gave birth to her creator. She gave birth to the author of life.

I believe the souls of the righteous will go directly to "heaven" and, after the resurrection, their bodies will join them. (Don't know exactly what that will look like. We'll see when we see.)

Okay on the second paragraph.

On the first, I should have put "seed" in parenthesis, maybe, in my original post. Of course God is not a man with seed. Mary had the ovum and the Holy Spirit provided the "seed" which is understood as God's nature and thus a "man" was created, Jesus - fully God and fully man. The Holy Spirit providing the seed.

How else do you understand Genesis 3:15?
It is clearly prefiguring Christ since the woman has no seed. Unless it's taken to mean her offspring. OR that only by her "seed" will Jesus be born since there is no human man involved in the process, and thus no seed at all?

I like my first theory better.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Having children in wedlock is not a sin.. Sex in marriage is not sin.. that saying .... Mary was special because she was chosen she was not chosen because she was special..
We protestants have not shown her enough respect... others elevate her to a point that is disrespectful

Hi Reba,
This reminds me of.

God does not pick the qualified -
He qualifies the picked.

Mary was a "God-fearing" woman as was her husband Joseph as shown in Mathew 1:18-19 He really loved Mary and respected her. She could have been stoned to death for fornication but Joseph wanted to save her and "put her away secretly." It took a lot of courage for him to want to keep Mary safe even though he knew she was with child.
Then in Mathew 1:20 the angel (probably Gabriel) appeared to him in a dream and all was good. I used to like to teach children how love is courageous and respectful and how Joseph stood by Mary and did not want to see her harmed.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Over 40 years Chopper.
You say such nice things.
The honor is all mine.

W

My goodness, 40+ years. Good for you Sister. Your knowledge of the spiritual workings of Jesus thru His Spirit is what catches my eye. When you first came on this Forum last year, I knew something was different about you. You're not just another voice here, you have valuable knowledge and wisdom in the things of YHWH to share.

Thank you for being you. A humble spirit like yours is a wonderful thing to observe, just keep on being you, you are loved!!

 

[Jim Parker]

Okay on the second paragraph.

On the first, I should have put "seed" in parenthesis, maybe, in my original post. Of course God is not a man with seed. Mary had the ovum and the Holy Spirit provided the "seed" which is understood as God's nature and thus a "man" was created, Jesus - fully God and fully man. The Holy Spirit providing the seed.

How else do you understand Genesis 3:15?
It is clearly prefiguring Christ since the woman has no seed. Unless it's taken to mean her offspring. OR that only by her "seed" will Jesus be born since there is no human man involved in the process, and thus no seed at all?

I like my first theory better.

W

We just have to remember that when we talk about what God is and how He does what He does, it's just that; "theory."

 

[Malachi]

We just have to remember that when we talk about what God is and how He does what He does, it's just that; "theory."

Why is it *theory* when we have Divine revelation regarding the nature and character of God as well as His works? If Christians go around saying we only have a *theory* about God and Christ, then the Gospel is no better than any other religious teaching. If we cannot say we have the Truth as revealed by God, then we might as well fold our tents and disappear.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why is it *theory* when we have Divine revelation regarding the nature and character of God as well as His works? If Christians go around saying we only have a *theory* about God and Christ, then the Gospel is no better than any other religious teaching. If we cannot say we have the Truth as revealed by God, then we might as well fold our tents and disappear.

Or understand of God is theory because an exhaustive understanding and/or description of God is beyond our ability to grasp. We can only approximate with words He who is beyond reducing to language. Our understanding is limited to our capacity to understand God, from the perspective of our 4-dimensional experience of reality, when God exists in at least 11 dimensions. Or, to put it generically, we can't "put God in a box."

My statements in no way suggest that we do not have the truth as revealed by God. Certainly all that God has revealed is Truth (capital "T") and Jesus is Himself the Truth. (Jhn 14:6)

One truth that god has revealed is found at Deuteronomy 29:29: The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (RSV) In other words, we don't get to know everything.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or understand of God is theory because an exhaustive understanding and/or description of God is beyond our ability to grasp. We can only approximate with words He who is beyond reducing to language. Our understanding is limited to our capacity to understand God, from the perspective of our 4-dimensional experience of reality, when God exists in at least 11 dimensions. Or, to put it generically, we can't "put God in a box."

