Misnomer of Faith without works

[grace2]

I have talked about nothing in each post but good works as it relates to faith , the subject of the thread.
In particular how can it be established that the basis for person's good works is not a false faith in the true God ?
Good works being performed under the guise of a false faith in the true God certainly falling within the parameters of what qualifies as a " misnomer" .

If you are trying to be spiritual, you ought to know the term "good works".

It has nothing to do with the world's standards.

Jesus says His followers are not of the world.

Get back to Jesus' teachings if you claim to be His follower.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't teach. I just reveal the Truth that you guys have been dismissing.

So far all your claims have been debunked.

You can run but you cannot hide from Jesus' word.

Yeah...

 

[grace2]

Yeah...

do you have anything to say?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Torah according to the Hebrew means instruction, a pointing of the Way to go...salvation has always been by Faith in the coming Redeemer, the promise of the Seed of the woman.

OK, thanks for your POV.

The sacrifices and the oblation came after the nation broke the Covenant and there was no mention of killing animals....obedience to the Voice of Yah has and always will be His protocol.

Which covenant are you referring to?

You never answered my question concerning Paul, lots of christians have problems with Paul because as Kepha said; Paul is hard to understand. When Shaul speaks against the Law we need to know what law he is talking about, is it the Instruction of Yah or is it the Oral Law that man added that is the yoke of burden....did not Yahusha Ha' Masheiac say his burden easy and His yoke light.....considering He was the walking and talking Torah.

I looked back over our posts and couldn't find any question regarding Paul.
Ask again...please,

BTW, I am glad the law of Christ has superseded any past ordinances and traditions.

 

[Consecrated Life]

If you are trying to be spiritual, you ought to know the term "good works".

It has nothing to do with the world's standards.

Jesus says His followers are not of the world.

Get back to Jesus' teachings if you claim to be His follower.

Your most recent assertion that feeding the hungry , clothing the naked, tending to the sick are good works that cannot be performed by those of a false faith in the true God makes no sense in light of the fact that you already admitted that you are capable of spotting these of a false faith ( trinitarians ), who perform these good works that those of a true faith also perform.

I know those who do not worship the true God.

They are triune god worshippers.

 

[eddif]

The Bible teaches by Paul, that before believing Jesus, none of our own old works in life, with or without the law, can save or justify us with Him. James teaches that our new good works of His righteousness keeps us justified with Him.

Ye see then how that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Paul exhorts the same for all believers of Jesus:

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

2 Peter 1 commands us to be diligent about virtuous, godly, and charitable living, in order to ensure we enter into and inherit the kingdom of Christ by resurrection from the dead.

The Bible teaches salvation is not a reward for past works, but inheriting the kingdom by resurrection is indeed the reward for serving God.

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

We can be saved and justified by our own faith alone all we wish in this life, but only serving God in life by the faith of Jesus will resurrect us from the dead unto life.

Man's own faith alone ends in the grave.

I find your post interesting. If nothing else:
In peoples prayers or at a time of your need, others inside or outside can put in a good word for you.

At the gentile inclusion Jews gave Cornelius a good recommendation to Peter.

eddif

 

[eddif]

BTW, I am glad the law of Christ has superseded any past ordinances and traditions.

I would probably use the word fulfilled instead of superseded.

1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I Corinthians 9:9 kjv
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The law IMHO was agreed with. Not apart from.

Jesus came to fulfill the law.
Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I you need it said another way, I can try.

eddif

 

[RBDERRICK]

I have quoted twice exactly where Paul states that we are saved by God's grace and "not because of works."

This is accurate.

That is exactly the same as saying "without works." We are justified by grace through faith and works have no bearing on that.

This is a personal teaching wrested from the verses, and inserted back in. We know this because it is rebuked by the Bible, that says faith without works is dead, being alone, and can save no man.

If we are not justified by works, then we are not saved by grace.

The verses must be taken together as forming the same argument, and that argument very clearly is that we are saved "by grace . . . through faith . . . not a result of works."

True. now you are quoting accurately and in context.

Since you do not believe that faith without works is dead and can save no man, and choose to believe faith without works saves. Then you try to insert your personal belief into the context.

And so you misquote Paul saying we are saved through faith without works, which contradicts James.

When we believe both Paul and James, then we know Paul is only speaking of past works without faith in Jesus.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Your faith without works doctrine, tries to insert itself into the Bible, and tries to say present and future works with Jesus are excluded.

