Matthew 19:12 - "Eunuches from the womb"?

[felix]

This is confusing.... you seem to understand that Eve was decieved but not that Adam knowingly disobeyed God.

This is going to sound blunt but I'm really handicapped by my lack of a keyboard.... It matters not ahat you 'believe' about how sin entered into the world... Romans 5 is more than clear that sin and death entered through Adam's sin.

True, but there are certain things that super-seed what God said with what God desires!

(Hos 6:6) For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

As for it being the fruit remember our Lord told us that it's not what enters a man's mouth that defiles... Mark 7:14-23

This was after knowing good and evil, for evil thoughts comes from within. Not before eating the fruit for the heart of man does not have any evil from within to come out.

 

[felix]

Now, if you are saying that the sin that they sinned was not the sin unto death, I would agree with that only because God made a way back . [[Not before He had!]] (from 1 John 5:16)

True. This is also an angle I am trying to explain. If you want your child not to eat poison, will place it in her midst and tell her not to eat? God knows that man will eat one day. It is also God's willingness for man to eat. God's intention to create man as innocent was to make a way for Him to save mankind from the punishment of death and the knowledge of evil.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Who told you age of 17 is still a child? Well, that's according to culture but not according to scripture. Anyone able to discern good and evil is not a child anymore. The closest age to identify this is when the child attains puberty (pref, the age of 12 taking Jesus as example who was able to question the teachers of the temple). The actual age could vary from child to child.

So, at 17 I was no longer like a child - but ADAM was like a child?

You haven't really thought this thru, have you? :D

 

[cgl1023]

I recently came across these verses, and was puzzled. I have never heard of anyone being born without a sexual nature. Maybe someone can explain or comprehend what is being said here. :laughing:

After years of hearing these words, it finally dawned on me what fornication is. Fornicaion is not sex outside of marriage as some would think. If that was the case then the woman would be committing adultery. Fornication is the worshipping of others gods. A man can only put away (divorce) his wife if she worships other gods. The punishment for adultery was death, not divorce!


Here's another interesting point!
I honestly don't believe any red blooded man would make such a statement, but the saga continues!


ANYONE?

I have understood this passage(Matthew 19:12) to mean that some males are born with no ability to procreate. To me, the verse speaks of physical inability that began at birth.
I don't understand the verse the to speak of one's sexual nature.


eunuch (n) - Bing Dictionary
eu·nuch
[ ynək ]
castrated human male: a man or boy whose testicles have been removed or do not function.
ineffectual man: a man who is regarded as lacking power or effectiveness.

 

[felix]

So, at 17 I was no longer like a child - but ADAM was like a child?

You haven't really thought this thru, have you? :D

Who told Adam was a child? What you are asking is like: How can Adam be not know good and evil as a grown up man? Does that mean we don't know good and evil?

if you don't like to take "child" as an example, i am still fine with that.. as long as you can imagine any innocent adult without the ability to discern good and evil.

 

[Elijah674]

Who told Adam was a child? What you are asking is like: How can Adam be not know good and evil as a grown up man? Does that mean we don't know good and evil?

if you don't like to take "child" as an example, i am still fine with that.. as long as you can imagine any innocent adult without the ability to discern good and evil.

OK! Love'ya, but... Adam + Eve were created on the sixth day of creation we agree 'i' think? OK: The next day was the 7th Day Sabbath of God. Ask yourself what their first Sabbath Sermon was about?? (remember now that they & were created with a 'brain in Their Image'.. NO sarcasm intended!)

These young'ins were as we are in Rom. 8:1. Perfect with NO Condemnation! OK so far?
Now we find Rom. 8:14 of BEING LED! What is our free will to do or not to do? So as was Adam + us, we are without condemnation but are INMATURE BABIES in MATURITY! That is what the tree in the midst of the garden was all about! Testing Obedience to FULL MATURITY! Nah. 1:9 (I think... getting tired!)

OK: Back to Adam +, does God give Adam & Eve a LOVING WARNING that to dis/obey means death? (+ us?) And in this case it meant ETERNAL DEATH for the Plan of Salvation was not offered yet! (Think!)

Gen. 3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now I know that most teach in bottom/line that God was the one who lied & that satan told the truth, but that is another subject. But if the plan of salvation had not of been offered.. and I say offered, because the Plan is ON CONDITION OF WORKING OBEDIENCE, then Adam + Eve would have died without having the REQUIRED re/Born Again life taught by Christ Himself in John 3:3-8. And remember that the Tree of Life is what had them be immortal... conditional immortality!

---Elijah

 

[handy]

OK, I realized that my keyboard has a usb connection and the wii has usb drives... and voila... I have a keyboard now. Still a little cumbersome, but better than playing hunt and pick with the wii remote....

Felix, first you say that Adam didn't sin, now you acknowledge that he did, but sinned in a state of innocense rather than from evil intent... Which I can agree with. The Bible is quite clear... Romans 5 states explicity that it was through Adam's sin that death entered into this world, not the fruit, not Satan, not Eve... but Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14a Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reighned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one, the many died...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Felix,

Adam most certainly did know good from evil. The commandment ('don't eat') brought that knowledge to him. That's what law does:

"I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For (example) I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.†8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Romans 7:7-11 NIV)

 

[handy]

precepts,

Reading the OP again, I see that it is fornication that you're equating with idolary, not adultery... I'll blame my confusion on the crazy set up I'm working with here.

Nonetheless, your confusion is most likely due to the fact that you're trying to make the passage say something that it's not... namely that fornication is idolatry... This passage is fairly straightforward...

Some Pharisees were trying to trip Jesus up so they asked Him if a man could divorce his wife for any reason.

Jesus' response makes it clear that He is not subtly speaking of idolatry here... He clearly points out the fact that God created male and female and the male is to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two are therefore one flesh.

The Pharisees then ask why Moses said it was OK to give a wife a certificate of divorce and Jesus promptly answers that it was due to the hardness of men's hearts... there is no just cause for divorce except adultery, meaning sexual immorality, not idolatry.

Because men were just as sinful then as they are now, there were many reasons why a man would divorce a wife... so many that even the disciples were troubled by this saying that if this is the case, then perhaps it's better to not marry.

Meaning... the disciples were concerned about being stuck with a bad wife... but one who didn't commit adultery.

I'm sure that there are some right her on this board who can testify about what it's like to stay in a marriage with a partner who has never committed adultery, but yet... refuses sex, is emotionally distant, is quarrelsome... nagging... verbally abusive...

According to our Lord, none of these issues... as bad as they are... constitues a godly reason for divorce.

Idolatry really doesn't factor into any of this.

 

[handy]

Regarding verse 12, "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.

This is pretty straightforward as well. Yes indeed, there are some who are born basically asexual... it happens. But, Jesus was of sound body, so He would be our first example of one who made Himself "eunuch" (ie remaining celibate for life) for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.... Paul would be another example. And, although I disagree with the RCC's stand on priests remaining unmarried, any priest who chooses this calling is doing the same thing.

...the same can be said of anyone stuck in a loveless marriage where the spouse remains physcially faithful, but refuses sex...if the husband/wife in this situation remains in the marriage for the sake of remaining true to the Kingdom of Heaven... it fits.
Really, unless one can bring forth some solid Scriptural evidence to think otherwise, this is the most accurate understanding of this passage.

 

[felix]

Felix, first you say that Adam didn't sin, now you acknowledge that he did, but sinned in a state of innocense rather than from evil intent... Which I can agree with. The Bible is quite clear... Romans 5 states explicity that it was through Adam's sin that death entered into this world, not the fruit, not Satan, not Eve... but Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14a Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reighned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one, the many died...

handy, I believe there are two things getting mixed into one event but both are true.

• God's punishment which was already told to Adam and Eve about death if they eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
• The knowledge of evil through the fruit which gives the ability for mankind to do evil.

(Jas 1:15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

This "desire" that comes from within our heart is because of the knowledge of evil - which is exactly same as when Christ said in Matt 15:18-19 which comes from out heart. This "knowledge of evil" is from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil which brings desire from within - which brings forth sin.
What you say is also true that it is Adam's disobedience is infact eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
What i am trying to say is, God will not punish us for Adam's transgression but our own which we are responsible. Our sins are because of our own desires which is from this knowledge of evil - from the fruit - the way through which sin entered the world.

 

[felix]

But, Jesus was of sound body, so He would be our first example of one who made Himself "eunuch" (ie remaining celibate for life) for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven....

I disagree!

(Lev 21:16-24) And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to Aaron, saying: 'No man of your descendants in [succeeding] generations, who has [any] defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God. 'For any man who has a defect shall not approach: a man blind or lame, who has a marred [face] or any [limb] too long, a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or [a man] who has a defect in his eye, or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch. No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect, shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the LORD. He has a defect; he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God. He may eat the bread of his God, [both] the most holy and the holy; only he shall not go near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a defect, lest he profane My sanctuaries; for I the LORD sanctify them.' And Moses told [it] to Aaron and his sons, and to all the children of Israel.

As the verses in Leviticus says, being eunuch is a defect.

(Lev 22:20) 'Whatever has a defect, you shall not offer, for it shall not be acceptable on your behalf.


If Jesus is an eunuch, then he certainly has a defect and cannot be offered as a "perfect" sacrifice for God.

He cannot be also a priest to go near the veil or approach the altar. Hence, our Messiah being an eunuch is not biblical.

 

[felix]

Felix,

Adam most certainly did know good from evil.

So, why is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil even required?

 

[Elijah674]

So, why is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil even required?

Mankind (all of the Godheads 'brained' creation) needed to do the same as us!;)
From Rom. 8:1's PERFECTION, yet inmature, God REQUIRES us to MATURE! (Heb. 5-Heb. 6) And the forbidden tree was for that purpose! See Nah. 1:9

Surely in their perfection creation, all was perfect, (except the full Maturity!) they had NO PREPENSITY to sin. And that is not the case with us in our 'still' carnal body. And do remember the wedding Garment required us. They also lost the Rightousness of Christ & needed to be REBORN as do we. (that was their NAKEDNESS)

--Elijah

 

[Pizzaguy]

So, why is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil even required?

You rely on your intellect too much, read the word and attempt to feel the heart of God instead.

(Advice given me over 25 years ago by Pastor John Lilly of Countryside Bible Church. I think you might profit from it as well.)

 

[felix]

You rely on your intellect too much, read the word and attempt to feel the heart of God instead.

(Advice given me over 25 years ago by Pastor John Lilly of Countryside Bible Church. I think you might profit from it as well.)

I don't rely on my intellect. It is the scripture what truly teaches we fail to understand and just overlook many things.

My mother used to say that you will never know what hunger is unless you are really starving. To study fully, you need to become one of the subject rather than being an audience. As the dialog in Matrix, there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

To fully understand the story in the garden of Eden , you need to take roles of each one - Adam, Eve, God and even Satan - understand why they are doing those things and for what reason. This will let you atleast get the tip of the iceberg in a path to fully understand the story. Try this and at the end of the study, you will have tons of unanswered questions which will make you dig further to the truth.

 

[felix]

Mankind (all of the Godheads 'brained' creation) needed to do the same as us!;)
From Rom. 8:1's PERFECTION, yet inmature, God REQUIRES us to MATURE! (Heb. 5-Heb. 6) And the forbidden tree was for that purpose! See Nah. 1:9

Surely in their perfection creation, all was perfect, (except the full Maturity!) they had NO PREPENSITY to sin. And that is not the case with us in our 'still' carnal body. And do remember the wedding Garment required us. They also lost the Rightousness of Christ & needed to be REBORN as do we. (that was their NAKEDNESS)

--Elijah

The maturity spoken in Hebrews is about discerning good and evil. It is not addressed to someone like Adam before his fall, who cannot discern good from evil.

 

[handy]

I disagree!

(Lev 21:16-24) And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to Aaron, saying: 'No man of your descendants in [succeeding] generations, who has [any] defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God. 'For any man who has a defect shall not approach: a man blind or lame, who has a marred [face] or any [limb] too long, a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or [a man] who has a defect in his eye, or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch. No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect, shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the LORD. He has a defect; he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God. He may eat the bread of his God, [both] the most holy and the holy; only he shall not go near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a defect, lest he profane My sanctuaries; for I the LORD sanctify them.' And Moses told [it] to Aaron and his sons, and to all the children of Israel.

As the verses in Leviticus says, being eunuch is a defect.

(Lev 22:20) 'Whatever has a defect, you shall not offer, for it shall not be acceptable on your behalf.


If Jesus is an eunuch, then he certainly has a defect and cannot be offered as a "perfect" sacrifice for God.

He cannot be also a priest to go near the veil or approach the altar. Hence, our Messiah being an eunuch is not biblical.

For goodness sakes, Felix, I never said that Jesus multalated Himself... of course He didn't...

Jesus often uses symbolism in His teaching and He is doing so here... Some who devote themselves to the work of the kingdom will be called to live as a eunuch...celibate, not experiencing sex...
As Jesus remained unmarried and devoted His life to the Father's will for Him... He obviously remained celibate all His days, living as a eunuch for the Lord.

 

[handy]

handy, I believe there are two things getting mixed into one event but both are true.

• God's punishment which was already told to Adam and Eve about death if they eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
• The knowledge of evil through the fruit which gives the ability for mankind to do evil.

(Jas 1:15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

This "desire" that comes from within our heart is because of the knowledge of evil - which is exactly same as when Christ said in Matt 15:18-19 which comes from out heart. This "knowledge of evil" is from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil which brings desire from within - which brings forth sin.
What you say is also true that it is Adam's disobedience is infact eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
What i am trying to say is, God will not punish us for Adam's transgression but our own which we are responsible. Our sins are because of our own desires which is from this knowledge of evil - from the fruit - the way through which sin entered the world.

I'm understanding your point, but still disagree that it was the fruit and not Adam's deliberate disobedience that brought sin into this world. Mainly because the Scripture tells us point blank that it was through one man, Adam, that sin entered the world.... there is just no getting around that.

In verse 13 of Romans 5 it states that where there is no law sin is not imputed, but nonetheless death will reign... Later, 7:9 states, 'I was once alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.'

This is one of the most solid texts for the 'age of accountability'... a baby and young child has no knowledge of good and evil... even a little one who reaches when told no does not understand he is violating God's law that children must obey parents. Although subject to physical death, this innocent remains spiritually alive because he cannot understand the law... and where there is no law, there is no violation.

But, sooner or later, every child comes to understand that they are to obey their parents. On that day, the day understanding enters the picture, any further disobedience will result in spiritual death.

Eve did not fully uderstand the commandment given, she very well may not have even understood the nature of the tree. When the serpent approaches, she doesn't refer to the tree as 'the knowledge of good and evil' and she isn't clear on God's command. Given her ignorance, the serpent easily decieves her.

Adam however was not decieved. God told him the nature of the tree and told him not to eat of it. He did so anyway... and brought sin into the world and brought spiritual death upon himself as well.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I don't rely on my intellect. It is the scripture what truly teaches we fail to understand and just overlook many things.

My mother used to say that you will never know what hunger is unless you are really starving. To study fully, you need to become one of the subject rather than being an audience. As the dialog in Matrix, there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

To fully understand the story in the garden of Eden , you need to take roles of each one - Adam, Eve, God and even Satan - understand why they are doing those things and for what reason. This will let you atleast get the tip of the iceberg in a path to fully understand the story. Try this and at the end of the study, you will have tons of unanswered questions which will make you dig further to the truth.

Sounds like intellect to me.

No one, until now, has told me to "take the role of Satan" in order to understand and/or know God.

And you are quoting lines from a MOVIE now? YOU? I like how Elijah gets all of his stuff from scripture, he seems to have no need for movie lines. Perhaps his posts are hard to read - I wonder if the rest of us had his time in the word - would his posts be so hard to read then?

But again, I find it absolutely laughable that you tell me that Adam, WHO WALKED WITH GOD in the garden did not understand and could not be held accountable for his actions. Yet I, at age 17, raised in a Godless home, is expected to understand and be accountable for my actions. Felix, THAT is twisted theology wrapped in your intellectual attempts to make scripture say what you actually DO believe it says.

You are no liar, that is for sure, you really believe this stuff.
So be it, it is between you and God - or it would be, if you weren't trying to teach it here.