The bible doesn't agree.
It says we are saved...by the six things I posted.
An answer to the gospel can save us.
But we must answer.
We must do what is required to "be in Him", or we will not be saved.
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Misnomer of Faith without works
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
It says we are saved...by the six things I posted.
But we must answer.
Faith in a coming Redeemer, and adherence to the Law of Moses.
That was the payment for sins in those bygone days.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, it means..."Torah, in Judaism, in the broadest sense, the substance of divine revelation to Israel, the Jewish people: God’s revealed teaching or guidance for humankind."
It is too bad the Torah couldn't provide what was necessary for rebirth from God's seed.
That includes accepting everything Jesus says.
Jesus says His Father is His God.
But you don't accept by claiming Jesus is God.
Your faith is so inconsistent, friend.
Agreed.
Yep.
Jesus was the Word: it was the Word "that was God". (John 1:1)
I disagree.
That's how you pervert His word.
You still don't understand what it means to be contextual.
So you will continually falsely witness the gospel to the world.
Robert Pate
Member
The law demands that you be perfect, are you perfect? If you don't do everything that is written in the book of the law, you will perish, Galatians 3:10. There are over 2,000 commandments in the book of the law.
Here is the solution.
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4.
God accepts the righteousness of Christ in our name and on our behalf, because we don't have any.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Because it's not added in where you say it is. You keep adding it in. I don't read where we are saved by grace through faith without works.
Now you are quoting properly.
In the first part, he says nothing about works, therefore to include anything about works at this point, such as without works, is changing the teaching.
In the second part He says nothing about faith, and so to include anything about faithy here, such as with faith, is also changing the teaching.
He is not commending faith without works, nor is he excluding works with faith.
The next context proves he is only speaking about works to boast of in being saved. Those are all the works of our own righteousness, which we have done without faith in God, before being saved by God. They are not faithful works of His righteousness by His Spirit.
Nowhere in the verse is any faith without works commended. Neither are any works with faith excluded.
The only works excluded from being saved, are our own works righteousness, without faith in God.
The error of faith without works teaching, is that it includes all works, whether good or evil.
James is only speaking of faith without good works, which has examples.
Teaching of faith without any works at all, is not in the Bible. That is a meaningless teaching of a hypothetical faith.
It's not possible for any man to be doing no works at all at any time on earth. That is only believed by natural minded people, who think works of man are only with the body.
The Bible teaches the first works of man created in His image, are our inward works of the thoughts and intents and imaginations of the heart, which are judged by God as committing the acts themselves.
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
And so, according to the standard you teach in Ephesians 2, we must now say we are justified by grace without faith.
On the one hand you say Ephesians 2 is teaching faith only without works, just because with works is not mentioned.
Ok, so by your own standard, you must now say we are justified by grace only without faith, because there is no mention of through faith here.
The same kind of double standard is used on being saved by grace and being justified by works.
On the one hand being saved by grace must be with grace, but on the other hand being justified by works, must not be with works.
If being saved through faith means without works, then being justified by grace means without faith.
If being justified by works, is not with works, then being saved by grace, is not with grace.
I have quoted twice exactly where Paul states that we are saved by God's grace and "not because of works." That is exactly the same as saying "without works." We are justified by grace through faith and works have no bearing on that.
That's how I have been consistently quoting...
You cannot be serious. You are pitting two consecutive verses against each other to make them both say something they are not saying. Do you understand how context works? The verses must be taken together as forming the same argument, and that argument very clearly is that we are saved "by grace . . . through faith . . . not a result of works." Everything in those two verses supports that idea--"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God;" "so that no one may boast."
Paul is absolutely excluding works in justification.
Now who is adding to the passage? Where does Paul even allude to "works of our own righteousness, which we have done without faith in God, before being saved by God"? Where are those three ideas mentioned? Ironic that you chide me for actually quoting what was said and saying that I was adding to the verses, when you have clearly added things not at all mentioned.
Again, works are absolutely excluded. It is entirely by grace as a gift from God. Please, quote exactly where Paul says "works of our own righteousness," works "which we have done without faith in God," and works which were done "before being saved by God," in the verses in question.
Again, quote where Paul says this exact thing in the verses in question.
No, it is the exact opposite--it excludes all works.
Context, context, context. You are arguing from a post-justification passage about faith which is proven by good works to justification which is by grace through faith apart from works.