Everything in those two verses supports that idea--"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God;" "so that no one may boast."

Exactly. Not of our own past doing without Jesus.

Paul is absolutely excluding works in justification.

In your book by your Paul, yes. Not in the Bible with Jesus' apostles Paul and James, who do not contradict one another.

In the Bible if works are excluded from justification, then so is grace excluded from salvation, since both are by grace and by works.

Now who is adding to the passage? Where does Paul even allude to "works of our own righteousness, which we have done without faith in God, before being saved by God"?

I agree. It's not wrong to interpret a passage and expand on it, by using other passages to do so.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Taken together, Paul was speaking of our own past works of our own righteousness, which we have done before believing Jesus.

Inserting one's own teaching into the Bible, to make it say something that contradicts the Bible, is not the same thing.

Paulo never says faith without works saves. James says faith without works cannot save.

Again, quote where Paul says this exact thing in the verses in question.

The Bible is saying our own righteous works, which we have done, are excluded from being saved.

Faith without works says our present works with Jesus are also excluded.

No, it is the exact opposite--it excludes all works.

And so we have it. All works, whether with or without Jesus, never have anything to do with saving faith, that is always without works of any sort.

It is a doctrinal idol that stands all alone, and cannot be touched by any good nor evil anyone does, so long as they glorify it.

And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

None of this is about being saved 'first' without works, but all about being saved 'always' without any works, whether good or evil.

Context, context, context. You are arguing from a post-justification passage about faith

The only post-justification in this life is returning to the old life of sin.

Faith without works teaches irreversible salvation and justification once for all by faith alone.

The doctrine of Christ is that we are being saved by faith and justified by works unto the end, if we continue keeping Jesus' faith and commandants at the end.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

If we are found righteous and holy in Him at His appearing, then we inherit the irreversible eternal salvation and kingdom of God by reward of resurrection from the dead unto life.

Being saved is not by reward of past works. Being resurrected unto life is by reward of good works unto the end.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Which doesn't have anything to do with justification.

And now, committing sinful works has nothing to do with being saved by faith alone.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It's not just doctrinal fiat here, but a gospel of being saved in our sins, not from our sins.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Again, how did you come to that conclusion? My argument isn't from silence--"because with works is not mentioned"--it's that Eph 2 explicitly teaches we are saved "by grace . . . not a result of works;" it's because not by works is mentioned.

Ok. Not all do so. I accept it.

Your teaching of not of works, lest we boast, is made according to your faith without works doctrine alone.

The Bible cannot separate faith from present works, and so the Bible is speaking only of past works.

Faith without works doctrine, that does not believe the Bible, includes present works of faith also having nothing to do with being saved.

Not at all. Paul's message is consistent--justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone and not by works.

Doubling down. I don't read 'alone' and 'not by works' in Paul's words about saving faith.

He does later say past works which we have done before Christ, has nothing to do with being saved by grace through faith.

That it is by grace and not by works, Paul states in Titus 3 that believers are saved "not because of works done by us in righteousness,

False translation to teach another doctrine of faith without works.

The only time any man is doing works in righteousness, is only by faith in God.

It's a crafty way of trying to insert present works, but wrongly translating in righteousness.

That Paul doesn't mention "by faith" in Titus 3 is not relevant as it is presumed from all his other writings, including Eph 2:8, but also:

Exactly, and that Paul doesn't mention faith with works in Eph 2 is not relevant, because other writings of the Bible say such faith is dead and can save no man.

So, we have been dancing around a while, and it's been an interesting exercise, but we both know things will be winding down, unless something new comes up. We don't want to just be talking over one another.

Here is the sum of faith without works doctrine:

Faith alone saves and justifies man apart from works.

Saving faith is always separated from works at any time, whether past, present, or future.

Sinful works has nothing to do with being saved and justified by God.

Everything else is just doctrine talk.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I find your post interesting. If nothing else:

Thank you. I try to be accurate without being boring. So I try not to repeat myself too much.

Even God gets bored with vain repetition.

In peoples prayers or at a time of your need, others inside or outside can put in a good word for you.

At the gentile inclusion Jews gave Cornelius a good recommendation to Peter.

eddif

True. The Jews also gave the centurion good recommendation to Jesus.

And?

