Matt 23:1-3 question

[Paul Timothy]

You say water refers to natural birth
But Jn 3:5 says by both water AND the spirit
Vs 22 they went to the river (water) and baptized
Thanks

And did you read John 3:6?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Ti

Timothy is an apostle the successor of paul

The apostles send more apostles till Christ returns Jn 20:21 acts 1:26
Thanks

Don't tell me they also gambled for Timothy's position.

Sounds like the apostles had a gambling problem.

 

[donadams]

Why bother giving you proof if you refuse to look and read what I gave you in that certain website that gives all 613 Levitical commands of God wherein the so called ten, not being separate, but a part of.

Those who were baptized by John the Baptist, as there were no baptism's in water before this, was for repentance or others words of John, preparing the way of the Lord, as the actual water was only symbolic of the washing away of sin. The Baptism of Christ is for receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John the Baptist could not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ as He had not yet come to John's baptism, nor did anyone at the time of John receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when they were immersed in water. Look at what John the Baptist said to the Pharisees who thought they were without sin as they believed they were made righteous by their own righteousness (self), but yet hypocrites in the eyes of God.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

No prefigurements of baptism? Really

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

Water and the spirit!

First creation:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(water and the spirit)

Noah:

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove (representing the spirit) from him…

(Water and the spirit)

Red Sea:

Led thru the waters by the spirit.
Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

(Water and the spirit)

Josuha

Joshua and the people of Israel crossing of the Jordan led by the spirit.

Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

(Water and the spirit)

Prophecy of the new creation: (new covenant)

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you…
acts 2:38-39 “this promise”

(Water and the Spirit)

Baptism of Jesus

Jn 1:31 I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

(Water and the spirit)

New creation by water and the spirit

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Water and the spirit)

Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is by: WATER AND THE SPIRIT!

All prefigure baptism

Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted bythe rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

The cross and baptism
Thanks

 

[for_his_glory]

No list under “deeds”
No list of the ten

Open the link https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm click on DEEDS click on list of 613 commands and also click on The ten commandments as all these 613 are found in scripture. Some for the Jew only as some are for both Jew and Gentile.

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

 

[donadams]

Speaking of Old Testament types do you see the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt as a type if purgatory just as the “promised land” was a type of heaven ?

Ark of the covenant and Esther types of Mary?

This is why I believe the word "water" in John 3:5 means word as in living word. I see nothing wrong with being immersed in water like John's water baptism, but I see it as only an outward appearance of an inward conversion through the Spiritual rebirth from above.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

John 1:1-14, read all the verses, but especially notice vs. 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. This is the Spiritual rebirth from above Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3 and has nothing to do with literal water. The word made flesh in Christ brings salvation to all who hear the preaching of the Gospel. First comes hearing then confessing we are sinners needing God's grace through faith as we repent of our sins accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Once we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior them immediately comes the baptism Christ talked about being God's gift of the Holy Spirit as we are baptized into Christ as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as we are sealed unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. Everything comes by the word of God and by His Holy Spirit, not by water.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John's baptism by immersion in water was only for repentance as an outward appearance to others as in, "prepare ye the way of the Lord make straight your path". It was in preparation for the coming of Christ in accepting Him as Lord and Savior. We are not made clean by being immersed in water, but only by the blood of the Lamb, Isaiah 1:18; Matthew 26:26-28; Romans 3:5; Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. Since there is a comma before "but his disciples" this can be taken two different ways. Meaning Christ only water baptized His 12 disciples or the disciples baptized others in water which could be a possibility even before the commission in Matthew 28:19, 20, but can only be speculated. The original letters would not have had punctuation and we need to read without punctuation that can change the meaning of the original letters.

The baptism of Christ being that of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit could not be done until Jesus ascended up to heaven and then God sent down His Holy Spirit to indwell those by faith that confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior like the 120 in the upper room when according to Acts 1:3 Christ to whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

There are around 1526 instances of living water in the Bible and here are just a few: John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22

Try again

Ezekiel 47:22

King James Version

​

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

No water here

The others refer to baptismal regeneration

 

[donadams]

Christ’s body is the temple

From his side flowed blood and water (sacraments)

 

[donadams]

Your verse John 3:22 is different than what is in the Bible.