Which doesn't have anything to do with justification.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? I have clearly and consistently stated that we are saved by grace through faith, as per Eph 2:8.
Again, how did you come to that conclusion? My argument isn't from silence--"because with works is not mentioned"--it's that Eph 2 explicitly teaches we are saved "by grace . . . not a result of works;" it's because not by works is mentioned.
Not at all. Paul's message is consistent--justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone and not by works. That it is by grace and not by works, Paul states in Titus 3 that believers are saved "not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy" (v. 5), and that we are "justified by his grace" (v. 7). This is consistent with Eph 2:5-8.
That Paul doesn't mention "by faith" in Titus 3 is not relevant as it is presumed from all his other writings, including Eph 2:8, but also:
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
...
Rom_3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (ESV)
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— (ESV)
If you want to obey what is written in the bible, how about starting with 1 Tim 2:12 ?
Jesus demanded it too.
Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
And...“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
Paul too commands it..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
In answer to your question...I am perfect.
Sinless as a man can get after repenting of sin and having his past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, (1 John 1:7), at my water baptism into Him and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
If you consider "the book of the law" to be, as Jesus said, love God with all your might, mind, strength, and soul: and love your neighbor as you love yourself...you are correct.
More than that is OT, Pharisaic, Law keeping; which didn't do any one any good.
We do "have any" after our rebirth from God's seed.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
No wars.
A man must die to their carnal nature.
A woman has to die to their carnal nature.
In Christ there is neither
male nor female.
Bond nor free
Jew or Gentile
I see through a glass darkly.
eddif
It is not Jesus' own word. It is an interpretation of Paul.
Jesus is the Lord!
He states He is the Teacher.
For sure.
There are carnal minded men who should never speak in Church.
Matthew 19:10-11 (and area) are when Jesus is teaching.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, and chosen by Him to let the Gentiles know that they too were eligible for eternal life.
I think Paul's words are worthy of acceptance.
Last edited:
Robert Pate
Member
Paul never claimed to be righteous. Paul said that he was the chief of sinners, 1 Timothy 1:15. And then he makes it clear that he struggles with sin, Romans 7:7-25. We are called to live our lives before God as sinners, Romans 8:23. Saved sinners. As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners and will sin. Romans 3:10.
Grace is required!
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
115. Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral
truths.
116. For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (Only actual grace)
117. In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation,
to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and
moral truths of the natural order.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
119. God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the
observation of the Divine Commandments.
120. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
121. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen
sins, to eternal rejection.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
123. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere
sufficiens).
124. The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the
grace by which he is justified.
125. The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith.
126. Besides faith, further acts of disposition must be present.
127. Sanctifying grace sanctifies the soul.
128. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a friend of God.
129. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him a claim to the inheritance
of Heaven.
130. The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with
Sanctifying grace.
131. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the
state of grace.
132. The degree of justifying grace is not identical in all the just.
133. Grace can be increased by good works.
134. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal,
serious] sin.
135. By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from
God.
136. A just man merits for himself through each good work an increase of sanctifying grace,
eternal life (if he dies in a state of grace) and an increase of heavenly glory.
Thanks
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
115. Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral
truths.
116. For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (Only actual grace)
117. In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation,
to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and
moral truths of the natural order.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
119. God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the
observation of the Divine Commandments.
120. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
121. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen
sins, to eternal rejection.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
123. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere
sufficiens).
124. The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the
grace by which he is justified.
125. The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith.
126. Besides faith, further acts of disposition must be present.
127. Sanctifying grace sanctifies the soul.
128. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a friend of God.
129. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him a claim to the inheritance
of Heaven.
130. The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with
Sanctifying grace.
131. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the
state of grace.
132. The degree of justifying grace is not identical in all the just.
133. Grace can be increased by good works.
134. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal,
serious] sin.
135. By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from
God.
136. A just man merits for himself through each good work an increase of sanctifying grace,
eternal life (if he dies in a state of grace) and an increase of heavenly glory.
Thanks
What book of church order is this from?
eddif
The worst of those now saved by Christ.
But no longer a sinner by any means.
This was Paul narrating where he was at before he converted.
Not his post-conversion life.
Are you kidding me?
We are called to live and walk as Christ walked.
Have you never heard of rebirth?
It occurs after the destruction of the old, Adamic, man. (Rom 6:6)