Misnomer of Faith without works

[RBDERRICK]

When James is condemning faith without works, he does so in light of examples of not doing good works.

Therefore, the context is a rebuke against claiming to have faith without doing good works. It's not teaching about a faith without doing any works at all.

It is not about a faith that does nothing at all, neither good nor evil, which is the misnomer because that is not possible.

According to the Bible, by not doing good we are doing evil. Which James concludes about faith without works. (James 4:17)

The condemnation is against faith that is only alone by not doing good. It is not speaking of a faith alone that is doing nothing, because that is judged as sinning against the brother or sister in need.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God only judges works; therefore being without good works, is a work of sin, because God judges it as sinning.

Therefore, the error of teaching a salvation by faith without works, is twofold: First it is unbelief in the Bible teaching that such faith is dead, and can save no man. And then it is unbelief in the Bible doctrine, that doing nothing is a work sin.

The doctrine of faith without works rests on the illusion that faith can stand alone, as some say "all by itself", without doing either good or evil. The doctrine teaches man can be doing nothing evil, while doing nothing good. According to the Bible, being 'without works' is a sin, and is impossible to have.

The doctrine of the Bible is that neither man nor faith can ever be without works of good or evil, so that God cannot judge our works at that time.

The only time a man or woman is doing nothing, without works to be judged by God, is in death.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

While living in the body, there is no such thing as faith without works of any sort, because that would be as the body living without the spirit.

If we're not doing God, God judges us as doing evil. Therefore, teaching having faith without doing good, is teaching having a faith with doing evil.

That is a faith of man's teaching, not of God in the Bible.

 

[RBDERRICK]

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith without works is dead, because it is faith without the spirit. Even as the body is moved by the spirit, so faith moves the spirit, to do good works with the body.

Faith without good works is therefore faith without the Spirit of Christ in our spirit.

It claims to have the Spirit alone by faith alone, without doing the works of Christ.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus Christ is never without doing His works pleasing to God, first as a man on earth, and now in any man on earth.

Separating faith from good works teaches separating the Spirit from Christ, by separating Christ from doing works to please the Father. This is how some teach separating Christ from His character in the believer without good works.

Faith alone is the doctrine of helping someone in spirit only, without doing anything for the body.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When James is condemning faith without works, he does so in light of examples of not doing good works.

Therefore, the context is a rebuke against claiming to have faith without doing good works. It's not teaching about a faith without doing any works at all.

It is not about a faith that does nothing at all, neither good nor evil, which is the misnomer because that is not possible.

According to the Bible, by not doing good we are doing evil. Which James concludes about faith without works. (James 4:17)

The condemnation is against faith that is only alone by not doing good. It is not speaking of a faith alone that is doing nothing, because that is judged as sinning against the brother or sister in need.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God only judges works; therefore being without good works, is a work of sin, because God judges it as sinning.

Therefore, the error of teaching a salvation by faith without works, is twofold: First it is unbelief in the Bible teaching that such faith is dead, and can save no man. And then it is unbelief in the Bible doctrine, that doing nothing is a work sin.

The doctrine of faith without works rests on the illusion that faith can stand alone, as some say "all by itself", without doing either good or evil. The doctrine teaches man can be doing nothing evil, while doing nothing good. According to the Bible, being 'without works' is a sin, and is impossible to have.

The doctrine of the Bible is that neither man nor faith can ever be without works of good or evil, so that God cannot judge our works at that time.

The only time a man or woman is doing nothing, without works to be judged by God, is in death.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

While living in the body, there is no such thing as faith without works of any sort, because that would be as the body living without the spirit.

If we're not doing God, God judges us as doing evil. Therefore, teaching having faith without doing good, is teaching having a faith with doing evil.

That is a faith of man's teaching, not of God in the Bible.

I can't see why men don't realize that the only works that are useless are the woks of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I can't see why men don't realize that the only works that are useless are the woks of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.

Because works themselves are anathema to their own faith in their own salvation.

I believe some have sought to do the righteousness of God at all times, but have given up and drawn back.

