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Bible Study Mary Was Called Mother – Therefore Mary Is Not Sinless

Why do so many Protestants have a problem with Mary and feel a need to pull her down?
Not "pull her down" but view her as God sees her, and Christ saw her in Scripture. Since the "traditionalists" have elevated and venerated (if not worshipped) Mary far beyond what God requires, it is only right to point to Scripture and remind all that Mary was certainly highly privileged, but not elevated to the level of Queen of Heaven (which is idolatry).

Indeed her name does not occur EVEN ONCE in the epistles. Paul simply says regarding Christ "made of a woman" (Gal 4:4) and Christ invariably addressed her as "woman", not mother, and certainly not "mother of God". He even stated publicly when told that His mother was waiting to see Him, that all those who were His disciples were His mothers, and brothers, and sisters.
 
I agree Jim, I'm sorry to say that a large number of Baptist do not place Mary in her rightful place of admiration, wonder, and respect for carrying the Son of the Almighty Father. I believe that is in large part to an un-biblical position of equality with Jesus the Son of God. To think that Mary has some kind of power to forgive sins or many other area's of Catholic doctrines concerning Mary are simply not true and fires up some Baptist to sin as much as do some Catholics.

Listen Jim, I'm in no way disrespecting you. I thoroughly enjoy what you have to say and your instructions are very valuable. I detect a wonderful passion for what you believe to be Truth. I also detect a solid knowledge of the Word of God. I love you Brother Jim and would not hurt your feelings at any cost.

O Mary! What a courageous Virgin. As I read this account in the Gospel of Luke....
Luke 1:26 "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
1:27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.
:28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
1:29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be.
1:30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
1:34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"
1:35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
1:36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God."
1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her."


even as I write this, it's hard to believe that there would have ever been a woman, much less a virgin, who would have agreed to follow Gabriel's instructions. All I can say is WOW!! what an awesome Woman of God. I've often wondered about the family that Mary grew up in. There seems to me that something special was happening to Mary as she matured because of this statement of Gabriel....
Luke 1:28 "And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

It is my opinion that the Lord had been with Mary favoring her from the day she was born. Certainly a reality to this portion of Scripture....
Ephesians 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
And His will for Mary was to give birth to the most important individual that would ever be born, Jesus the Son of God.

Mary will definitely be one of whom I will look for in Glory to give a big hug and with a new spiritual mind, give her my deepest appreciation for her calling to give birth to her Son the Savior of all who were there in the New Jerusalem giving praise to the Father and His Son.

GOD, GIVE US ALL A TRUTHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR AMAZING MARY!
Chopper
Can't be more perfectly said. Very thoughtful post.
Let me just say for the readers that in Catholic doctrine and theology Mary cannot forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin. This is common doctrine.

Just to clarify.

W
 
My theory is that Mary conceived by the same power that Jesus and others used to cast out demons, to raise the dead, to heal the sick, to enable the disciples to speak in other tongues, etc. By the resurrection power of God.

Science has proven that an genetically engineered egg can be brought to life by an electrical charge without any sperm. This is how both sheep, Dolly and Polly, began. If man, with our merger abilities, can do such a thing surely God's power is much greater.
Jesus the Christ, Son of God, Son of Man/mankind.

Hey, good to see you back, I've missed your wisdom, knowledge, and Super Woman posts. :wave2 :hug
 
Chopper
Can't be more perfectly said. Very thoughtful post.
Let me just say for the readers that in Catholic doctrine and theology Mary cannot forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin. This is common doctrine.

Just to clarify.

W
:sorry2x I thought part of saying the rosary contained something like forgiveness of sin. :blush
Thanks for correcting my flawed knowledge....Love You. :hug
 
:sorry2x I thought part of saying the rosary contained something like forgiveness of sin. :blush
Thanks for correcting my flawed knowledge....Love You. :hug
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us, sinners
Now and at the hour of our death...
(this is what you must have been thinking of)

Saying the rosary also includes the Our Father or The Lord's Prayer, which, of course says:
Forgive us our debts (or trespasses, or sin)
as we forgive our debtors...

This doctrine they have right: Only God can forgive sin.

W
 
I've thought the exchange between Jesus and his mother at the Cana wedding was intriguing.

