Misnomer of Faith without works

[Robert Pate]

Confession of truth is not faith alone. Confession with the mouth is a work judged by God to save by.

The teaching of faith alone is a dead end with the Bible, since the Bible says faith alone is dead and can save no man.

The problem is not teaching faith without works. The problem is saying the Bible teaches it.

Many books have been disagreed with, even vehemently, but no other book as people trying to rewrite it, and say that's what the author really means.

Death bed repentances are also an indication of salvation by faith alone. "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1 and not to Gentile Christians. Many Christian scholars believe that the book of James should not have been included into the Bible.

 

[grace2]

We know this by taking all Scripture together, and not just one verse to teach doctrine from.

exactly. amen.

That's what OP is doing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Salvation has always been belief in Messiah, both Older and Renewed Covenant.
No where in the Renewed Covenant Scripture has Yah changed the dietary law. What Yah declared food is food. Not what MAN declares as food.

Were that true, than the OT is still in effect.
It isn't.

Helping the hungry is a good thing, that's why farmers in the Older Covenant couldn't harvest the corners of their fields or glean all of the grapes or olives.

In the OT it had to be legislated.
In the NT it is the divine nature of the reborn that does it naturally.

Paul certainly physically circumcised Timothy....but as I said, circumcision has always been the heart.

He did it so they wouldn't be kept out of the synagogues in Tim', town.

I am Torah Observant, meaning: I hear, learn, guard, and do the 7th Day Sabbath, the Set Apart Feast of Yah, eat what My Yahuah Elohayka calls food, and love my neighbor as myself.

Too bad for you, when Jesus died to set you free from it and make it's precepts part of your new nature.
Paul writes..."Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:14-23)

If you are still Torah observant, you are not dead with Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The thief on the cross was justified by faith alone.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.
The thief didn't need to get baptized for the remission of his past sins.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No one is living blameless in the way of the Lord.

You are wrong there.

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10.

That was correct when it was originally written...by David in Psalm 3.

The Pharisees were law keeping hypocrites, see Matthew the 23rd chapter.
Because Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they are able to live above sin,

You are right there.

but that does not save or justify them. Jesus is our justifier, Romans 3:26. We are saved and justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

And by even more than that, if it got broken down to individual items.
Saved by faith.
Saved by grace.
Saved by hope.
Saved by the washing of regeneration.
Saved by the gospel preached by Paul.
We shall be saved if we endure faithfully until the end.

 

[eddif]

The thief on the cross was justified by faith alone.

The thief on the cross was shortly to be in the grave with Jesus, and hearing Jesus preach the Gospel.

The cross experience was not the end of the story.

Now I am not smart enough to take the word Justified on to Salvation.

Romans 8:30 kjv
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Repentance is a start in a correct direction.
Ephesians 1:11 kjv
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

We start on a repentance journey to end up in his will.
Revelation 3:20


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Were that true, than the OT is still in effect.
It isn't.

Well no, and yes.

That can not be both yes and no.
Why not.

Matthew 5:18 kjv
18. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen.

Ask an End Times person about the heaven and earth passing away, and they will probably quote:
Revelation 8:7 kjjv
7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
(That scripture is not the last burning)
Luke 12:49 kjv
49.I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Now for last.
2 Peter 3:10 kjv
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Ok several burnings (heavens and fractions) but one total destruction.
……….
Getting too long. Cut back to law. As long as there are people lost that can be saved the law stands. Those who are saved the law does not have effect.

After we are saved the law of Moses is not for us. We do not return to law.

The law in hearts and minds remains.

We see through a glass darkly. All these partial burnings and final destruction are not crystal clear, and the law remains till all is ended.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Robert Pate]

You are wrong there.

That was correct when it was originally written...by David in Psalm 3.

You are right there.

And by even more than that, if it got broken down to individual items.
Saved by faith.
Saved by grace.
Saved by hope.
Saved by the washing of regeneration.
Saved by the gospel preached by Paul.
We shall be saved if we endure faithfully until the end.

None of what you listed there can save us. Everything that you listed is our response to the Gospel, it is what we do. What really saves us is what Jesus did in his life. death and resurrection. This is why we are justified by faith alone.

God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to his law. 2. A perfect atonement for his sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf has victoriously met both of those requirements. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

 

[Robert Pate]

The thief on the cross was shortly to be in the grave with Jesus, and hearing Jesus preach the Gospel.