That is not as bad as then going on to teach it's impossible, just because they failed in the faith of Jesus.

I've been double minded in the faith at times, but I've never justified it by making up a doctrine teaching it as unavoidable for life.

I've always come to Jesus to be forgiven and washed clean again, until I repented once for all of the besetting sin.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Because works themselves are anathema to their own faith in their own salvation.

I believe some have sought to do the righteousness of God at all times, but have given up and drawn back.

That is not as bad as then going on to teach it's impossible, just because they failed in the faith of Jesus.

I've been double minded in the faith at times, but I've never justified it by making up a doctrine teaching it as unavoidable for life.

I've always come to Jesus to be forgiven and washed clean again, until I repented once for all of the besetting sin.

These are the works that Paul condemns when coming to God by faith:

1. Works of the law of Moses to be justified by. Judaism.

2. Works of the law of Moses or Christ without faith in Jesus. Law-abiding sinners. It makes for a good life here only.

3. Works of our own righteousness and will. Our own morality called filthy rags by God.

4. Works of our past whether good or evil. Nothing we have done before believing Jesus, makes us any more worthy to be saved than anyone else.

The Bible never condemns the works of God's righteousness done from the heart, which are the works commended in James.

And the only place the Bible ever speaks of faith without those works, is that it is dead without honor and justification from God.

Teaching faith without works is simply another gospel, that does not believe the Bible saying that any such faith is dead.

 

[Elteqay]

I can't see why men don't realize that the only works that are useless are the woks of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.

That is exactly is what good works are !
Circumcion of the heart has always been what Yah has wanted from His people.
Yah has never changed what He Calls Food. They do not know clean from unclean.
The Feast are Yahuah's Set Apart Appointments for His people to met with Him, the Spring Feast have been fulfilled, Messiah Yahusha has yet to fulfill the Fall Feast which are looked at as Wedding Feast.

Guard the Shabbat and keep it Holy is the 4th Commandment, which 95% of the church breaks every week.

Yashar'el and Yahudah broke the very things you mentioned and Elohiym punished them for disobedience, the church comes along and teaches the very thing the Tribe's were scattered for, yet they think they will be rewarded for doing the same....the church better rethink that nonsense !

Or, Yahusha Ha' Masheiac will read you Matthew 7:21-23. Depart from Me you Anomia....you lawless/ you Torahless people. Look it up before y'all cry and say that's not what it means....that's exactly what means.

 

[Free]

Therefore, the error of teaching a salvation by faith without works, is twofold: First it is unbelief in the Bible teaching that such faith is dead, and can save no man. And then it is unbelief in the Bible doctrine, that doing nothing is a work sin.

The doctrine of faith without works rests on the illusion that faith can stand alone, as some say "all by itself", without doing either good or evil. The doctrine teaches man can be doing nothing evil, while doing nothing good. According to the Bible, being 'without works' is a sin, and is impossible to have.

The doctrine of the Bible is that neither man nor faith can ever be without works of good or evil, so that God cannot judge our works at that time.

The only time a man or woman is doing nothing, without works to be judged by God, is in death.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

While living in the body, there is no such thing as faith without works of any sort, because that would be as the body living without the spirit.

If we're not doing God, God judges us as doing evil. Therefore, teaching having faith without doing good, is teaching having a faith with doing evil.

That is a faith of man's teaching, not of God in the Bible.

As I stated on a previous thread, you first need to define what you mean by salvation, since it is spoken of with three different, sequential terms. Also, it’s “by grace” through faith:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Notice that we are justified by grace through faith, not works, but that works come after we are justified as evidence of our faith.

 

[Elteqay]

As I stated on a previous thread, you first need to define what you mean by salvation, since it is spoken of with three different, sequential terms. Also, it’s “by grace” through faith:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Notice that we are justified by grace through faith, not works, but that works come after we are justified as evidence of our faith.

Ahmein!

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is exactly is what good works are !

Not exactly.
Those were some of the works mandated by Moses for salvation in the OT.
"Good works", like helping the hungry, are the result of conversion, belief, and/or rebirth from God's seed.