And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
As an outsider listening to this exchange, my reaction is "Eh? What just happened?" Jesus and Mary seemed to have a degree of understanding that was pretty cool. For that alone, I envy Mary. (Jesus has to pretty much spell out everything to me, slowly, repeatedly, and using small words. :) )
 
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us, sinners
Now and at the hour of our death...
(this is what you must have been thinking of)

Saying the rosary also includes the Our Father or The Lord's Prayer, which, of course says:
Forgive us our debts (or trespasses, or sin)
as we forgive our debtors...

This doctrine they have right: Only God can forgive sin.

W
Awwww, you're so sweet :halo for letting me off the hook of being an old forgetful fuddy/duddy.

Who Loves You, W.........................................................................................................................................................................I DO!
 
Not "pull her down" but view her as God sees her, and Christ saw her in Scripture. Since the "traditionalists" have elevated and venerated (if not worshipped) Mary far beyond what God requires, it is only right to point to Scripture and remind all that Mary was certainly highly privileged, but not elevated to the level of Queen of Heaven (which is idolatry).

Indeed her name does not occur EVEN ONCE in the epistles. Paul simply says regarding Christ "made of a woman" (Gal 4:4) and Christ invariably addressed her as "woman", not mother, and certainly not "mother of God". He even stated publicly when told that His mother was waiting to see Him, that all those who were His disciples were His mothers, and brothers, and sisters.
As I said; Mary is not to be worshiped.
The image of Mary given to us in Rev 12:1 is the source of the "Queen of heaven" view. (And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; RSV) The woman is later identified as Mary the mother of Jesus (12:5) and of all who "bear testimony to Jesus." (12:17) So, it's not something make up by those blakety-blank KATH-licks. It's directly out of scripture.

When Christ addressed his MOTHER as "woman" it was the same as some red-neck in a wife-beater T-shirt, watching NASCAR and hollering, "Hey woman! Git me anutha BEER!" It is more properly understood as "dear woman" because Jesus perfectly kept all the Law including the one that says, "Thou shalt honor thy mother and father." Depicting Jesus as addressing his mother as "woman", as if she were some dog, as you have done, ascribes sin to Jesus Christ for DIShonering his mother.

Has it been you habit to call your own mother "woman" in the disrespectful manner that you ascribe to Jesus? I seriously doubt it.

But you, and a multitude of others, would ascribe such disrespectful behavior to Jesus in order to denigrate the mother of God made flesh. Why is that? It is because you have been taught to hate anything that sounds too Catholic and in you hatred of the body of Christ in the Roman church, you are eagerly willing to ascribe sin even to Jesus Christ your Savior by portraying your LORD as addressing His mother in a disrespectful manner.
 
Awwww, you're so sweet :halo for letting me off the hook of being an old forgetful fuddy/duddy.

Who Loves You, W.........................................................................................................................................................................I DO!
No hooks for you Chopper!
:hug

Wondering
 
As I said; Mary is not to be worshiped.
The image of Mary given to us in Rev 12:1 is the source of the "Queen of heaven" view. (And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; RSV) The woman is later identified as Mary the mother of Jesus (12:5) and of all who "bear testimony to Jesus." (12:17) So, it's not something make up by those blakety-blank KATH-licks. It's directly out of scripture.

When Christ addressed his MOTHER as "woman" it was the same as some red-neck in a wife-beater T-shirt, watching NASCAR and hollering, "Hey woman! Git me anutha BEER!" It is more properly understood as "dear woman" because Jesus perfectly kept all the Law including the one that says, "Thou shalt honor thy mother and father." Depicting Jesus as addressing his mother as "woman", as if she were some dog, as you have done, ascribes sin to Jesus Christ for DIShonering his mother.

Has it been you habit to call your own mother "woman" in the disrespectful manner that you ascribe to Jesus? I seriously doubt it.

But you, and a multitude of others, would ascribe such disrespectful behavior to Jesus in order to denigrate the mother of God made flesh. Why is that? It is because you have been taught to hate anything that sounds too Catholic and in you hatred of the body of Christ in the Roman church, you are eagerly willing to ascribe sin even to Jesus Christ your Savior by portraying your LORD as addressing His mother in a disrespectful manner.
This "woman" thing has always intrigued me.
There's a poster who constantly says that we must use hermeneutics and biblical exegesis for everything Jesus said and by carrying this to an extreme practically says that nothing He said is of any value because we're not living in that time. I don't agree with this. If Jesus said Don't Hate Your Neighbor, I do believe He meant we are NOT to hate our neighbor (in fact we are to love him).