The cross experience was not the end of the story.

Now I am not smart enough to take the word Justified on to Salvation.

Romans 8:30 kjv
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Repentance is a start in a correct direction.
Ephesians 1:11 kjv
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

We start on a repentance journey to end up in his will.
Revelation 3:20


Mississippi redneck
eddif

When the thief on the cross demonstrated faith in Jesus he became a Christian. In a micro second he was justified, sanctified and redeemed and became complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. He was born again by the Holy Spirit. Repentance is an ongoing work in the life of the believer. It cannot save or justify. Jesus is the justifier, Romans 3:26.

The condition for receiving the Holy Spirit is that God must see you as perfect and complete in Christ, Galatians 3:2.

 

[eddif]

When the thief on the cross demonstrated faith in Jesus he became a Christian. In a micro second he was justified, sanctified and redeemed and became complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. He was born again by the Holy Spirit. Repentance is an ongoing work in the life of the believer. It cannot save or justify. Jesus is the justifier, Romans 3:26.

The condition for receiving the Holy Spirit is that God must see you as perfect and complete in Christ, Galatians 3:2.

Well I reckon I see salvation as believing in the work that Christ had done.

In a micro second he moved into repentance. Hearing the Gospel in the one time sermon in the grave, he would move into salvation.

Repent and be baptized into the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Not one giant leap, but steps

Repentance
Salvation in Christ jedus
Holy Spirit - Power to be a witness

This can happen in a short time
Or like I drug it out
Repentance at 12
Salvation at 24?
Holy Spirit at 26?

Because I was so stupid I see the steps. When years go by you see the steps much clearer.

Have I arrived? No.
At the last trump I will be changed fully. Till that time I see through a glass darkly. Not blind but through dark sunshades .

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Elteqay]

Were that true, than the OT is still in effect.
It isn't.

In the OT it had to be legislated.
In the NT it is the divine nature of the reborn that does it naturally.

He did it so they wouldn't be kept out of the synagogues in Tim', town.

Too bad for you, when Jesus died to set you free from it and make it's precepts part of your new nature.
Paul writes..."Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:14-23)

If you are still Torah observant, you are not dead with Christ.

How did OT Saints receive their Salvation ? Do you believe it was from the slaughter of goats, sheep, and cattle ?

Do you even know what Torah means ?

 

[Robert Pate]

Well I reckon I see salvation as believing in the work that Christ had done.

In a micro second he moved into repentance. Hearing the Gospel in the one time sermon in the grave, he would move into salvation.

Repent and be baptized into the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Not one giant leap, but steps

Repentance
Salvation in Christ jedus
Holy Spirit - Power to be a witness

This can happen in a short time
Or like I drug it out
Repentance at 12
Salvation at 24?
Holy Spirit at 26?

Because I was so stupid I see the steps. When years go by you see the steps much clearer.

Have I arrived? No.
At the last trump I will be changed fully. Till that time I see through a glass darkly. Not blind but through dark sunshades .

Mississippi redneck
eddif

On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the Gospel and 8,000 Jews became Christians, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. There were no steps to salvation. They heard, they believed, and they were born again by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel is what gave birth to the New Testament church. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

 

[eddif]

On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the Gospel and 8,000 Jews became Christians, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. There were no steps to salvation. They heard, they believed, and they were born again by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel is what gave birth to the New Testament church. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the Gospel and 8,000 Jews became Christians, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. There were no steps to salvation. They heard, they believed, and they were born again by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel is what gave birth to the New Testament church. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Acts 2:37 kjv
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men andbrethren, what shall we do?
38. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men andbrethren, what shall we do?
39. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The gospel is presented.
Then in verse 38the steps appear:
Repent
Jesus
Holy Spirit

Seems simple to a redneck.
Hear Gospel
Follow directions.

eddif

 

[Robert Pate]

Acts 2:37 kjv
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men andbrethren, what shall we do?
38. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men andbrethren, what shall we do?
39. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The gospel is presented.
Then in verse 38the steps appear:
Repent
Jesus
Holy Spirit

Seems simple to a redneck.
Hear Gospel
Follow directions.

eddif

Those that were saved on the day of Pentecost heard and believed, Plus nothing. Baptism and repentance are the results of salvation, not the cause of it. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. They heard, they believed and were born again by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Notice that we are justified by grace through faith, not works, but that works come after we are justified as evidence of our faith.

Not works is added in.

Works only come after faith, as in some temporal timeline is the mind of natural men. They only believe what they can see, and so they define all works as outward deeds of the body.

 

[Free]

Not works is added in.

Why do you keep repeating that "not works is added in" when Paul writes that it is not by works?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Works only come after faith, as in some temporal timeline is the mind of natural men. They only believe what they can see, and so they define all works as outward deeds of the body.

No, that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't see how any of this addresses what I said, which was based on several passages.

It addresses when our works of faith must begin.

Do you say all works are of the body only? Do you deny we must also do works within the heart first?

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are justified by grace through faith only

I don't see that in the Bible. The only time I read of faith only, is that it neither saves nor justifies.

and the evidence of our justification is good works.

The evidence of our faith are good works. The justification through faith is by good works.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The Bible teaches faith is the evidence, without which there is no faith.

The evidence of faith not seen, are the inner works of the spirit of man, that God sees alone.

Outer works follow that men can see.

The Bible teaches the works we are doing outwardly, is evidence of the works we are doing inwardly.

The natural mind only acknowledges outward works, and so teaches there can be inner faith without works.

If there is no evidence of good works, then that faith is dead, and there was no justification.

True. And that evidence of works begins within the heart that God sees. If God does now see how works of the spirit, then He's already judged our faith to be alone and dead.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

And all of this is post-justification; such works don't justify us.

The Bible says different:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Until we acknowledge the inner first works of our spirit, we will never believe the Bible words to be justified by works.

Post-justification is only for the dogs returning to the vomit.

You do understand that justification is a one-time event, correct?

True. It begins in this life as a one time event of complete new beginning, where all things are now of God.

The doctrine of being justified by faith only, as an irreversible one time event, is the doctrine of faith without works, not the doctrine of the Bible.

It teaches so long as we believe we are saved, no matter what we are doing at the time, then we must be saved, because we believe it.

It's trusting in our own inner goodness by our own faith alone, even while our outer man is as filthy as the world.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Death bed repentances are also an indication of salvation by faith alone. "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Confession with the mouth from the heart is the first work that saves us.

Words are works judged by God, even as thoughts and intents of the heart.

The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1 and not to Gentile Christians.

Then put it aside.

This teaching of any NT doctrine being only for Jews, is in opposition to NT doctrine that there is neither Jew nor Greek in the body and Israel of God on earth.

The churches of God are now the tribes of God's Israel. We are all now grafted into the same holy olive tree of Christ.

Israel after the flesh, as Paul calls it, is just another uncircumcised nation on earth, that the risen God of Israel has no special dealings with nor promises, other than to get saved.

Many Christian scholars believe that the book of James should not have been included into the Bible.

More proof of not listening to Christian 'scholars'.

The proof that all Scripture of God is preserved in one Book of God, is that all the words from Genesis-Revelation are perfectly in agreement with one another, and do not contradict one another at any time.

When we have hidden His word in our hearts, we know Scripture of God when we read it, and we know when we are not reading it.

The Apocrypha may be interesting, but I know by reading any words of it, it's not Scripture of God.

Dittoes Plato.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well no, and yes.

If you think the OT is still in effect, I have some "good news" for you.

That can not be both yes and no.
Why not.
Matthew 5:18 kjv
18. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen.

Jesus' "all" has been fulfilled, and it happened at His resurrection from the dead.
And as He predicted, it happened before the end of the world.

Ask an End Times person about the heaven and earth passing away, and they will probably quote:
Revelation 8:7 kjjv
7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
(That scripture is not the last burning)
Luke 12:49 kjv
49.I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? Peter 3:10 kjv
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Ok several burnings (heavens and fractions) but one total destruction.

Their misunderstanding of Jesus words couldn't be manifest in any better manner.

……….
Getting too long. Cut back to law. As long as there are people lost that can be saved the law stands. Those who are saved the law does not have effect.

The Law doesn't save the unsaved either.

After we are saved the law of Moses is not for us. We do not return to law.
The law in hearts and minds remains.
We see through a glass darkly. All these partial burnings and final destruction are not crystal clear, and the law remains till all is ended.
Mississippi redneck

Coal fired locomotives remain too, but they are as obsolete as the Mosaic Law is.