Circumcion of the heart has always been what Yah has wanted from His people.

But it isn't a physical circumcision in the NT.

Yah has never changed what He Calls Food. They do not know clean from unclean.

All foods are clean in the NT.

The Feast are Yahuah's Set Apart Appointments for His people to met with Him, the Spring Feast have been fulfilled, Messiah Yahusha has yet to fulfill the Fall Feast which are looked at as Wedding Feast.
Guard the Shabbat and keep it Holy is the 4th Commandment, which 95% of the church breaks every week.
Yashar'el and Yahudah broke the very things you mentioned and Elohiym punished them for disobedience, the church comes along and teaches the very thing the Tribe's were scattered for, yet they think they will be rewarded for doing the same....the church better rethink that nonsense !
Or, Yahusha Ha' Masheiac will read you Matthew 7:21-23. Depart from Me you Anomia....you lawless/ you Torahless people. Look it up before y'all cry and say that's not what it means....that's exactly what means.

Are you an OT Jewish person?

 

[Elteqay]

Not exactly.
Those were some of the works mandated by Moses for salvation in the OT.
"Good works", like helping the hungry, are the result of conversion, belief, and/or rebirth from God's seed.

But it isn't a physical circumcision in the NT.

All foods are clean in the NT.

Are you an OT Jewish person?

Salvation has always been belief in Messiah, both Older and Renewed Covenant.

No where in the Renewed Covenant Scripture has Yah changed the dietary law. What Yah declared food is food. Not what MAN declares as food.

Helping the hungry is a good thing, that's why farmers in the Older Covenant couldn't harvest the corners of their fields or glean all of the grapes or olives.

Paul certainly physically circumcised Timothy....but as I said, circumcision has always been the heart.

I am Torah Observant, meaning: I hear, learn, guard, and do the 7th Day Sabbath, the Set Apart Feast of Yah, eat what My Yahuah Elohayka calls food, and love my neighbor as myself.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I always consider the person has no answer to a challenging argument, when they don't address it, but just talk around it, or try to move on to something else.

If you'd like to wait until you do have an answer to any point of my argument, then I'd like to see it. I don't count myself flawless, just disciplined.

As I stated on a previous thread, you first need to define what you mean by salvation, since it is spoken of with three different, sequential terms.

This tries to move from the argument, without addressing any point in it. While I agree with this teaching of sequential salvation, it has nothing to do with being saved and justified in this life, by any faith without works.

The Bible clearly says there is no faith without, before, and apart from works, that can save any one.

Teaching such a faith 'standing all by itself alone' is not the faith taught by the Bible. I agree there are Christians who do teach such a faith and hold to it for salvation, but it's just not the faith of the Bible.

Also, it’s “by grace” through faith:

True. That is what the Bible says.

Notice that we are justified by grace through faith, not works,

That is not what the Bible says. You add 'not works' to the verse.

but that works come after we are justified as evidence of our faith.

Also not what the Bible says. Works 'come after' and 'As evidence of our faith', is added by you again.

The Bible says by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is no teaching in the Bible, where faith is before works, or works coming after faith. The only place such a faith is mentioned in the Bible, is to call it dead, being alone, and cannot save nor justify any one.

Bible faith of Jesus is never being alone, but is always with His works to please the Father.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The ones with faith alone is left alone by the Father, because they are not at that time doing those things that please Him.

This is the doctrine of faith and Christ, that is known by the words of the Bible, without subtracting nor adding our own words to them.

 

[Free]

I always consider the person has no answer to a challenging argument, when they don't address it, but just talk around it, or try to move on to something else.

If you'd like to wait until you do have an answer to any point of my argument, then I'd like to see it. I don't count myself flawless, just disciplined.

This tries to move from the argument, without addressing any point in it. While I agree with this teaching of sequential salvation, it has nothing to do with being saved and justified in this life, by any faith without works.

On the contrary, my points get to the core of the issue, which I believe show the flaw in your argument. The three terms used of salvation in the Bible have everything to do with "being saved and justified in this life, by faith without works." Notice that you used "being saved and justified"--that is to obfuscate the issue, which is rather my point.