My statements in no way suggest that we do not have the truth as revealed by God. Certainly all that God has revealed is Truth (capital "T") and Jesus is Himself the Truth. (Jhn 14:6)

One truth that god has revealed is found at Deuteronomy 29:29: The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (RSV) In other words, we don't get to know everything.

Jim Parker

Everyone on these threads puts God in a box. We each have our understanding of how things are.
Some churches believe in the Trinity and can prove it.
Some don't and can prove it.
Some believe Jesus is God, Yahweh the Son.
Some believe He's just a divine person.
Some believe in hell.
Some believe non-believers just dissolve into nothing and can prove it with scripture.

My first paragraph up there in post no. 23 is scriptural.
The second paragraph is just thinking out loud.
I thought you might comment - someone could always add something new.
It might have had something to do with the scriptural part.
There's so much to know. I'm always amazed at how much I don't know.

So, yeah, I would have to agree with Malachi. If we put everything under it being a "theory" we might as well just pack up our tent and go watch some TV.

It's okay.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

There's so much to know. I'm always amazed at how much I don't know.
Wondering

Then you are on the right path.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mary is not to be held in reverence and is only called blessed to the generations because she was used as Gods handmaiden who was pure of heart to be chosen for to conceive and birth Jesus, Luke 1:28, 48. Mary is no different than any other as she was selected by God for a purpose just like God has selected many before her and after her.

Jesus was never made sin for us as He was the final blood sacrifice for the remission of sin, Romans 3:25.

 

[for_his_glory]

Or understand of God is theory because an exhaustive understanding and/or description of God is beyond our ability to grasp. We can only approximate with words He who is beyond reducing to language. Our understanding is limited to our capacity to understand God, from the perspective of our 4-dimensional experience of reality, when God exists in at least 11 dimensions. Or, to put it generically, we can't "put God in a box."

My statements in no way suggest that we do not have the truth as revealed by God. Certainly all that God has revealed is Truth (capital "T") and Jesus is Himself the Truth. (Jhn 14:6)

One truth that god has revealed is found at Deuteronomy 29:29: The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (RSV) In other words, we don't get to know everything.

God is spirit, not flesh and blood and when we are indwelled with His Holy Spirit then we have that relationship of fellowship with Him to understand who He is and how He can choose what He wants to use to speak to us. Just as He used a burning bush, a donkey or even Mary to birth His living word we can hear the voice of God speaking to us through His word if we take our minds off of what man says and read His spoken word for how it is written. God will reveal himself to us and give us what we need to know about Him.

 

[reba]

Not necessarily directed at the last poster... ADMIN
For a long while 'in forum land ' posters in the Bible Study section have been keeping it cool very little contention .. seems in the last couple days it is creeping in.. Heavy moderating splinters threads... Drop the idea , my theology is the only right one... Share Scripture learn from each other ... God's Word will not return to Him void of what He sent it to do..

 

[Jim Parker]

God is spirit, not flesh and blood and when we are indwelled with His Holy Spirit then we have that relationship of fellowship with Him to understand who He is and how He can choose what He wants to use to speak to us. Just as He used a burning bush, a donkey or even Mary to birth His living word we can hear the voice of God speaking to us through His word if we take our minds off of what man says and read His spoken word for how it is written. God will reveal himself to us and give us what we need to know about Him.

Very true.
Not what I was talking about, but sill very true.

 

[Jim Parker]

Mary is not to be held in reverence and is only called blessed to the generations because she was used as Gods handmaiden who was pure of heart to be chosen for to conceive and birth Jesus, Luke 1:28, 48.

Someone of whom the scripture says that all generations will call her "blessed" (Luk 1:48) is to be held in reverence. (Not worship; "reverence")

Mary is no different than any other as she was selected by God for a purpose just like God has selected many before her and after her.

