Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[felix]

Felix, I saw that you said that you were always open to correction, I hope this is an instance where you'll stand corrected... we Christians should be very wary of putting added burdens upon others... and stating that Christ is advocating self-mutilation here is about as onnerous a burden I can imagine.

Christ speaks about 3 kinds of eunuchs:

• Born eunuchs
• Made by others as eunuchs
• Made themselves as eunuchs

There is no one born with a celibacy mindset as a baby. No one can force others not to have sex or marry as they can do in secret too. But yet, you want the last part of what Jesus said about eunuch to be figurative and not literal although the first 2 parts are purely literal.

Why is the simple truth in what Christ said directly is so twisted?

 

[felix]

That is flawed theology. The universe along with other worlds (plural) were created by Christ/God. (surely in UNITY of ALL!) And ETERNAL COVENANT means only mankind? Hardly, the ones of Rev. 17:1-5 I suspect mostly teach that? Yet ETERNAL means that the WORD OF GOD is not believed by you??? (that is a question? Rev. 22:18-19)

Elijah, everlasting or eternal does not automatically include all. What a irrational logic!

The so called "everlasting covenant" given to David in 2Sam 23:5 is NOT for you and me or any angel.

(2Sam 23:5) "Although my house [is] not so with God, Yet He has made with me an everlasting covenant, Ordered in all [things] and secure. For [this is] all my salvation and all [my] desire; Will He not make [it] increase?

God made a covenant with Israel. Not Gentiles and angels.

(1Chr 16:17) And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel [for] an everlasting covenant,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Felix,

Look at the passage...

9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife (don't divorce), it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word (don't divorce), but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this (don't divorce) should accept it.” (Matthew 19:9-12 NIV)

The parentheses I added help us see what the passage is about. It's about not divorcing, not cutting off the testicles. The man who is married but wants a divorce should accept his fate for the sake of the kingdom of God.

Think spiritually.

 

[felix]

Jethro Bodine,

Look at the passage...

9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.â€

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation (adultery) between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.â€

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word (not to marry), but only those to whom it has been given (who cannot marry). 12 For there are eunuchs (who cannot marry) who were born that way, and there are eunuchs (who cannot marry) who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who [choose to live like? - Sorry, nothing in Greek says this] who made themselves eunuchs (who cannot marry) for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this (who cannot marry) should accept it.(that he cannot marry)†(Matthew 19:9-12 NIV)

The parentheses I added help us see what the passage is about. It's about those who cannot marry, not divorcing as you mentioned. Isn't so silly in arguing that the entire passage what Jesus said is about "not divorcing", yet the first two kinds of eunuchs can't even marry to even give a divorce?

Think spiritually.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah, everlasting or eternal does not automatically include all. What a irrational logic!
____
You are correct! But it does INCLUDE THE ETERNAL COVENANT TEN COMMANDMENTS! Those are Word's of Inspiration friend. (not mine & surely not yours!
____

The so called "everlasting covenant" given to David in 2Sam 23:5 is NOT for you and me or any angel.

(2Sam 23:5) "Although my house [is] not so with God, Yet He has made with me an everlasting covenant, Ordered in all [things] and secure. For [this is] all my salvation and all [my] desire; Will He not make [it] increase?
______
You need to find the difference as seen in Deut. 31:26 of the Moses covenant & inside the Ark of God and His Eternal Covenant.
______

God made a covenant with Israel. Not Gentiles and angels.

______
This is you talking, not Inspiration. Heb. 13:20 has the High Priest for/known in Eternity with this Plan of Salvation when it was to be needed. And it was for Their creation, not for just the 'hybred Jew'!
As given before Abe was seen called of God because he was doing what?? In Gen. 26:5. And these were Everlasting Commandments with some statues seen. Even before the flood we find the clean + unclean in documentation.
_______

(1Chr 16:17) And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel [for] an everlasting covenant,

_______

And "Eunuches from the womb"? Some are born with defects. Some choose not to marry, (Christ, Paul? which was no doubt married at one time to be in membership with the Sandheidren?) and some were made so by kings & the like. But none casterated theirself at Gods command!

--Elijah

 

[felix]

Just because you quote some verses doesn't mean what you say is correct.

You need to find the difference as seen in Deut. 31:26 of the Moses covenant & inside the Ark of God and His Eternal Covenant.

Does this have anything to do with the covenant given to David in 2Sam 23:5? Does the covenants in Deut. 31:26 to Israel and 2Sam 23:5 to only David in anyway prove that they are for angels?

This is you talking, not Inspiration. Heb. 13:20 has the High Priest for/known in Eternity with this Plan of Salvation when it was to be needed. And it was for Their creation, not for just the 'hybred Jew'!