The Bible clearly says there is no faith without, before, and apart from works, that can save any one.

Where does it clearly say all of those things?

Teaching such a faith 'standing all by itself alone' is not the faith taught by the Bible. I agree there are Christians who do teach such a faith and hold to it for salvation, but it's just not the faith of the Bible.




That is not what the Bible says. You add 'not works' to the verse.

Not at all. Look at verse 9:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

First, notice that importance of verses 5 and 6--"even when we were dead in our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ," which was by grace, and then raised us to sit "with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." That entire process was entirely by grace and zero works. Second, notice in verse 9 the repetition of salvation "by grace," but more than that, it "is not [a believer's] own doing; it is the gift of God." Verse 10 makes it even stronger by stating that this gift of God through grace is "not a result of works." Why? "So that no one may boast." Note that the good works come afterwards, "prepared beforehand" by God, which essentially agrees with James--works are evidence of justification, they don't justify us. That is all very straightforward.

If salvation, or properly here, justification, is by works, then we could boast; it would not be a gift of God but rather it would be our own doing. But that goes against everything said in this passage.

Also not what the Bible says. Works 'come after' and 'As evidence of our faith', is added by you again.

Not at all. It is a logical reading of verse 10 within the context of the passage.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Were you "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" prior to salvation (justification)? Of course not. That verse is repeating what was said in verses 5 and 6--while "we were dead in our trespasses" God "made us alive together with Christ ... and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." And that is explained by the phrase "by grace you have been saved," at the end of verse 5.

So, our being "created in Christ Jesus for good works" points to our already having been saved (justified) with good works as the evidence of it, which is in full agreement with James 2:14-18.

The Bible says by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

However:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

What James says at first glance appears to contradict what Paul says. But is that the case? To be "justified" is to be declared righteous. However, both Paul and James show that Abraham believed first the promise of God, which "was counted to him as righteousness, and then acted on that faith by doing the "work" of setting up the altar and all but actually sacrificing Isaac.

So, what is James saying? He cannot be saying that works justify a person before God along with faith, or that would contradict what he had just said--"Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." And, as far as I can tell, it would also be the only passage in the NT where a person is said to be justified before God by works. What James is saying then in 2:24-26, is exactly what he says in 2:18, namely, that faith which shows no evidence through works is not actual faith at all.

Also:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

(All ESV.)

Notice that all of this is what Paul is talking about in Eph 2.

There is no teaching in the Bible, where faith is before works, or works coming after faith.

It is the only teaching in the Bible.

The only place such a faith is mentioned in the Bible, is to call it dead, being alone, and cannot save nor justify any one.

I've given several passages which say otherwise.

 

[RBDERRICK]

As I stated on a previous thread, you first need to define what you mean by salvation, since it is spoken of with three different, sequential terms. Also, it’s “by grace” through faith:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Notice that we are justified by grace through faith, not works, but that works come after we are justified as evidence of our faith.

Now I will share with you, what I have with others, in order to clear up the difference between the faith of the Bible, that is always with works, and never alone. Vs. the teaching of a faith, that is alone without works.

First: What the Bible is teaching to all men, is that any faith that is without works is dead to God, and can save no one. Biblically, It is impossible to have faith toward God that is ever without works.

But the Bible also teaches exactly how and why that is. The Bible teaches that the works of man do not begin with the body, but with our spirit. Faith without works teaches works can only come after faith. It teaches inward faith only with works coming later.

The natural man doesn't acknowledge either spirit nor faith, while the natural man's theology teaches there is inner faith, but works are only with the body. The natural man only believes what he can see with natural eyes. Natural theology is doing the same thing pertaining to works.

Jesus teaches otherwise by cleansing within the platter, and commanding us to do first works of faith in Rev 2.

The first cleansing works we do by faith in Jesus, are within our heart and spirit, before any such works are manifest bodily. There is no separation in Christ between His faith and works. The only separation in Christ is between our first works inwardly followed by works outwardly.

