Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[farouk]

I do value being a eunuch much higher. Even in the OT the LORD says,

(Isa 56:4-5) For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

felix:

Sorry, maybe I'm not understanding, but are you a eunuch?

Blessings.

 

[felix]

It does not matter to Felix what the book says... it matters to Felix what he BELIEVES.

I have no idea where this theology comes from. After over 35 years, I just don't know where he is getting this.

Surely, your experience is more than the age of Christ when he started His worldly mission. But how does experience have anything to do with the truth of scripture?

I always welcome fruitful discussions and I am happy to change my perspective if scripture does not say what I am saying.

 

[Pizzaguy]

1) But how does experience have anything to do with the truth of scripture?

2) I always welcome fruitful discussions and I am happy to change my perspective if scripture does not say what I am saying.

1) It's a measure not of ME, but of all those years listening to Pastors and Preachers and Teachers - NEVER have I heard someone say that Adam was an innocent in all of this. He walked with God and even Eve showed signs of understanding, in her words to Satan.

2) It is rare to find someone on the internet who will admit to changing his mind, it's something quite psychological, not sure what it is, I guess it's the same face-to-face in any bar, church or office - no one wants to admit to learning anything because it is an admission that they didn't know it all along!

 

[felix]

felix:

Sorry, maybe I'm not understanding, but are you a eunuch?

Blessings.

No. I have two children and will have more if God gives me.

I was more inspired by what Christ said and studied on the effects and aftermaths of becoming a eunuch. What I found was something disturbing and not recommended.

If the a boy was made eunuch immediately before his puberty, his testosterone supply will stop - so does the required amount of estrogen (yes, a female hormone required for males for other functions esp, growth of bones). This is why, you will find the bones of eunuchs will grow huge making them larger and their voice will be as a little boy. You can refer to Castrato.
If the male after puberty became an eunuch, his testosterone supply will stop. This will essentially stop all sexual temptations. However, testosterone function is not just for sexual purposes. It has several other purposes esp, on intelligence, social behavior, making you active and giving energy to life. I read several testimonies of eunuchs and learnt that literally everyone say, although they don't have any sexual desires anymore, their life seems to be dull with no energy.

Hence, I respect eunuchs for what they are for the sake of kingdom of heaven to be holy to God compared to other males who often fall into temptations.

 

[farouk]

No. I have two children and will have more if God gives me.

I was more inspired by what Christ said and studied on the effects and aftermaths of becoming a eunuch. What I found was something disturbing and not recommended.

If the a boy was made eunuch immediately before his puberty, his testosterone supply will stop - so does the required amount of estrogen (yes, a female hormone required for males for other functions esp, growth of bones). This is why, you will find the bones of eunuchs will grow huge making them larger and their voice will be as a little boy. You can refer to Castrato.
If the male after puberty became an eunuch, his testosterone supply will stop. This will essentially stop all sexual temptations. However, testosterone function is not just for sexual purposes. It has several other purposes esp, on intelligence, social behavior, making you active and giving energy to life. I read several testimonies of eunuchs and learnt that literally everyone say, although they don't have any sexual desires anymore, their life seems to be dull with no energy.

Hence, I respect eunuchs for what they are for the sake of kingdom of heaven to be holy to God compared to other males who often fall into temptations.

F:

Oh I see; thank-you for your explanation.

I must admit that to some extent I had seen the Biblical reference to being eunuch's for the sake of the Kingdom, as being somewhat figurative. For example, a missionary nurse who decides to go to Africa instead of looking for a husband, etc.

I suppose that there are literal eunuchs, and figurative eunuchs.

(I hadn't given much thought to the literal aspect, so thank-you.)

 

[felix]

1) It's a measure not of ME, but of all those years listening to Pastors and Preachers and Teachers - NEVER have I heard someone say that Adam was an innocent in all of this. He walked with God and even Eve showed , in her words to Satan.

2) It is rare to find someone on the internet who will admit to changing his mind, it's something quite psychological, not sure what it is, I guess it's the same face-to-face in any bar, church or office - no one wants to admit to learning anything because it is an admission that they didn't know it all along!

Pizzaguy, what Christ taught in sermon on the mount was also something that was never taught before. "signs of understanding" is different from "being innocent". A 4 year old will understand what you tell him - that does not mean he is not innocent. As I explained in #80,

If any mother tell her innocent little child not to speak with the neighbor for they are bad, this little child if happen to speak to that neighbor, will say to that neighbor itself, that s/he must not talk to them because her mother told that they bad?

This is what I call "innocent"

It is true that most of us accept what Pastors and Preachers and Teachers say in churches and never question most of the time.

 

[felix]

F:

Oh I see; thank-you for your explanation.

I must admit that to some extent I had seen the Biblical reference to being eunuch's for the sake of the Kingdom, as being somewhat figurative. For example, a missionary nurse who decides to go to Africa instead of looking for a husband, etc.

I suppose that there are literal eunuchs, and figurative eunuchs.

(I hadn't given much thought to the literal aspect, so thank-you.)

There are no figurative eunuchs. Christ is saying about literal eunuchs who CANNOT have any form of sexual temptations.

 

[handy]

There are no figurative eunuchs. Christ is saying about literal eunuchs who CANNOT have any form of sexual temptations.

Again, I have to disagree with you, Felix, on several levels.

In truth, even literal eunuchs can be sexually tempted and can and do engage in sexual activity... I'm not going to go into details, anyone doubting me on this can simply google the concept and will see that I'm correct.

Also, there are both literal and figurative eunuchs. The word from which eunuch is translated has both a literal and a metaphorical definition. The metaphorical definition is one who voluntarily exludes himself from marriage and sex for the purpose of serving God. Again, this is something that folks can verify by simply using the many good hebrew and greek lexicons out there.

Now Felix, where I do agree with you is that one who metaphorically "made themselves eunuch for the kingdom of heaven... (and does anyone really think there is ever a call from God for a healthy man to castrate himself in order to serve God?)... this call is far more than just being celibate.

I was celibate for many years, simply because I wasn't married. However, the difference was, I desired to be married and desired to fulfill all roles in marriage once married.

This is different from what Christ was speaking of. Just as He, Himself never purposed to marry, have sex, have a family or live what is considered a "normal" life, but rather devoted His life to serving the Father's will... so might other's be called to do the same.

And no, they don't have to castrate themselves to do this...
There are those who are born with what would be considered a birth defect, causing one to be a eunuch... and, many slaves were made eunuch... but Jesus is speaking of those who voluntarily live the life of a eunuch... one who sets aside all normal human pursuits in order to devote themselves to the work of the kingdom of God.

 

[felix]

In truth, even literal eunuchs can be sexually tempted and can and do engage in sexual activity... I'm not going to go into details, anyone doubting me on this can simply google the concept and will see that I'm correct.

Also, there are both literal and figurative eunuchs. The word from which eunuch is translated has both a literal and a metaphorical definition. The metaphorical definition is one who voluntarily exludes himself from marriage and sex for the purpose of serving God. Again, this is something that folks can verify by simply using the many good hebrew and greek lexicons out there.

No! That's impossible.

Eunuchs do not have testicles and cannot produce testosterone. It is this hormone that gives desires for sex. Lacking this hormone simply means no sexual desire. Their testosterone levels will drop as low as that of a child actually to nil.

A young boy who didn't attain puberty cannot engage in any sexual activity nor will have any interest because they don't have testosterone being pumped into their blood. There is a difference between curiosity to learn/know and actual sexual desire. Most boys before their puberty will be driven by curiosity to learn and know things, and not sexual desire. Sexual desire only comes after puberty.

Eunuchs cannot and will not have any sexual desires. It is the sexual desire that drives us into temptations.

The difference between curiosity and desire is: the difference between a doctor examining a patient's private parts for knowing and learning out of curiosity and a husband looking at those same private parts of his wife out of desire.

(Jas 1:15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[handy]

What can I say, Felix, except to research it a bit more should you desire to know the full truth of the matter. Sexual desire is far more than just hormones and definitely more than just testerone... after all women have sexual desires as well... and while both sexes produce both testerone and estrogene, women aren't driven due to testerone...

 

[felix]

What can I say, Felix, except to research it a bit more should you desire to know the full truth of the matter. Sexual desire is far more than just hormones and definitely more than just testerone... after all women have sexual desires as well... and while both sexes produce both testerone and estrogene, women aren't driven due to testerone...

Very true.. but there cannot be a female eunuch. Sexual desire in females are driven by estrogen and their desire process is very different from that in males.

 

[handy]

Getting back to the question of the OP... Jesus said, "and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to recieve it, let him recieve it." (KJV)

Again, I ask, can one honestly believe that anyone who has the Spirit would feel the need to physically mutalate himself in order to serve the kingdom of heaven?

We know that Jesus isn't speaking of anyone with a birth defect or someone forcibly castrated for He states, "made themselves eunuchs" after mentioning those with bd's and forcibly eunuched.

Not to mention the fact that Jesus encourages this by saying He that is able to recieve it, let him recieve it.

We need to keep in mind the culture that Jesus and the disciples were in... a culture where marriage was very much the norm, usually arranged at an early age and very few never married. It seems more than reasonable that those who did choose to never marry would face societial pressures, possibly even be looked upon as rather weird... Those heeding the call to not marry, but devote themselves entirely to God's service are no doubt encouraged by Christ here... as well as what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:8...

But, seriously, do we need to believe that any man who believes that God is calling him to not marry so that he might devote his entire life to God's kingdom must mutilate himself?

 

[felix]

But, seriously, do we need to believe that any man who believes that God is calling him to not marry so that he might devote his entire life to God's kingdom must mutilate himself?

God's plan for man is always to have a wife, get married and be blessed with children. Forbidding to marry as in 1Tim 4:3 is a doctrine of demons.

(1Cor 7:6) But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
(1Cor 7:26) I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distress -- that [it is] good for a man to remain as he is:

What Paul said in 1 Cor 7 is his own idea not inspired by the Spirit, which we can see in v6. The word in English translated as concession [G4774 συγγνώμη suggnome] is actually pardon, indulgence, self pity, fellow knowledge. My native tongue translates as "idea".
Also, Paul is pointing to some "present distress".

According to Paul's own qualification for bishop/overseer to his letter to Timothy, being "unmarried" disqualifies himself.
If Paul is forbidding others to not marry, then he is preaching doctrine of demons according to his own letter to Timothy.

Hence, what Paul said in 1 Cor 7 is just his own thoughts and idea - not inspired by Spirit. Also, Paul is saying these in reference to some present distress as in 1Cor 7:26.

Having said this, what Jesus is essentially saying is, only the people who "cannot" marry are the only people it is given to be so for the sake of Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Stormcrow]

But, seriously, do we need to believe that any man who believes that God is calling him to not marry so that he might devote his entire life to God's kingdom must mutilate himself?

LOL! This is one of those verses where it pays to read a literal translation!

for there are eunuchs who from the mother's womb were so born; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who kept themselves eunuchs because of the reign of the heavens: he who is able to receive it --let him receive.' Matthew 19:12 (YLT)

See the underscored words in the verse? How does one "keep himself a eunuch" if this verse implies removing the "tenders?" Once gone, that's it: you're a eunuch whether you want to be one or not. That which makes one a eunuch in the "castrati" sense is an event, not a process.

I'll suggest that the word here means "celibate", not "castrated." This meaning is further born out by what the disciples said, prompting His response: "...better not to marry."

It would be a non-sequitur to suggest that Christ responds with "castration" to a statement about marriage.

(Pause for laughter all you married guys.)

With that last line in mind, though, I'll also offer that this might just be a glimpse of a humorous exchange between Christ and the disciples! Look again at what they say:

The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." Matthew 19:10 (NASB)

Put in our modern vernacular, it might read like this:

"Dude! If marriage is like this, you'd be nuts to get married!"

I'll leave you to fill in the rest regarding eunuchs and "acorns." :D

 

[felix]

LOL! This is one of those verses where it pays to read a literal translation!

for there are eunuchs who from the mother's womb were so born; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who kept themselves eunuchs because of the reign of the heavens: he who is able to receive it --let him receive.' Matthew 19:12 (YLT)

See the underscored words in the verse? How does one "keep himself a eunuch" if this verse implies removing the "tenders?" Once gone, that's it: you're a eunuch whether you want to be one or not. That which makes one a eunuch in the "castrati" sense is an event, not a process.

I'll suggest that the word here means "celibate", not "castrated." This meaning is further born out by what the disciples said, prompting His response: "...better not to marry."

It would be a non-sequitur to suggest that Christ responds with "castration" to a statement about marriage.

(Pause for laughter all you married guys.)

With that last line in mind, though, I'll also offer that this might just be a glimpse of a humorous exchange between Christ and the disciples! Look again at what they say:

The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." Matthew 19:10 (NASB)

Put in our modern vernacular, it might read like this:

"Dude! If marriage is like this, you'd be nuts to get married!"

I'll leave you to fill in the rest regarding eunuchs and "acorns." :D

Stormcrow, the conclusion that you had drawn from one literal translation does not match with other literal translations like LITV and Julia E.Smith's literal translations. Even my native tongue translated from hebrew and greek does not say what you say.

Just because you cannot accept does not mean it has to have a different meaning. Neither Jesus nor the authors of gospels were running out of vocabulary to specify the state of being unmarried - which can be referred as [G22 ἄγαμος agamos = unmarried] as [G2135 εὐνοῦχος eunouchos = eunuch].

No where in history, no one had ever called an unmarried or one who had abstained from sex as a eunuch.

 

[Stormcrow]

No where in history, no one had ever called an unmarried or one who had abstained from sex as a eunuch.

So we can put you down in the column as one who believes men literally need to castrate themselves for the sake of service in the kingdom of heaven? :o

 

[felix]

So we can put you down in the column as one who believes men literally need to castrate themselves for the sake of service in the kingdom of heaven? :o

You can include Christ as well in that column. Just to add... this is not a mandatory thing for serving in kingdom of heaven.. but given only to some who 'cannot" marry.

 

[Stormcrow]

Having read your earlier posts, handy, I see you "get it." The "celibacy cannon" should've been aimed at Felix's entrenchment.

Kudos to you for understanding the issue here is one of celibacy, not self-mutilation. :D

I still can't help but feel there was more than a little "playful banter" here between Christ and the disciples in this passage. But that's just me.

 

[Stormcrow]

You can include Christ as well in that column. Just to add... this is not a mandatory thing for serving in kingdom of heaven.. but given only to some who 'cannot" marry.

Well, I guess it should come as no surprise that we're on opposite sides of this argument, too.

So you should cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, and cut off your n*** and then you'll be fit for service in the kingdom of heaven???

But only if you can't get married????

Wow. How many one-eyed, left-handed sopranos you got on your church softball team?

 

[felix]

Well, I guess it should come as no surprise that we're on opposite sides of this argument, too.

So you should cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, and cut off your n*** and then you'll be fit for service in the kingdom of heaven???

But only if you can't get married????

Wow. How many one-eyed, left-handed sopranos you got on your church softball team?

Making fun of scripture verses doesn't change the scripture.