So I paraphrased, is that crime?

John 3:22

King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.​

Happy now?

Same as immediately!

And that not the inspired word of God by the by!

Only the original manuscripts were inspired these are copies and translations
Thanks

 

[donadams]

And did you read John 3:6?

The spirit is included and grace by the sacrament of baptism

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

 

[donadams]

Don't tell me they also gambled for Timothy's position.

Sounds like the apostles had a gambling problem.

No but Paul chose him and sent him
Acts 1 does not refer to gambling
They also prayed

I don’t gamble by the way, but it’s only immoral if it’s more that expendable funds for entertainment within moderation

Example: Gambling the rent money would be immoral

Thanks

 

[for_his_glory]

No prefigurements of baptism? Really

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

Water and the spirit!

First creation:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(water and the spirit)

Noah:

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove (representing the spirit) from him…

(Water and the spirit)

Red Sea:

Led thru the waters by the spirit.
Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

(Water and the spirit)

Josuha

Joshua and the people of Israel crossing of the Jordan led by the spirit.

Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

(Water and the spirit)

Prophecy of the new creation: (new covenant)

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you…
acts 2:38-39 “this promise”

(Water and the Spirit)

Baptism of Jesus

Jn 1:31 I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

(Water and the spirit)

New creation by water and the spirit

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Water and the spirit)

Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is by: WATER AND THE SPIRIT!

All prefigure baptism

Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted bythe rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

The cross and baptism
Thanks

John 2:6
The waterpots in themselves are a Jewish tradition of placing these pots outside the wedding feast so everyone could wash their hands and feet before entering into the feast. The significance of there being six water pots of stone is that the number six represents the number of the beast (666 Rev 13:18) or sinful nations that are being controlled by Satan using others to deceive man like he used a serpent to deceive Adam and Eve as Satan is a spirit that has no form and has to use whatever or whomever he can to work through to deceive man.

When Jesus asked the servants to fill the waterpots with water and then he changed the water into wine is a Spiritual representation of the water being the word of God (faith comes by hearing the word) and the wine being the Holy Spirit as it is only by the word of God and his Holy Spirit that we can see the kingdom of God through a renewed Spiritual rebirth through repentance. John 3:5 never uses the word baptism.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (IE. Baptism of Christ) was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

 

[for_his_glory]

Speaking of Old Testament types do you see the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt as a type if purgatory just as the “promised land” was a type of heaven ?

Ark of the covenant and Esther types of Mary?


Try again

Ezekiel 47:22​

​

King James Version​

​

​

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

No water here

The others refer to baptismal regeneration

No such thing as purgatory, even though Catholics teach there is. I found this one day searching about purgatory, but never listed where I found it so this is not my work but have the Jerusalem Bible that has the books of Maccabees in and read the scriptures there.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. In Psalms 88 we see Heman was asking God these three questions in vs. 10-12 as he was sore plexed in approching his own death and was not sure that he would escape the wrath of God in judgement and was wondering if those who died who are in the grave could hear Gods voice. Psalms 6:5; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 8:21,22; 2 Corinthians 5:8-11; Revelation 14:13 are just for a few scriptures all state the grave is a place of unconscienceness where there is no memory and souls are not capable of anything as it is dark silence waiting that of Gods judgement at the end of time when Christ returns and separates the sheep from the goats. They have no knowledge, no comfort, no praise of God, and most assuredly, no power of intercession.

2 Macabbes 12:38-45 Judas Maccabaeus is speaking about the sacrifice for the fallen who were found to have pagan idols on them when they died and this was the reason for their death as it is against God to have such idols in ones posession. It was clear to everyone why these men lost their lives. All of them blest the Lord and gave themselves to prayer begging that the sin commited by those who died would be blotted out. Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from sin, seeing with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen. Judas then took a collection of money and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered. Although a fine and nobel action in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. Whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who made a pious end, the though was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be released from their sin.

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

This is where the Roman Catholic Church came up with the concept of purgatory. Hopefully this will clear some things up we have been discussing. Also here is a good website that explains why the two books of Maccabees are not found in the KJV Bible

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

Jerusalem Bible
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
The sacrifice for the fallen

12:38 Judas then rallied his army and moved on to the town of Adullam, and since the seventh day of the week had arrived they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath in that place.
12:39 The next day they came to Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs.
12:40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives.
12:41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light,
12:42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;
12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection.
12:44 For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
12:45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.



How do Catholic indulgences work?
The Catholic Church teaches that indulgences relieve only the temporal punishment resulting from the effect of sin (the effect of rejecting God the source of good), and that a person is still required to have their grave sins absolved, ordinarily through the sacrament of Confession, to receive salvation.

Are indulgences in the Bible?
In Luther's time papal indulgences were being sold not only for the living but also for the dead. As soon as the money in the coffin rings, "the soul from purgatory springs to heaven," was a common saying of the times. The sale of indulgences is just one of several things the Catholic Church does that isn't Biblical.

When did Catholic indulgences start?
The indulgence system was formalized by Pope Urban II (1035–1099) during the Council of Clermont in 1095. If an individual performed enough good deeds to earn a full or 'Plenary' indulgence from the Pope or lesser ranks of churchmen, all their sins (and punishment) would be erased.

Do indulgences cost money?
You can get one for yourself, or for someone who is dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day. It has no currency in the bad place

What does being in purgatory mean?

purgatory, the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which, according to medieval Christian and Roman Catholic belief, the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven.

 

[Paul Timothy]

So I paraphrased, is that crime?

John 3:22​

​

King James Version​

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.​

Happy now?

Same as immediately!

And that not the inspired word of God by the by!

Only the original manuscripts were inspired these are copies and translations
Thanks

OK... but you point was that they immediately baptized.. my point was the "after these things... land of Judea".

That shows a leter time and location. And that is what you objected to.

So now you are saying I was correct.
Thank you.

 

[Paul Timothy]

The spirit is included and grace by the sacrament of baptism

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

All of what you posted is off topic. My question was if you read John 3:6. That verse explains John 3:5.

You long post was unnecessary.

 

[Paul Timothy]

No but Paul chose him and sent him
Acts 1 does not refer to gambling
They also prayed

Prayed and cast lots.
I know many a gambler that prays everytime the duce roll.

I don’t gamble by the way, but it’s only immoral if it’s more that expendable funds for entertainment within moderation

Example: Gambling the rent money would be immoral

Thanks

Never said anything about moralty.

 

[for_his_glory]

Speaking of Old Testament types do you see the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt as a type if purgatory just as the “promised land” was a type of heaven ?

Ark of the covenant and Esther types of Mary?


Try again

Ezekiel 47:22​

​

King James Version​

​

​

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

No water here

The others refer to baptismal regeneration

So we disagree, but I'm not going to make a big issue about it, but only want to discuss the differences, but you do not like to discuss so I will leave it alone.

 

[donadams]

Open the link https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm click on DEEDS click on list of 613 commands and also click on The ten commandments as all these 613 are found in scripture. Some for the Jew only as some are for both Jew and Gentile.

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

View attachment 15307

Scripture don’t have lists!
It’s not a catechism
Not a creed
Christ founded the church to provide those Matt 28:19

Are all the truths revealed by God in Christ found fin scripture?

Is the word of God limited to scripture?

Does the church require scripture to know the truth?
Thanks

 

[Iconoclast]

Scripture don’t have lists!
It’s not a catechism
Not a creed
Christ founded the church to provide those Matt 28:19

Are all the truths revealed by God in Christ found fin scripture?

Is the word of God limited to scripture?

Does the church require scripture to know the truth?
Thanks

SOME ROMAN CATHOLIC HERESIES AND INVENTIONSand the dates of their adoption over a period of 1,650 years
1. Prayers for the dead: began about A.D. 300.
2. Making the sign of the cross: A.D. 300.
3. Wax candles: about A.D. 320.
4. Veneration of angels and dead saints, and use of images: A.D. 375.
5. The Mass, as a daily celebration: A.D. 394.
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary, the term “Mother of God” first applied to her bythe Council of Ephesus: A.D. 431.
7. Priests began to dress differently from laymen: A.D. 500.
8. Extreme Unction: A.D. 526.
9. The doctrine of Purgatory, established by Gregory I: A.D. 593.
10. Latin language, used in prayer and worship, imposed by Gregory I: A.D. 600.
11. Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints, and angels: about A.D. 600.
12. Title of pope, or universal bishop, given to Boniface III by emperor Phocas: A.D. 607.
13. Kissing the pope’s foot, began with Pope Constantine: A.D. 709.
14. Temporal power of the popes, conferred by Pepin, king of the Franks: A.D. 750.
15. Worship of the cross, images, and relics: authorized in A.D. 786.
16. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest: A.D. 850.
17. Worship of St. Joseph: A.D. 890.
18. College of Cardinals established: A.D. 927.
19. Baptism of bells, instituted by pope John XIII: A.D. 965
.20. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV: A.D. 995.
21. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent: A.D. 998.
22. The Mass, developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory in the 11thcentury.
23. Celibacy of the priesthood, decreed by pope Gregory VII (Hildebrand): A.D. 1079.
24. The Rosary, mechanical praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit: A.D. 1090.
25. The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona: A.D. 1184.
26. Sale of Indulgences: A.D. 1190
.27. Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III: A.D. 1215.
28. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest instead of to God, instituted by Pope InnocentIII, in Lateran Council: A.D. 1215.
29. Adoration of the wafer (Host), decreed by Pope Honorius III: A.D. 1220.
30. Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council ofToulouse: A.D. 1229.
31. The Scapular, invented by Simon Stock, an English monk: A.D. 1251.
32. Cup forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance: A.D. 1414.
33. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence: A.D. 1439.
34. The doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed: A.D. 1439
35. The Ave Maria (part of the last half was completed 50 years later and approved byPope Sixtus V at the end of the 16thcentury): A.D. 1508.
36. Jesuit order founded by Loyola: A.D. 1534.
37. Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent: A.D.1545.
38. Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent: A.D. 1546.
39. Creed of pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed: A.D. 1560
.40. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX: A.D. 1854.
41. Syllabus of Errors, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX and ratified by the Vatican Council;condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press, and scientific discoverieswhich are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the pope’s temporal authority overall civil rulers: A.D. 1864.
42. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the VaticanCouncil: A.D. 1870
.43. Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XI: A.D. 1930.
44. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death),proclaimed by Pope Pius XII: A.D. 1950.
45. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI: A.D. 1965.
Add to these many others: monks, nuns, monasteries, convents, forty days Lent, holy week, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, All Saints day, Candlemas day, fish day, meat days, incense, holy oil, holy palms, Christopher medals, charms, novenas, and still others.
There you have it—the melancholy evidence of Rome’s steadily increasing departure from the simplicity of the Gospel, a departure so radical and far-reaching at the present time that it has produced a drastically anti-evangelical church. It is clear beyond possibility of doubt that the Roman Catholic religion as now practiced is the outgrowth of centuries of error.
https://ia600906.us.archive.org/24/...oman Catholicism, Loraine Boettner (1962).pdf

 

[donadams]

John 2:6
The waterpots in themselves are a Jewish tradition of placing these pots outside the wedding feast so everyone could wash their hands and feet before entering into the feast. The significance of there being six water pots of stone is that the number six represents the number of the beast (666 Rev 13:18) or sinful nations that are being controlled by Satan using others to deceive man like he used a serpent to deceive Adam and Eve as Satan is a spirit that has no form and has to use whatever or whomever he can to work through to deceive man.

When Jesus asked the servants to fill the waterpots with water and then he changed the water into wine is a Spiritual representation of the water being the word of God (faith comes by hearing the word) and the wine being the Holy Spirit as it is only by the word of God and his Holy Spirit that we can see the kingdom of God through a renewed Spiritual rebirth through repentance. John 3:5 never uses the word baptism.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (IE. Baptism of Christ) was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Still a prefigurement of baptismal regeneration that does wash away sin
Do you honor the early church fathers? Believe them?
Thanks

 

[donadams]

No such thing as purgatory, even though Catholics teach there is. I found this one day searching about purgatory, but never listed where I found it so this is not my work but have the Jerusalem Bible that has the books of Maccabees in and read the scriptures there.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. In Psalms 88 we see Heman was asking God these three questions in vs. 10-12 as he was sore plexed in approching his own death and was not sure that he would escape the wrath of God in judgement and was wondering if those who died who are in the grave could hear Gods voice. Psalms 6:5; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 8:21,22; 2 Corinthians 5:8-11; Revelation 14:13 are just for a few scriptures all state the grave is a place of unconscienceness where there is no memory and souls are not capable of anything as it is dark silence waiting that of Gods judgement at the end of time when Christ returns and separates the sheep from the goats. They have no knowledge, no comfort, no praise of God, and most assuredly, no power of intercession.

2 Macabbes 12:38-45 Judas Maccabaeus is speaking about the sacrifice for the fallen who were found to have pagan idols on them when they died and this was the reason for their death as it is against God to have such idols in ones posession. It was clear to everyone why these men lost their lives. All of them blest the Lord and gave themselves to prayer begging that the sin commited by those who died would be blotted out. Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from sin, seeing with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen. Judas then took a collection of money and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered. Although a fine and nobel action in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. Whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who made a pious end, the though was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be released from their sin.

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

This is where the Roman Catholic Church came up with the concept of purgatory. Hopefully this will clear some things up we have been discussing. Also here is a good website that explains why the two books of Maccabees are not found in the KJV Bible

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

Jerusalem Bible
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
The sacrifice for the fallen

12:38 Judas then rallied his army and moved on to the town of Adullam, and since the seventh day of the week had arrived they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath in that place.
12:39 The next day they came to Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs.
12:40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives.
12:41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light,
12:42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;
12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection.
12:44 For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
12:45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.



How do Catholic indulgences work?
The Catholic Church teaches that indulgences relieve only the temporal punishment resulting from the effect of sin (the effect of rejecting God the source of good), and that a person is still required to have their grave sins absolved, ordinarily through the sacrament of Confession, to receive salvation.

Are indulgences in the Bible?
In Luther's time papal indulgences were being sold not only for the living but also for the dead. As soon as the money in the coffin rings, "the soul from purgatory springs to heaven," was a common saying of the times. The sale of indulgences is just one of several things the Catholic Church does that isn't Biblical.

When did Catholic indulgences start?
The indulgence system was formalized by Pope Urban II (1035–1099) during the Council of Clermont in 1095. If an individual performed enough good deeds to earn a full or 'Plenary' indulgence from the Pope or lesser ranks of churchmen, all their sins (and punishment) would be erased.

Do indulgences cost money?
You can get one for yourself, or for someone who is dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day. It has no currency in the bad place

What does being in purgatory mean?

purgatory, the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which, according to medieval Christian and Roman Catholic belief, the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven.

Accusations
Do you really believe in soul sleep?
Or only the physical body is in the grave?

 

[donadams]

Biblical Purgatory:

Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:







Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.
Jn 1:16

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, they were attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!

If we sin after baptism we must repent and confess and receive God’s mercy but then we must do penance to expiate the temporal punishment due to God’s justice for sin and if fail to do so in this life God provides a means to do so by suffering in purgatory, and the prayers and penances of living saints can give relief to those in purgatory.