Does Heb. 13:20 have anything to prove that salvation is for angels? Then why did you even quote that?

As given before Abe was seen called of God because he was doing what?? In Gen. 26:5. And these were Everlasting Commandments with some statues seen. Even before the flood we find the clean + unclean in documentation.

Abraham obeying God's commandment in Gen. 26:5 which you quoted have anything to prove that the salvation plan is for angels including Satan?

Quoting scripture is good. But remember, even Satan can quote scripture to Christ.

And "Eunuches from the womb"? Some are born with defects. Some choose not to marry, (Christ, Paul? which was no doubt married at one time to be in membership with the Sandheidren?) and some were made so by kings & the like.

Choosing not to marry is different from being an Eunuch. Also, Scripture never actually says that Paul was a member of Sanhedrin - It is possible that he might have married earlier - not a sure thing.

But none casterated theirself at Gods command!

This is not a command. It is given only to those who are able to accept it - not for people who can't accept it - like you and me.

There are some people who had become eunuch themselves for the sake of Kingdom of Heaven.

• Origen
• Augustine of Hippo

 

[handy]

and there are eunuchs (who cannot marry) who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who [choose to live like? - Sorry, nothing in Greek says this] who made themselves eunuchs

Felix, I bolded part of your quote for emphasis... "Sorry, nothing in Greek says this"


Are you a scholar of the Greek language? If you are, forgive me, I didn't know you had those credientials...

Can you explain why your understanding of the Greek language doesn't include the metaphoriacal definition of eunouchos "one who voluntarily abstains from marriage" that is accepted and recorded by other Greek scholars?

 

[Elijah674]

Felix, I bolded part of your quote for emphasis... "Sorry, nothing in Greek says this"


Are you a scholar of the Greek language? If you are, forgive me, I didn't know you had those credientials...

Can you explain why your understanding of the Greek language doesn't include the metaphoriacal definition of eunouchos "one who voluntarily abstains from marriage" that is accepted and recorded by other Greek scholars?

Be patient, it takes time to mature!

 

[felix]

Felix, I bolded part of your quote for emphasis... "Sorry, nothing in Greek says this"


Are you a scholar of the Greek language? If you are, forgive me, I didn't know you had those credientials...

Can you explain why your understanding of the Greek language doesn't include the metaphoriacal definition of eunouchos "one who voluntarily abstains from marriage" that is accepted and recorded by other Greek scholars?

Because, a celibate in Greek is referred as "agamos" άγαμος not eunouchos εὐνοῦχος. Both are not interchangeable. Also, metaphoriacal definition of eunuchs being born and made by others is so silly trying to prove apples as oranges.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Also, metaphoriacal definition of eunuchs being born and made by others is so silly trying to prove apples as oranges.

Would you like to edit that sentence, because it makes no sense to me.
WHAT are you trying to say?

 

[felix]

Would you like to edit that sentence, because it makes no sense to me.
WHAT are you trying to say?

Jesus was speaking about 2 kinds of eunuchs before coming to the third kind of eunuch who made themselves. The first 2 kinds of eunuchs are often ignored by people who want to say Jesus was specifying the term "eunuch" only metamorphic.

If you take eunuchs who were born and eunuchs who were made as so by others in a metamorphic sense, it like taking apples and proving it to be oranges.

 

[handy]

Because, a celibate in Greek is referred as "agamos" άγαμος not eunouchos εὐνοῦχος. Both are not interchangeable. Also, metaphoriacal definition of eunuchs being born and made by others is so silly trying to prove apples as oranges.

So you are a Greek scholar... understanding the origianl language fully and not relying on lexicons, greek dictionaries and studies of the original language?


To my knowlege, no one is trying to say that eunuch born or mutilated is metaphorical... just because they are literal doesn't mean a metaphorical definition doesn't exist, nor that the metaphorical definition doesn't fit in very logically with what Jesus is saying in the text.

 

[felix]

To my knowlege, no one is trying to say that eunuch born or mutilated is metaphorical... just because they are literal doesn't mean a metaphorical definition doesn't exist, nor that the metaphorical definition doesn't fit in very logically with what Jesus is saying in the text.

There is no known vision or a prophecy or parable which is half metaphor and half literal.

 

[handy]

Felix, are you a Greek scholar, understanding the original language in your own right, and not relying upon lexicons, greek dictionaries and studies of the origianl language?

 

[felix]

Felix, are you a Greek scholar, understanding the original language in your own right, and not relying upon lexicons, greek dictionaries and studies of the origianl language?

You still haven't answered any of the questions I have posted. It's an old trick to attack on people's qualifications for their own defense. My qualification has nothing to do with the simple interpretation of what Christ told in Matthew 19:12.