In Christ Jesus, works do not follow faith, but outward works of the flesh do follow inward works of the spirit.

The difference between the Bible teaching on faith and works, and the natural theology of man, is one of a 'temporal timeline' naturally between faith and works. There is no such 'space' allowed by Christ between His faith and works.

The bottom line is that inward thoughts and intents of heart, and imaginations of the mind, are judged as works by God.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The law of Christ is not greater than that of Moses, because we can now sin outwardly without condemnation. But rather because the law of Spirit in Christ Jesus has power given to us to cleanse ourselves inwardly first, that our outward works may indeed be righteous and blameless from a pure heart.

Our part in that continued cleansing from the fiery darts of the devil into our minds, is those first works of faith we are commanded to do, to be justified by Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The Ephesian Christians with many outwardly approved works, were becoming Pharisees by ceasing to do the first works of loving God in the heart: keeping our spirit and soul clean from temptation and lust.

The natural man's theology rejects these first works altogether, and separates all works from inner faith, with a temporal timeline. They do so by defining all works as bodily only. It is the teaching that produces Christian Pharisees at most. Righteous on the outside, while still filthy on the inside, because the first works of our spirit are not being done.

Jesus says we must be more righteous than the Pharisees. Not by producing more and more outward works for show of man. But rather by working within and purging our spirit of all tempting thoughts of the wicked, which only God, the devil, and ourselves can see.

There is no time separation between faith and works in Christ, because so soon as His seed is planted by hearing the word, we must now resist any and all temptation to sin, rather than pursuing it for it's pleasure.

The devil makes sure our faith is first tested to work on our soul's behalf, so soon as planted in our hearts. Because Jesus says he comes immediately to do so. The faith standing all by itself own little lonely, is immediately snatched up by Satan and taken away out of the heart.

Why? Because it's not doing the first works to fight back and resist him till he flees. That is how the children of Abraham in Christ chase away the fouls of the air from our sacrifice for His name's sake.

 

[Free]

Now I will share with you, what I have with others, in order to clear up the difference between the faith of the Bible, that is always with works, and never alone. Vs. the teaching of a faith, that is alone without works.

First: What the Bible is teaching to all men, is that any faith that is without works is dead to God, and can save no one. Biblically, It is impossible to have faith toward God that is ever without works.

But the Bible also teaches exactly how and why that is. The Bible teaches that the works of man do not begin with the body, but with our spirit. Faith without works teaches works can only come after faith. It teaches inward faith only with works coming later.

The natural man doesn't acknowledge either spirit nor faith, while the natural man's theology teaches there is inner faith, but works are only with the body. The natural man only believes what he can see with natural eyes. Natural theology is doing the same thing pertaining to works.

Jesus teaches otherwise by cleansing within the platter, and commanding us to do first works of faith in Rev 2.

The first cleansing works we do by faith in Jesus, are within our heart and spirit, before any such works are manifest bodily. There is no separation in Christ between His faith and works. The only separation in Christ is between our first works inwardly followed by works outwardly.

In Christ Jesus, works do not follow faith, but outward works of the flesh do follow inward works of the spirit.

The difference between the Bible teaching on faith and works, and the natural theology of man, is one of a 'temporal timeline' naturally between faith and works. There is no such 'space' allowed by Christ between His faith and works.

The bottom line is that inward thoughts and intents of heart, and imaginations of the mind, are judged as works by God.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The law of Christ is not greater than that of Moses, because we can now sin outwardly without condemnation. But rather because the law of Spirit in Christ Jesus has power given to us to cleanse ourselves inwardly first, that our outward works may indeed be righteous and blameless from a pure heart.

Our part in that continued cleansing from the fiery darts of the devil into our minds, is those first works of faith we are commanded to do, to be justified by Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The Ephesian Christians with many outwardly approved works, were becoming Pharisees by ceasing to do the first works of loving God in the heart: keeping our spirit and soul clean from temptation and lust.