 

[Free]

This is a personal teaching wrested from the verses, and inserted back in. We know this because it is rebuked by the Bible, that says faith without works is dead, being alone, and can save no man.

If we are not justified by works, then we are not saved by grace.

The issue is that you are taking one passage, that in James, and using it to trump everything else that is said in the NT. But that is not how we come to an understanding of a matter. We must make sense of all of it.

The NT is abundantly clear, even in James, that we are not justified by works. It is also clear throughout the NT that we are saved by grace. Both things are stated explicitly.

True. now you are quoting accurately and in context.

You've stated that twice now, yet each time I have quoted no differently than I have the whole time.

Since you do not believe that faith without works is dead and can save no man, and choose to believe faith without works saves. Then you try to insert your personal belief into the context.

That is not at all what I believe. I agree with James that faith without works is dead. The issue here is, as I pointed out initially, you have not defined what you mean by "salvation" or "saved." As such, you are conflating justification with sanctification and glorification. It is very important that these concepts are delineated.

And so you misquote Paul saying we are saved through faith without works, which contradicts James.

No, I quoted Paul accurately and he is in agreement with James. See above.

When we believe both Paul and James, then we know Paul is only speaking of past works without faith in Jesus.

No, that is to read into the text something that Paul is not saying. There is not even a hint that he is referring to past works. Again, you are using James to trump Paul without warrant for doing so.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Your faith without works doctrine, tries to insert itself into the Bible, and tries to say present and future works with Jesus are excluded.

Again, there are finer nuances you are missing here, namely, the difference between justification, sanctification, and glorification, each of which is spoken of as salvation or being saved. I have never said we have faith without works; I am in full agreement with James. But I am also in full agreement with Paul that we are justified by grace through faith, not works. Our works do absolutely nothing to justify us.

Exactly. Not of our own past doing without Jesus.

You are inserting that idea into the text. It is not of our own doing, period. Remember what Paul has said elsewhere:

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (ESV)

In Eph 2:8, Paul says that "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." So, if it is by works, as you say, then it cannot be a gift, as per Rom 4:4, and common sense of how things work in the world. A gift is either free or it has been earned and is not a gift.

It is in that same thought that Paul continues into verse 9: "not a result of works, so that no one may boast." The gift--having been saved by grace through faith--is not a result of works. If it was, it is not a gift and we could therefore boast since it would be our own doing. Verse 9 essentially repeats but provides further clarification of verse 8.

In your book by your Paul, yes. Not in the Bible with Jesus' apostles Paul and James, who do not contradict one another.

In the Bible if works are excluded from justification, then so is grace excluded from salvation, since both are by grace and by works.

How do you come to that conclusion, especially when Paul explicitly states that justification isn't by works, it is a gift which is by grace? You are contradiction what is very clearly stated. And, I agree, Paul and James do not contradict each other; it is your understanding of James that makes it so.

I agree. It's not wrong to interpret a passage and expand on it, by using other passages to do so.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Taken together, Paul was speaking of our own past works of our own righteousness, which we have done before believing Jesus.

Again, you are reading "past works" into the passage. That idea just isn't there. What Paul says there is no different than in Eph 2:8-9 and supported by Rom 4:4.

Inserting one's own teaching into the Bible, to make it say something that contradicts the Bible, is not the same thing.

Paulo never says faith without works saves. James says faith without works cannot save.

The issue is that you're conflating two different meanings of salvation. Paul explicitly says that justification is not by works, it is only by grace through faith, which is itself a gift from God. I honestly don't see how you can argue otherwise.

James is simply showing that one who thinks they have faith but doesn't do the good works that ought to result from being justified, isn't justified at all. What he is not saying is that works justify.

The Bible is saying our own righteous works, which we have done, are excluded from being saved.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Faith without works says our present works with Jesus are also excluded.

Faith without works says that we have no faith at all.

And so we have it. All works, whether with or without Jesus, never have anything to do with saving faith, that is always without works of any sort.

It is a doctrinal idol that stands all alone, and cannot be touched by any good nor evil anyone does, so long as they glorify it.

And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

None of this is about being saved 'first' without works, but all about being saved 'always' without any works, whether good or evil.

Again, there are nuances that you are overlooking or not understanding. You are continuing to conflate justification, sanctification, and glorification; they are distinct concepts but all speak of salvation in one way or another. Works do not ever justify us in the sight of God, but if we think we are justified but we never do good works, if our faith is actually dead, then haven't been justified at all.

The only post-justification in this life is returning to the old life of sin.

Faith without works teaches irreversible salvation and justification once for all by faith alone.

The doctrine of Christ is that we are being saved by faith and justified by works unto the end, if we continue keeping Jesus' faith and commandants at the end.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Where does Jesus ever teach that we are justified by our works? Justification is a one-time event--the point of conversion and regeneration.

If we are found righteous and holy in Him at His appearing, then we inherit the irreversible eternal salvation and kingdom of God by reward of resurrection from the dead unto life.

Being saved is not by reward of past works. Being resurrected unto life is by reward of good works unto the end.

Being resurrected unto life has to do only with whether or not one is justified, not works. We will all be judged by our works. For the unbeliever, it will determine the level of punishment (Luke 12:45-48); for the believer, it will determine the level of reward (1 Cor 3:12-15).

And now, committing sinful works has nothing to do with being saved by faith alone.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

It's not just doctrinal fiat here, but a gospel of being saved in our sins, not from our sins.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

[Elteqay]

OK, thanks for your POV.

Which covenant are you referring to?

I looked back over our posts and couldn't find any question regarding Paul.
Ask again...please,

BTW, I am glad the law of Christ has superseded any past ordinances and traditions.

The Law of Messiah is the 10 Commandments...first 5 dealing with loving Yahuah Tsevaoth, the second 5 dealing with loving your neighbor.

Are you anti-Paul ?

 

[Free]

Your teaching of not of works, lest we boast, is made according to your faith without works doctrine alone.

Again, how can you believe that it is somehow a doctrine that is not in scripture when Paul very clearly and explicilty states that that is the case in Eph 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5-7? Our works do not and cannot justify us before God. That is his free gift to us.

The Bible cannot separate faith from present works, and so the Bible is speaking only of past works.

Faith without works doctrine, that does not believe the Bible, includes present works of faith also having nothing to do with being saved.

Again, the problem of conflating the different facets of salvation is leading you to incorrect ideas and conclusions about salvation apart from works. It is very different from faith without works that James talks about.

Doubling down. I don't read 'alone' and 'not by works' in Paul's words about saving faith.

I know you do, depsite Paul clearly and explicitly saying so. I really don't understand how you can maintain such a position.

He does later say past works which we have done before Christ, has nothing to do with being saved by grace through faith.

Again, where? I have asked twice already for you to provide exactly where he says this, but you have yet to do so.

False translation to teach another doctrine of faith without works.

The only time any man is doing works in righteousness, is only by faith in God.

It's a crafty way of trying to insert present works, but wrongly translating in righteousness.

I fully agree with your second sentence, but the translation isn't false. Again, this comes down to you conflating the different facets of salvation and faith.

Exactly, and that Paul doesn't mention faith with works in Eph 2 is not relevant, because other writings of the Bible say such faith is dead and can save no man.

I honestly don't know how you can make such a claim. It simply doesn't work since you are trying to argue from silence when Paul clearly is not silent. It doesn't at all matter that Paul doesn't mention "faith with works," since he clearly and explicitly states in Eph 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works, that it is a gift from God. He unequivocally rules out works. Since Paul is consistent in his theology, it doesn't matter that he doesn't mention "by faith" in Titus 3:5-7, and he once again says that it is not because of works, "but according to his own mercy . . . being justified by grace." This is saying the exact same thing as in Eph 2:8-9 and it goes without saying that it is through faith.

So, we have been dancing around a while, and it's been an interesting exercise, but we both know things will be winding down, unless something new comes up. We don't want to just be talking over one another.

You desparately need to clear up all the issues with conflating the different facets of salvation as they relate to faith.

Here is the sum of faith without works doctrine:


Faith alone saves and justifies man apart from works.

Saving faith is always separated from works at any time, whether past, present, or future.

Sinful works has nothing to do with being saved and justified by God.

Everything else is just doctrine talk.

You're conflating "faith without works" with "justfication without works." They are not the same thing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Law of Messiah is the 10 Commandments...first 5 dealing with loving Yahuah Tsevaoth, the second 5 dealing with loving your neighbor.

We can extend it out beyond the two synopsizing ones Jesus laid down.

Are you anti-Paul ?

No.
Why would you think that?