Really??
How many others bore the creator of heaven and earth in her womb?
How many others carried Almighty God, Whom all creation cannot contain, in their wombs?
How many others were the mother of God?
How many others are identified as the mother of all who "bear testimony to Jesus"? (Rev 12;17)

Why do so many Protestants have a problem with Mary and feel a need to pull her down? Peyton Manning and Michael Jordan get more respect than the mother of our God, the Lord Jesus Christ and nobody sees a problem with that.

 

[reba]

I cant imagine watching the crucifixion of your innocent Son... Watching those who you respected mocking HIm .. screaming for His death...
Mary needed a Saviour just like i do... it was not my son hanging on that Cross...

 

[for_his_glory]

Someone of whom the scripture says that all generations will call her "blessed" (Luk 1:48) is to be held in reverence. (Not worship; "reverence")


Really??
How many others bore the creator of heaven and earth in her womb?
How many others carried Almighty God, Whom all creation cannot contain, in their wombs?
How many others were the mother of God?
How many others are identified as the mother of all who "bear testimony to Jesus"? (Rev 12;17)

Why do so many Protestants have a problem with Mary and feel a need to pull her down? Peyton Manning and Michael Jordan get more respect than the mother of our God, the Lord Jesus Christ and nobody sees a problem with that.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luke 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Luke 1:28 and the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

No one is pulling her down, but we are to worship God only, Luke 4:8. Mary was highly favored of the Lord just like those God had favor in before her. In her low estate God found favor in her and chose her to be the birth mother of Jesus and for this alone she is more blessed above other women that God could have use as He found favor in her. She is not greater than other women, just more blessed because God chose her.

(Let's not make this a Catholic vs. Protestant thing as I will not go there)

 

[turnorburn]

Say Jim got a question.. what did you mean when you said this: "Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary."

 

[Chopper]

I agree Jim, I'm sorry to say that a large number of Baptist do not place Mary in her rightful place of admiration, wonder, and respect for carrying the Son of the Almighty Father. I believe that is in large part to an un-biblical position of equality with Jesus the Son of God. To think that Mary has some kind of power to forgive sins or many other area's of Catholic doctrines concerning Mary are simply not true and fires up some Baptist to sin as much as do some Catholics.

Listen Jim, I'm in no way disrespecting you. I thoroughly enjoy what you have to say and your instructions are very valuable. I detect a wonderful passion for what you believe to be Truth. I also detect a solid knowledge of the Word of God. I love you Brother Jim and would not hurt your feelings at any cost.

O Mary! What a courageous Virgin. As I read this account in the Gospel of Luke....
Luke 1:26 "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
1:27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.
:28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
1:29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be.
1:30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
1:34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"
1:35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
1:36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God."
1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her."

even as I write this, it's hard to believe that there would have ever been a woman, much less a virgin, who would have agreed to follow Gabriel's instructions. All I can say is WOW!! what an awesome Woman of God. I've often wondered about the family that Mary grew up in. There seems to me that something special was happening to Mary as she matured because of this statement of Gabriel....
Luke 1:28 "And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

It is my opinion that the Lord had been with Mary favoring her from the day she was born. Certainly a reality to this portion of Scripture....
Ephesians 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," And His will for Mary was to give birth to the most important individual that would ever be born, Jesus the Son of God.

Mary will definitely be one of whom I will look for in Glory to give a big hug and with a new spiritual mind, give her my deepest appreciation for her calling to give birth to her Son the Savior of all who were there in the New Jerusalem giving praise to the Father and His Son.

GOD, GIVE US ALL A TRUTHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR AMAZING MARY!

 

[Deborah13]

We just have to remember that when we talk about what God is and how He does what He does, it's just that; "theory."

My theory is that Mary conceived by the same power that Jesus and others used to cast out demons, to raise the dead, to heal the sick, to enable the disciples to speak in other tongues, etc. By the resurrection power of God.

I dont know what others think, do people think he was holy spirit that fertilised Marys egg or something?. Like a half man half God being.

Science has proven that an genetically engineered egg can be brought to life by an electrical charge without any sperm. This is how both sheep, Dolly and Polly, began. If man, with our merger abilities, can do such a thing surely God's power is much greater.
Jesus the Christ, Son of God, Son of Man/mankind.