In this case, that poster would be 100% correct. Language evolves and changes. New expressions are thought up, words take on different meanings. Remember when "gay" meant you were happy? Try saying "I'm feeling gay" today!

The NIV puts the word "dear" before "woman" in John 2:4 Jesus changes wine to water. This still doesn't explain it, does it?

How to put yourself in the head of people living 2,000 years ago. Jesus also called His mother "woman" when she was at the foot of the cross. He also called the Samartian woman at the well "woman". John 4:21
Also, Peter calls someone "woman" in Luke 22:57 when negating knowing Jesus for the first time after Jesus' arrest.

So, of course, Jesus didn't mean "Hey, woman, get me a beer." (I think this is grounds for divorce, BTW! LOL)
But what DID He mean?

This is totally my idea. I think He was separating Mary from the role of Mother. In the sense that in some circumstances He (or anyone of that time) recognized her as a mother. For example: Mother, come, let me take you to Jerusalem. There is the intimacy of son/mother. He wishes to do something for his MOTHER in the capacity of a SON.

At the wedding in Cana, He is separating Hmself from Mary as his mother. He puts her into a different catagory - one more general and not as personal. One not having to do with son/mother but man/woman. He as a man at the wedding, separate from his mother - two separate beings. Each one with a different mission.

Same at the cross. He was giving her away to John. Jesus calls Mary, Woman, but He refers to her as Mother to John since she will now become John's MOTHER. Again, he separated the Mother aspect of Mary from her Woman aspect.

As for the rest of what you say, I agree. Catholics go overboard and Protestants can't quite let go and give Mary the honor she is due. I'll often hear that Mary is not mentioned in scripture and I've thought about this. The N.T. is about Jesus and Luke wasn't written yet when the disciples were growing in number after Jesus' ascension. Only after some investigating was Luke able to write Luke 1:43-55. I doubt the original apostles thought of Mary in any other way than as Jesus' mother. They were feeling their own loss and pain - it's not easy to feel the other person's "life." They might have had a very high regard for her, and they might have gone their own ways and not considered her too much. But we have hindsight now and, indeed, what other woman can say she raised Jesus, the Son of God?

Wondering
 
As I said; Mary is not to be worshiped.
The image of Mary given to us in Rev 12:1 is the source of the "Queen of heaven" view. (And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; RSV) The woman is later identified as Mary the mother of Jesus (12:5) and of all who "bear testimony to Jesus." (12:17) So, it's not something make up by those blakety-blank KATH-licks. It's directly out of scripture.
The woman in Revelation is not definitively Mary, the mother of Jesus. The end of the passage reads

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus... (Revelation 12:17 ESV)
It's hard for me to square Mary, mother of Jesus, as being the mother of all who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Also, if you see the woman in Revelation as the mother of Jesus, it hard to avoid going in odd directions in explaining her being clothed with the sun, moon, twelve stars, and being given wings to escape to the wilderness to avoid Satan. Personally, it seems more fitting to see the woman in Revelation as the Jewish nation.

Hopefully, this does not place me in the camp that accuses my "blakety-blank KATH-lick" brethren of making things up. (It is possible to disagree strongly with someone you love. :) )
 
This "woman" thing has always intrigued me.
There's a poster who constantly says that we must use hermeneutics and biblical exegesis for everything Jesus said and by carrying this to an extreme practically says that nothing He said is of any value because we're not living in that time. I don't agree with this. If Jesus said Don't Hate Your Neighbor, I do believe He meant we are NOT to hate our neighbor (in fact we are to love him).

In this case, that poster would be 100% correct. Language evolves and changes. New expressions are thought up, words take on different meanings. Remember when "gay" meant you were happy? Try saying "I'm feeling gay" today!

The NIV puts the word "dear" before "woman" in John 2:4 Jesus changes wine to water. This still doesn't explain it, does it?

How to put yourself in the head of people living 2,000 years ago. Jesus also called His mother "woman" when she was at the foot of the cross. He also called the Samartian woman at the well "woman". John 4:21
Also, Peter calls someone "woman" in Luke 22:57 when negating knowing Jesus for the first time after Jesus' arrest.

So, of course, Jesus didn't mean "Hey, woman, get me a beer." (I think this is grounds for divorce, BTW! LOL)
But what DID He mean?

