Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[felix]

Having read your earlier posts, handy, I see you "get it." The "celibacy cannon" should've been aimed at Felix's entrenchment.

Kudos to you for understanding the issue here is one of celibacy, not self-mutilation. :D

I still can't help but feel there was more than a little "playful banter" here between Christ and the disciples in this passage. But that's just me.

(John 14:10) "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority;] but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(John 6:63) "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

There is no "playful banter" here.

 

[Stormcrow]

Making fun of scripture verses doesn't change the scripture.

Wasn't making fun of scripture verses.

 

[Stormcrow]

(John 14:10) "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority;] but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(John 6:63) "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

There is no "playful banter" here.

Wasn't referring to John 14. But OK. You be humorless, I'll be the class clown and together we'll balance each other out.

 

[handy]

Felix, who would be these ones who cannot marry? Jesus isn't referring to men with birth defects or those forcibly mulitated... but those who eunuch themselves. Who? Who would be the men who cannot marry, why can't they marry, and why the need to undergo a mulilation so dangerous most of whom it was performed on died?
I agree Paul was expressing his own opinion, but nonetheless it's the opinion of a godly man worth considering. I would be careful with the 'always'... God's desire is that most marry... but not always, John the Baptist as well as Paul, himself comes to mind.

Stormcrow, one in every crowd eh...

 

[Pizzaguy]

Making fun of scripture verses doesn't change the scripture.

He was making fun of YOU and what you DO with scripture.

 

[Elijah674]

Nope.

(1Pet 1:12) To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things which angels desire to look into.


Gospel, law, prophecies and the entire Scripture was written for mankind - not for angels.

----

Could be, here in the K.J. is another translation. (some ones just pick & choose what best suits them?)

[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

And again, Rev. 14:6 has it the EVERLASTING GOSPEL.
And Heb. 13:20 has you saying that an ETERNAL COVENANT does not cover the Godheads UNIVERSE? (compare Rev. 22:8-9)
Heb 13
[20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
[21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So NO, You say that Christ could save NO angels from the heavens rebellion, and if so He NEEDED NO ETERNAL PLAN to do so??? And I find that He could & DID + being Lovingly PATIENT in so doing, as the Eccl. verses document!

And as I see it, to be repeated history, I find the Lord's WORD in explaining to Adam & Eve about the rebellion as well. At least somewhat. [STAY AWAY FROM THE FORBIDDEN TREE OR YOU WILL DIE]

--Elijah

PS: Lets just toss this 'parable' in also. If the reference includes also for the kingdom of heaven, surely they were all sleeping when satan tried to take over! I find that God states facts! we read, we hear & then seem to in time to forget or go to sleep!
Matt.25

[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

 

[felix]

Felix, who would be these ones who cannot marry? Jesus isn't referring to men with birth defects or those forcibly mulitated... but those who eunuch themselves. Who? Who would be the men who cannot marry, why can't they marry, and why the need to undergo a mulilation so dangerous most of whom it was performed on died?

(Matt 19:11-12) But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only [those] to whom it has been given:

• For there are eunuchs who were born thus from [their] mother's womb, and
• there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and
• there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

He who is able to accept [it,] let him accept [it."]

Christ is NOT asking everyone to accept it. He is asking ONLY the people who are ABLE TO accept.

I can't accept it as it is not given to me and I am not a Eunuch either. This does not mean I can change the literal meaning what Christ said to something that is more convenient to us and our modern culture.

 

[felix]

And again, Rev. 14:6 has it the EVERLASTING GOSPEL.
And Heb. 13:20 has you saying that an ETERNAL COVENANT does not cover the Godheads UNIVERSE? (compare Rev. 22:8-9)

The eternal covenant is between God and His people NOT His angels.

So NO, You say that Christ could save NO angels from the heavens rebellion, and if so He NEEDED NO ETERNAL PLAN to do so??? And I find that He could & DID + being Lovingly PATIENT in so doing, as the Eccl. verses document!

(Jude 1:6) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

And as I see it, to be repeated history, I find the Lord's WORD in explaining to Adam & Eve about the rebellion as well. At least somewhat. [STAY AWAY FROM THE FORBIDDEN TREE OR YOU WILL DIE]

True.. except they don't know what it meant esp. what "death" or "to die" means.

 

[felix]

He was making fun of YOU and what you DO with scripture.

If you go back and look why I said not to make fun of, you will find he made fun of what Christ said in "sermon on the mount" and this particular verse.

 

[WIP]

Let's please be careful that we stay on topic lest things take a sour turn.

 

[Stormcrow]

If you go back and look why I said not to make fun of, you will find he made fun of what Christ said in "sermon on the mount" and this particular verse.

All kidding aside, seriously, how many one-eyed, left-handed sopranos do you have on your church softball team again?

Because if the answer is "zero", that means no one in your church takes your interpretation of Christ's words about self-mutilation literally. Or seriously. Including you.

I'm not suggesting they should. I'm trying to figure out why you preach one thing and do another.

 

[felix]

All kidding aside, seriously, how many one-eyed, left-handed sopranos do you have on your church softball team again?

Because if the answer is "zero", that means no one in your church takes your interpretation of Christ's words about self-mutilation literally. Or seriously. Including you.

I'm not suggesting they should. I'm trying to figure out why you preach one thing and do another.

Just because someone doesn't follow Christ's teachings doesn't make Christ's teachings void. Neither did He spoke any idle words.

It is true what He meant. It is better to inherit the kingdom of Heaven by cutting off the flesh that causes you to sin than to have that flesh and keep sinning.

Matthew 19:12 is in consistent with Jesus's Sermon on the mount.

 

[Stormcrow]

Just because someone doesn't follow Christ's teachings doesn't make Christ's teachings void. Neither did He spoke any idle words.

It is true what He meant. It is better to inherit the kingdom of Heaven by cutting off the flesh that causes you to sin than to have that flesh and keep sinning.

Matthew 19:12 is in consistent with Jesus's Sermon on the mount.

Ah. So that whole "eat my flesh, drink my blood" thing means those who cannot do this since, you know, He left earth and took His body with Him, are kinda' screwed, huh?

Literalism.

"Unglaublich." (Sometimes German is just better for expressing incredulity.)

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow, one in every crowd eh...

At least one. And if I move real fast, I can make it seem like two everywhere I go. :D

Sorry, I haven't been in this thread that long and it's already "jumped the shark" for me. Unabashed literalism tends to affect me this way.

 

[felix]

Ah. So that whole "eat my flesh, drink my blood" thing means those who cannot do this since, you know, He left earth and took His body with Him, are kinda' screwed, huh?

Literalism.

"Unglaublich." (Sometimes German is just better for expressing incredulity.)

When Christ said eat my flesh and drink my blood, he defined what each meant by specifying "wine" saying "this is my blood of new covenant" and specifying the "bread" as his flesh.

This is not the case here.

 

[Pizzaguy]

It is better to inherit the kingdom of Heaven by cutting off the flesh that causes you to sin than to have that flesh and keep sinning.

It is odd just what you DO choose to take literally, and what you choose completely ignore.

(Well, if not "ignore", then twist the meaning of to fit your literal bible view.)

 

[felix]

It is odd just what you DO choose to take literally, and what you choose completely ignore.

(Well, if not "ignore", then twist the meaning of to fit your literal bible view.)

Why do you consider me? I did not ignore it. It is the rest of the world that is ignoring.
And of course.. everyone who wants a convenient easy going gospel, change what Christ said to fit their theory, rather than accepting the simple truth in what Christ said.

 

[Elijah674]

The eternal covenant is between God and His people NOT His angels.

______
Elijah here:
That is flawed theology. The universe along with other worlds (plural) were created by Christ/God. (surely in UNITY of ALL!) And ETERNAL COVENANT means only mankind? Hardly, the ones of Rev. 17:1-5 I suspect mostly teach that? Yet ETERNAL means that the WORD OF GOD is not believed by you??? (that is a question? Rev. 22:18-19)
______


(Jude 1:6) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

_____
Me again:
I doubt that you have this correct either? Jer. 4:22-27 give help for 'us foolish' ones! (along with Jude 1:6 + 2 Peter 2:4) There is a 1000 years between the first resurrection of the saved & the second death resurrection of the wicked, when they all.. including satan, will be blotted out of eternity! (but you don' think that eternity means eternity it seems!)
_____


True.. except they don't know what it meant esp. what "death" or "to die" means.

_____

We get tired! I don't know what time you have there? But surely you must BELIEVE that all of the stuff that satan is behind, that he knows what is taking PLACE from his creation even in heaven on, he was the covering cherub over the Mercy Seat & KNEW WHAT WAS INSIDE THE ARK WAS ETERNAL UNIVERSAL LAW, and Cain satans first TOTAL HOLY SPIRIT REJECTED CONVERT?? What COMMANDMENT did he presumptously break? (1 John 3:4) And then he became a KILLER for satan who you say satan did not understand what death was all about? and does not understand????

WHEW!! 'i' think that I will back on out of here for a while. But hey, be sure to know, I do really like my Lord's human creation, but some (most) of their teachings are way off the Truth. There are many seemingly good Baptists, (daughters) but their teachings are as bad as their mother as seen in Rev. 17:1-5!

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...Jesus is speaking of those who voluntarily live the life of a eunuch... one who sets aside all normal human pursuits in order to devote themselves to the work of the kingdom of God.

...Those normal human pursuits being 'divorce' for the one trapped in the difficulty of a bad relationship, and 'marriage' for the one who wants to be married...the setting aside itself being the kingdom matter that they have devoted themselves to (does that make sense?).

But it certainly doesn't exclude foregoing the privileges of marriage in order to devote oneself to literal kingdom work and ministry. Both, staying in a bad marriage, and not being married, and becoming celibate are godly decisions that should be made for righteousness sake. Divorce/ remarriage was never the intent. I think that's what the point is of the passage.

"For the sake of the kingdom"...it's what keeps me from resorting to 'normal' human behavior concerning marriage and divorce. It is for that reason I have chosen the fate of a eunuch instead of the pleasures of the world. That decision itself being the kingdom matter that I want to serve.

 

[handy]

...Those normal human pursuits being 'divorce' for the one trapped in the difficulty of a bad relationship, and 'marriage' for the one who wants to be married...the setting aside itself being the kingdom matter that they have devoted themselves to (does that make sense?).

But it certainly doesn't exclude foregoing the privileges of marriage in order to devote oneself to literal kingdom work and ministry. Both, staying in a bad marriage, and not being married, and becoming celibate are godly decisions that should be made for righteousness sake. Divorce/ remarriage was never the intent. I think that's what the point is of the passage.

"For the sake of the kingdom"...it's what keeps me from resorting to 'normal' human behavior concerning marriage and divorce. It is for that reason I have chosen the fate of a eunuch instead of the pleasures of the world. That decision itself being the kingdom matter that I want to serve.

I agree, Jethro, this is exactly what our Lord was getting at... And, it's a timely message for our world today in which divorce is so rampant, and for the thinnest of reasons.

Most Christians would say that living with a spouse who refuses to have sex is grounds for divorce... but, according to this passage, it's not. Is the wife sinning against the husband if she refuses to ever have sex? Yes, but she isn't committing sexual immorality in the sense of what Jesus was speaking of.

This is what Jesus was indeed saying, and the disciples were understanding it...hence "it would be better not to marry then"...

I've said this before, but this is a busy thread so it's no wonder that it's being overlooked...

The word translated as "eunuch" has several definitions and one of the accepted definitions of the word is metaphor for someone who voluntarily remains unmarried or celibate, living as a eunuch even though is not mutilated.

There is no reason at all to believe that Christ was speaking literally here, when the word itself has a metaphorical definition.

Jesus used metaphor quite a few times... once such metaphor was when He referred to His body as the temple which would be destroyed and yet restored in three days.

Felix, I saw that you said that you were always open to correction, I hope this is an instance where you'll stand corrected... we Christians should be very wary of putting added burdens upon others... and stating that Christ is advocating self-mutilation here is about as onnerous a burden I can imagine.