The natural man's theology rejects these first works altogether, and separates all works from inner faith, with a temporal timeline. They do so by defining all works as bodily only. It is the teaching that produces Christian Pharisees at most. Righteous on the outside, while still filthy on the inside, because the first works of our spirit are not being done.

I don't see how any of this addresses what I said, which was based on several passages. We are justified by grace through faith only and the evidence of our justification is good works. If there is no evidence of good works, then that faith is dead, and there was no justification. To me, that is the clear teaching of the NT.

Jesus says we must be more righteous than the Pharisees. Not by producing more and more outward works for show of man. But rather by working within and purging our spirit of all tempting thoughts of the wicked, which only God, the devil, and ourselves can see.

There is no time separation between faith and works in Christ, because so soon as His seed is planted by hearing the word, we must now resist any and all temptation to sin, rather than pursuing it for it's pleasure.

The devil makes sure our faith is first tested to work on our soul's behalf, so soon as planted in our hearts. Because Jesus says he comes immediately to do so. The faith standing all by itself own little lonely, is immediately snatched up by Satan and taken away out of the heart.

Why? Because it's not doing the first works to fight back and resist him till he flees. That is how the children of Abraham in Christ chase away the fouls of the air from our sacrifice for His name's sake.

And all of this is post-justification; such works don't justify us. You do understand that justification is a one-time event, correct?

 

[Robert Pate]

When James is condemning faith without works, he does so in light of examples of not doing good works.

Therefore, the context is a rebuke against claiming to have faith without doing good works. It's not teaching about a faith without doing any works at all.

It is not about a faith that does nothing at all, neither good nor evil, which is the misnomer because that is not possible.

According to the Bible, by not doing good we are doing evil. Which James concludes about faith without works. (James 4:17)

The condemnation is against faith that is only alone by not doing good. It is not speaking of a faith alone that is doing nothing, because that is judged as sinning against the brother or sister in need.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God only judges works; therefore being without good works, is a work of sin, because God judges it as sinning.

Therefore, the error of teaching a salvation by faith without works, is twofold: First it is unbelief in the Bible teaching that such faith is dead, and can save no man. And then it is unbelief in the Bible doctrine, that doing nothing is a work sin.

The doctrine of faith without works rests on the illusion that faith can stand alone, as some say "all by itself", without doing either good or evil. The doctrine teaches man can be doing nothing evil, while doing nothing good. According to the Bible, being 'without works' is a sin, and is impossible to have.

The doctrine of the Bible is that neither man nor faith can ever be without works of good or evil, so that God cannot judge our works at that time.

The only time a man or woman is doing nothing, without works to be judged by God, is in death.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

While living in the body, there is no such thing as faith without works of any sort, because that would be as the body living without the spirit.

If we're not doing God, God judges us as doing evil. Therefore, teaching having faith without doing good, is teaching having a faith with doing evil.

That is a faith of man's teaching, not of God in the Bible.

I like Ephesians 2:10. "For we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them". Good works are a natural part of the Christians life because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. However, not all that are doing good works are Christians. There are many Christ denying cults that can outshine many Christians.

 

[RBDERRICK]

On the contrary, my points get to the core of the issue, which I believe show the flaw in your argument. The three terms used of salvation in the Bible have everything to do with "being saved and justified in this life, by faith without works." Notice that you used "being saved and justified"--that is to obfuscate the issue, which is rather my point.

Yes, I do translate being, rather than was, or did, with the Greek participle.

All translation is doctrinal, and so I don't bind myself to men's translation, so long as we keep it grammatically accurate.

I love the KJV, but the translation of by grace ye are saved, though grammatically correct, it is not doctrinally exact, and can lead to confusion. By grace we are being saved, is equally correct, but doctrinally more accurate.

We know this by taking all Scripture together, and not just one verse to teach doctrine from.

Many times in Scripture, Jesus and the apostles speak of how we shall be saved, and receiving salvation at the end of this life. These are final irreversible conclusive acts obtained by the resurrection from the dead.

Bible doctrine teaches we are being saved through faith and being justified by works in this life, and that if we endure unto the end, then we shall be finally saved forever by resurrection of the dead.