Also, note that the only translation that support your view called NIV is actually translated by a bunch of non-true Christians for money starting from the OT dept head being a gay and the publisher actually publishing joy of gay sex and satanic bible. You do your research yourself. But that's not my point.

Let me prove what your NIV says:
(Matt 19:12) For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Jesus is basically teaching to to renounce marriage.

(1Tim 4:3) They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
Again, NIV says, forbidding people to marry is a doctrine of demons.

So, according to NIV, Jesus is teaching doctrine of demons. Well done.

 

[precepts]

Food for thought, all men have wet dreams if not sexually active, even the pope. The question is, do they, these eunuches for the kingdom, confess these dreams, or do they wipe their mouths and say we haven't committed any sin?

 

[felix]

Food for thought, all men have wet dreams if not sexually active, even the pope. The question is, do they, these eunuches for the kingdom, confess these dreams, or do they wipe their mouths and say we haven't committed any sin? :laugh:

Eunuchs do not have any sex hormones and they can't have wet dreams because their desire for sex is significantly reduced.

 

[handy]

Felix,

I don't use the NIV... never have, I don't find it a reliable translation due to many of the reasons you bring up...

I'm assuming that you're not a scholar...

The reason for my question isn't to attack you... I admit that sometimes I do go on the attack, but that's no my intention now.

The reason for my question is because I've checked several Greek lexicons... granted most go straight back to Strong's, but then Strongs is a highly reliable lexicon that is overwhelming accepted as correct, but there are a few others out there...

And, the lexicons and dictionarys of biblical Greek I looked at include a metaphorical definition of eunouchos as"one who voluntarily abstains from marriage".

Now, if you were a scholar of Biblical Greek and can give solid reasons why I should discount this metaphorical definition of eunouchos I'm open to listening.

But, so far, your argument against looking at this text is coming down to just examining the text itself... not a bad strategy by anymeans, but you included in one of your arguments this: "Sorry, nothing in Greek says this"

I've checked several sources of Biblical Greek and yes, the Greek word does have a metiphorical definition of one voluntarily abstaining from marriage.

Note the definition is voluntarily abstaining from marriage, not sex. This was discussed earilier, that this isn't mere celibacy outside of marriage... it's a committment of a lifetime of celebacy due to serving the kingdom. More than just celebacy, which is why Jesus isn't speaking of celibacy. Anyone single is called to celibacy, but not a lifetime of it, for they are free to marry.

However, there are those whom God does indeed call to be single, again John the Baptist comes to mind, as does Paul... not teaching that in the general way all men should committ to being single, but that some will be convicted of the indiviual call to remain single and commit their life to the work of the kingdom. There is a big difference between telling others they are not to marry, and an individual being convicted to remain single for life in service to God.

And, as Jethro points out, there are those in marriages that are forced to ether spousal rape or celibacy... and since the context of this passage indicates that one's spouse refuseing sex is no cause for divorce, the spouse who desires sex must either a: rape, a sin; b: divorce, a sin; c: commit adultery, a sin; or d: live the life of a eunuch, one who cannot have sex.

I counter the claim that "There is no known vision or a prophecy or parable which is half metaphor and half literal" with... Perhaps not, but Matthew 19 is a text which shows that the common liguistic practice of mixing the literal with the metaphor is at work here. It's not a vision, prophecy or parable, it's simply a teaching of Christ, but one in which the basic reading of the text will indicate that Jesus is using the literal eunuchs, those born asexual or mutilated as a metaphor for those who voluntarily live a single life (or if married a celibate life) in order to serve the kingdom of God.

And, this isn't the only time Christ does this... John 4:7-16 is an example in which the literal and the metaphoric is being interchanged in order to make a spiritual point. John 6 is yet another example, when Jesus changes from speaking of the literal manna to being the Bread of Life, a metaphoric statement.

I'm unaware of any questions you've asked me that I haven't tried to address. Point them out, and I'll do my best.

 

[handy]

Food for thought, all men have wet dreams if not sexually active, even the pope. The question is, do they, these eunuches for the kingdom, confess these dreams, or do they wipe their mouths and say we haven't committed any sin?

I'm unaware that a wet dream, something that happens unconsciously, is a sin.

How would something that one isn't doing consciously be sinful?

 

[felix]

And, this isn't the only time Christ does this... John 4:7-16 is an example in which the literal and the metaphoric is being interchanged in order to make a spiritual point. John 6 is yet another example, when Jesus changes from speaking of the literal manna to being the Bread of Life, a metaphoric statement.

The examples you provide are not mixing of literal and metaphoric but clearly specifies what Christ is referring to, whether it is a "living water" or "bread of life", the term itself shows it is metaphoric and not literal.