This is totally my idea. I think He was separating Mary from the role of Mother. In the sense that in some circumstances He (or anyone of that time) recognized her as a mother. For example: Mother, come, let me take you to Jerusalem. There is the intimacy of son/mother. He wishes to do something for his MOTHER in the capacity of a SON.

At the wedding in Cana, He is separating Hmself from Mary as his mother. He puts her into a different catagory - one more general and not as personal. One not having to do with son/mother but man/woman. He as a man at the wedding, separate from his mother - two separate beings. Each one with a different mission.

Same at the cross. He was giving her away to John. Jesus calls Mary, Woman, but He refers to her as Mother to John since she will now become John's MOTHER. Again, he separated the Mother aspect of Mary from her Woman aspect.

As for the rest of what you say, I agree. Catholics go overboard and Protestants can't quite let go and give Mary the honor she is due. I'll often hear that Mary is not mentioned in scripture and I've thought about this. The N.T. is about Jesus and Luke wasn't written yet when the disciples were growing in number after Jesus' ascension. Only after some investigating was Luke able to write Luke 1:43-55. I doubt the original apostles thought of Mary in any other way than as Jesus' mother. They were feeling their own loss and pain - it's not easy to feel the other person's "life." They might have had a very high regard for her, and they might have gone their own ways and not considered her too much. But we have hindsight now and, indeed, what other woman can say she raised Jesus, the Son of God?

Wondering
I find it interesting that folk have so many different interpretations about what Jesus was meaning when He used the word "Woman". It is my opinion that WHENEVER Jesus used that word for His Mother, He had in mind of....Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother."

Therefore, Jesus the Son of God would never have used the word "woman" in a disrespectful manner. It would have ALWAYS been with the highest respect and honor, which means a high and lofty opinion. Also, when we honor someone, we position that person, in our mind, higher in respect to ourselves. Or in our language, "Better than me."

Anyway, thank you for your post Wonder Woman, I always enjoy what you have to say, and pick up new information that is pleasing.
 
Here's another phrase i don't understand Jim.. you say "the mother of God made flesh" sounds like "and the word became flesh" kind a like deifying her?

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
 
As I said; Mary is not to be worshiped.
The image of Mary given to us in Rev 12:1 is the source of the "Queen of heaven" view. (And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; RSV) The woman is later identified as Mary the mother of Jesus (12:5) and of all who "bear testimony to Jesus." (12:17) So, it's not something make up by those blakety-blank KATH-licks. It's directly out of scripture.

When Christ addressed his MOTHER as "woman" it was the same as some red-neck in a wife-beater T-shirt, watching NASCAR and hollering, "Hey woman! Git me anutha BEER!" It is more properly understood as "dear woman" because Jesus perfectly kept all the Law including the one that says, "Thou shalt honor thy mother and father." Depicting Jesus as addressing his mother as "woman", as if she were some dog, as you have done, ascribes sin to Jesus Christ for DIShonering his mother.

Has it been you habit to call your own mother "woman" in the disrespectful manner that you ascribe to Jesus? I seriously doubt it.

But you, and a multitude of others, would ascribe such disrespectful behavior to Jesus in order to denigrate the mother of God made flesh. Why is that? It is because you have been taught to hate anything that sounds too Catholic and in you hatred of the body of Christ in the Roman church, you are eagerly willing to ascribe sin even to Jesus Christ your Savior by portraying your LORD as addressing His mother in a disrespectful manner.

Mary is never mentioned in Rev 12:1.

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.
 
That's why I specifically said that Mary is to be venerated but NOT worshiped.

It appears to be a scripture vs. "that sounds too Catholic" thing.

You need to address this Jim if you say Mary is not to be worshiped..

"Jesus was incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary."

Your making Mary incarnate of the Holy Spirit...
 
But you, and a multitude of others, would ascribe such disrespectful behavior to Jesus in order to denigrate the mother of God made flesh.
Nothing was said about "disrespect". What was clearly pointed out is that Christ distanced Himself from His mother by consistently addressing her as "woman". And the woman in Revelation 12 is symbolic of Israel, not Mary. The context will confirm that.
 
We're looking through our own cultural lens when we assume Jesus addressing His mother as 'woman' is some sort of disrespect. It would have been a sin for Jesus to dishonor His mother. Jesus is sinless. Therefore Jesus did not dishonor His mother.

Through my own cultural lens Jesus would have insulted His mother had He called her 'Mary'.
 
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