The teaching of faith without works, so that we are irreversibly saved now forever, no matter how we live unto the end, is an 'imperfect' gospel for sinful double minded Christianity.

Where does it clearly say all of those things?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How many times would you like them repeated?

Faith that has not works, is faith without works. That faith is dead, being alone. Faith without works is dead. A man is not justified by faith only, but by works.

Anyone trying to teach being saved and justified by 'faith without works', is just arguing against the words of the Bible.

I don't argue with them about their gospel of faith alone, I just continue to show how it is not the faith of the Bible.

I find you are a disciplined disputer, and you never get personal with anyone, but so long as anyone brings to be a doctrine and gospel by faith alone without works, I just don't receive it as the faith of Jesus and doctrine of Christ.

I can't, because the Bible says what? That faith having not works is dead, being alone, and faith without works is dead, and no man is justified by it.

Let's do a test. Only quote the Bible, when it says not works, without works, etc... And never insert those words into any verse, that is speaking of faith, and works are not even mentioned.

We can go from there.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes, I do translate being, rather than was, or did, with the Greek participle.

All translation is doctrinal, and so I don't bind myself to men's translation, so long as we keep it grammatically accurate.

I love the KJV, but the translation of by grace ye are saved, though grammatically correct, it is not doctrinally exact, and can lead to confusion. By grace we are being saved, is equally correct, but doctrinally more accurate.

We know this by taking all Scripture together, and not just one verse to teach doctrine from.

Many times in Scripture, Jesus and the apostles speak of how we shall be saved, and receiving salvation at the end of this life. These are final irreversible conclusive acts obtained by the resurrection from the dead.

Bible doctrine teaches we are being saved through faith and being justified by works in this life, and that if we endure unto the end, then we shall be finally saved forever by resurrection of the dead.

The teaching of faith without works, so that we are irreversibly saved now forever, no matter how we live unto the end, is an 'imperfect' gospel for sinful double minded Christianity.



Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How many times would you like them repeated?

Faith that has not works, is faith without works. That faith is dead, being alone. Faith without works is dead. A man is not justified by faith only, but by works.

Anyone trying to teach being saved and justified by 'faith without works', is just arguing against the words of the Bible.

I don't argue with them about their gospel of faith alone, I just continue to show how it is not the faith of the Bible.

I find you are a disciplined disputer, and you never get personal with anyone, but so long as anyone brings to be a doctrine and gospel by faith alone without works, I just don't receive it as the faith of Jesus and doctrine of Christ.

I can't, because the Bible says what? That faith having not works is dead, being alone, and faith without works is dead, and no man is justified by it.

Let's do a test. Only quote the Bible, when it says not works, without works, etc... And never insert those words into any verse, that is speaking of faith, and works are not even mentioned.

We can go from there.

The thief on the cross was justified by faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I like Ephesians 2:10. "For we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them". Good works are a natural part of the Christians life because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. However, not all that are doing good works are Christians. There are many Christ denying cults that can outshine many Christians.

Well, like Pharisees 'outshining' Jesus and His disciples.

There is only one outshining of God on earth: the pure hearted of faith living blameless in the way of the Lord.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

[RBDERRICK]

The thief on the cross was justified by faith alone.

Confession of truth is not faith alone. Confession with the mouth is a work judged by God to save by.

The teaching of faith alone is a dead end with the Bible, since the Bible says faith alone is dead and can save no man.

The problem is not teaching faith without works. The problem is saying the Bible teaches it.

Many books have been disagreed with, even vehemently, but no other book as people trying to rewrite it, and say that's what the author really means.

 

[Robert Pate]

Well, like Pharisees 'outshining' Jesus and His disciples.

There is only one outshining of God on earth: the pure hearted of faith living blameless in the way of the Lord.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

No one is living blameless in the way of the Lord. Paul said, "There is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10.

The Pharisees were law keeping hypocrites, see Matthew the 23rd chapter.

Because Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they are able to live above sin, but that does not save or justify them. Jesus is our justifier, Romans 3:26. We are saved and justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus.