Modern day Christian “Phariseesâ€

[Cornelius]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

I think that following rules itself is not the problem. The problem of the Phaisees is to make use of the rules for their own power social status to the extend that they refuse to recognise any truth not formally from a Pharisees source. They consider that they are the only legitimate source not for the sake of the truth but power and social status and perhaps wealth and such.

Well said Now do we see them in the church today ?

 

[francisdesales]

God never told us to leave the church. It is impossible for Christians to leave the church because they are the church. Scriptures only tells us to leave the Harlot, not the church (which is as I said :impossible)

Christians who share one faith, one hope, one Lord are of the Church. I find a number of citations of false teachers who "went out from us, but are not part of us". I find men excommunicated for bad morale behavior - and Christians are told to avoid such people, pray for them. It's not quite so simple. Yes, our baptism into the Lord's death and resurrection makes us part of the Church, but it appears that we can cast ourselves into the darkness as a result of our behavior or our refusal to follow the teachings of Christ given by the Apostles.

Leave the harlot means leave the ways of the world, do you agree?

The only way to leave the church is to fall away from salvation. Now that is something that many will do during the tribulation.

During their own personal tribulations, it certainly is possible, as Jesus relates in the sower of the seed parable. We can make a shipwreck of OUR faith long before the said "tribulation", the end of time.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

I think that following rules itself is not the problem. The problem of the Phaisees is to make use of the rules for their own power social status to the extend that they refuse to recognise any truth not formally from a Pharisees source. They consider that they are the only legitimate source not for the sake of the truth but power and social status and perhaps wealth and such.

Well said Now do we see them in the church today ?

Sin is everywhere, all men sin, and some do abuse their authority. It is not surprising that some men fail to be what Christ meant them to be, as we all have free will. But this is a poor logical reason to "move outside the camp", so to speak. We reform the camp, not leave. Leaving is not the way of Christ. He did not form an Essene-ic community completely separate from the Jewish ritual practices, He attempted to preach and reform those within the community.

Let's follow the way of Christ and spread God's love within the community. Let's be like the Apostles, who urged followers of Christ to love each other and to bear every burden.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Leave the harlot means leave the ways of the world, do you agree?

I really see the Harlot, not as the "world" because God actually uses "Babylon" for a type for the world. The Lord has two types that are opposites : 1) Virgin 2) Harlot because it is easy to understand . Both images are female (church) and both references (virgin and harlot) has to do with 1) not receiving seed of many men 2 ) receiving seed from many men. So these are two opposites in spirit.

If we look into "seed" we see that in Matthews the word "sperma" is translated for "seed". We , the children of the Kingdom are the "sperma" of God that goes into the wold. We are "sown" as living seed (living Word) into the world to produce after our own kind.(making disciples in the image of Christ )

The virgin will only receive Word (seed) from her husband and then she will produce (like Mary) the Chirst, when Christ is finally manifested (when she has reached the maturity that Ephesians speaks of)
When we mix the Word with anything else, it becomes powerless . This is seen as the Harlot. Its when Christians allow the teachings of men to enter and mix with the seed of God.

That is a very clear and simple picture that God paints with these two "women" In fact, they are both mentioned here as well :
Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.

Both are at the mill : milling the seeds that will be made into bread. The Bride is making Bread from the Words of God and the Harlot is milling her mixture and is also producing bread. God is only going to take one of them :The Bride.

We then also see that God has two men in the field ( We know the field is the world , because we are told here : Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; So here we have what you are referring to as coming out of the world Notice that there are in fact only two groups (men) in the world as a whole 1) those for Christ and 2) those NOT for Christ (antichrist ) So these two men are two bodies of people: 1) The body of Christ 2) The body of antichrist (which will include the Harlot as a smaller group)

Mat 24:40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:

 

[francisdesales]

Leave the harlot means leave the ways of the world, do you agree?

I really see the Harlot, not as the "world" because God actually uses "Babylon" for a type for the world. The Lord has two types that are opposites : 1) Virgin 2) Harlot because it is easy to understand . Both images are female (church) and both references (virgin and harlot) has to do with 1) not receiving seed of many men 2 ) receiving seed from many men. So these are two opposites in spirit.

If we look into "seed" we see that in Matthews the word "sperma" is translated for "seed". We , the children of the Kingdom are the "sperma" of God that goes into the wold. We are "sown" as living seed (living Word) into the world to produce after our own kind.(making disciples in the image of Christ )

The virgin will only receive Word (seed) from her husband and then she will produce (like Mary) the Chirst, when Christ is finally manifested (when she has reached the maturity that Ephesians speaks of)
When we mix the Word with anything else, it becomes powerless . This is seen as the Harlot. Its when Christians allow the teachings of men to enter and mix with the seed of God.

That is a very clear and simple picture that God paints with these two "women" In fact, they are both mentioned here as well :
Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.

Both are at the mill : milling the seeds that will be made into bread. The Bride is making Bread from the Words of God and the Harlot is milling her mixture and is also producing bread. God is only going to take one of them :The Bride.

We then also see that God has two men in the field ( We know the field is the world , because we are told here : Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; So here we have what you are referring to as coming out of the world Notice that there are in fact only two groups (men) in the world as a whole 1) those for Christ and 2) those NOT for Christ (antichrist ) So these two men are two bodies of people: 1) The body of Christ 2) The body of antichrist (which will include the Harlot as a smaller group)

Mat 24:40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:

Interesting interpretation, I hadn't considered the two woman working at the mill as related to this subject...

I think "harlot" is used similarly as used in the OT, refering to God's People who have gone astray, following other "men", rather than the Bridegroom. God is a jealous God...

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

We reform the camp, not leave. Leaving is not the way of Christ. He did not form an Essene-ic community completely separate from the Jewish ritual practices, He attempted to preach and reform those within the community.

When I look at it, I see Jesus calling people out of the religion of that day. In fact, Jesus took the Pharisees on and they eventually killed Him because of it. They saw their flock going after the "new Guy" and they did not like it one bit.

Jesus could not reform Law into Grace. You had to leave the old and step into the New. In type we see this in Eli and Samuel . Eli (the old and blind system) falling over and dying before Samuel takes over. In Eli's time the word of the Lord was rare. Not so in the time of Samuel.

We see this in Saul (old system) and David (New) Saul transgressed and died, then David took over.

In fact we are seeing this very thing starting to happen in our time now. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: ......... God is first going to judge the church , before judging the world.

 

[Cornelius]

I think "harlot" is used similarly as used in the OT, refering to God's People who have gone astray, following other "men", rather than the Bridegroom. God is a jealous God...

Regards

You are correct

 

[elijah23]

I think that following rules itself is not the problem. The problem of the Phaisees is to make use of the rules for their own power social status to the extend that they refuse to recognise any truth not formally from a Pharisees source. They consider that they are the only legitimate source not for the sake of the truth but power and social status and perhaps wealth and such.

Yes, I think that self-aggrandizement was their motivation, at least in their dealings with Jesus. They were terribly jealous of him, I think.

 

[Mysteryman]

Also: I cannot tell people to leave the Harlot because in reality its God who said that. I have no authority on my own to tell anybody to leave

Hi C.


And what good is it for one to leave the bed of a harlot, and jump back into bed with another harlot ? Just because one claims to have left a particular harlot, does not mean that they are now communing with the Holy Spirit !

 

[Cornelius]

Hi C.


And what good is it for one to leave the bed of a harlot, and jump back into bed with another harlot ? Just because one claims to have left a particular harlot, does not mean that they are now communing with the Holy Spirit !

Not good at all.

 

[francisdesales]

When I look at it, I see Jesus calling people out of the religion of that day.

I don't see it that way. He is the protypical Prophet, calling people BACK to true religion, which goes deeper than MERELY rituals. I think you'll agree that Jesus never denied the value of rituals, when done with a pure heart. For example, he told us that if we have an issue with a brother, put down the offering and make amends, then return to complete the offering.

To me, this is not a call to leave religion, but to purify it, reminding us that true religion depends upon our inner self. Jesus tells us this over and over esp. in Matt 5-7.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

I don't see it that way. He is the protypical Prophet, calling people BACK to true religion, which goes deeper than MERELY rituals. I think you'll agree that Jesus never denied the value of rituals, when done with a pure heart. For example, he told us that if we have an issue with a brother, put down the offering and make amends, then return to complete the offering.

To me, this is not a call to leave religion, but to purify it, reminding us that true religion depends upon our inner self. Jesus tells us this over and over esp. in Matt 5-7.

Regards

Well we are obviously looking from two different perspectives brother. From my view, Jesus came to fulfill the Old, He was on time (if we look at the time-line prophesies ....they should have known the exact date He made the triumphant entry into Jerusalem ) He was there to be the Messiah, to finally become what He was suppose to be " King of their hearts. Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.

But they expected a real king that would save them from Rome. The Old T was over, because its fulfillment came and was not recognized . He brought the new wine and said: Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved. So He could not pour the new into the old. He had to call those out , who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" The Pharisees stayed behind.

When we look at the prophesies regarding the time that we are in now, we see that indeed something similar is going to happen. Strange enough: God is going to repeat the Gospel story again, but this time on a world-wide scale. All the players are already in place, the only difference is that now instead of them being one person or group like ancient Rome we now have a world-wide Beast Mary is a type for the Bride and the disciples those who will follow the man-child (Rev 12) who Jesus was the sign for.Luk 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said.... this child is..... for a sign.....
Judas , the son of perdition, now has a whole group called after him : Son of perdition (All those who are now with us as "Christians" but secretly they are not of us in reality. These will soon fall away .)

Ha, I am going to stop here, because I love this subject and has been known to talk for hours about it

 

[francisdesales]

Well we are obviously looking from two different perspectives brother. From my view, Jesus came to fulfill the Old, He was on time (if we look at the time-line prophesies ....they should have known the exact date He made the triumphant entry into Jerusalem ) He was there to be the Messiah, to finally become what He was suppose to be " King of their hearts. Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.

But they expected a real king that would save them from Rome.

Those expectations are not part of Judaism, but humans desiring to be freed from tyranny.

There really was no "accepted" set of charecteristics of the future Messiah that all agreed upon. It is not totally true to say "everyone expected a real king that would save them from Rome". Many were looking at a more cosmic point of view. If you are familiar with Jewish intra-testament literature, you will find many different views of who the Messiah would be.

The Old T was over, because its fulfillment came and was not recognized . He brought the new wine and said: Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved. So He could not pour the new into the old. He had to call those out , who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" The Pharisees stayed behind.

The new wine is the teachings of inner self moving to love neighbor. Jesus makes it clear He did not come to overturn ANYTHING, to include the Pharisaical system. His opponents are not the system, but people with improper attitudes. All was taught before in the Torah, quite frankly.

Yes, Mary is indeed a type for the Church, a microcosm, if you will, the woman standing at the foot of the cross, crushing the head of satan. That's why she is revered by us.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Those expectations are not part of Judaism, but humans desiring to be freed from tyranny.

There really was no "accepted" set of charecteristics of the future Messiah that all agreed upon. It is not totally true to say "everyone expected a real king that would save them from Rome". Many were looking at a more cosmic point of view. If you are familiar with Jewish intra-testament literature, you will find many different views of who the Messiah would be.

I am only pointing out, that in the Bible we are shown that they did not see Him as He was/is. The Bible only shows those who looked towards an earthly King. Even the disciples did. Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass.

The new wine is the teachings of inner self moving to love neighbor. Jesus makes it clear He did not come to overturn ANYTHING, to include the Pharisaical system. His opponents are not the system, but people with improper attitudes. All was taught before in the Torah, quite frankly.

The new wine, is the gospel of the Kingdom Love towards our neighbor is part of that gospel, but not the whole gospel.

Yes Jesus did not overturn anything , He called the disciples out. Mat 8:22 But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead.

C

 

[francisdesales]

I am only pointing out, that in the Bible we are shown that they did not see Him as He was/is. The Bible only shows those who looked towards an earthly King. Even the disciples did. Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass.

True. I think it was relatively common that the Messiah would bring temporal peace, more than spiritual peace. This is why many Jews still do not see Jesus as the Messiah - there is still war, etc...

The new wine, is the gospel of the Kingdom Love towards our neighbor is part of that gospel, but not the whole gospel.

Yes Jesus did not overturn anything , He called the disciples out. Mat 8:22 But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead.

I think "called them to a higher form of Love" would be more correct, since we agree that Jesus didn't come to overturn rituals, but rather, ensuring that the inner self, worship in the spirit, was the POINT of rituals, not just to do the rituals. God desires mercy and conversion, not sacrifice of animals...

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

LOL, I never agreed about rituals.

I have an example of a modern day famous pastor's teachings. Would you say we must stay with him and try and reform him from the inside. Or must we leave ?

Examples of his teaching:

"Jesus knew his worth, his success fed his self-esteem.... He suffered the cross to sanctify his self-esteem. And he bore the cross to sanctify your self-esteem. And the cross will sanctify the ego trip!"

2. "A person is in hell when he has lost his self-esteem."

7. "A variety of approaches to meditation...is employed by many different religions as well as by various non-religious mind- control systems. In all forms... TM, Zen Buddhism, or Yoga or... mediation... of Judaeo-Christian tradition... the meditator endeavors to overcome the distractions of the conscious mind...."

"It is important to remember that meditation in any form is the harnessing, by human means, of God's divine laws.... We are endowed with a great many powers and forces that we do not yet fully understand."

"The most effective mantras employ the "M" sound. You can get the feel of it by repeating the words, "I am, I am," many times over.... Transendental Meditation or TM... is not a religion nor is it necessarily anti-Christian."


12. "Self-love is a crowning sense of self-worth. It is an ennobling emotion of self-respect... an abiding faith in yourself. It is sincere belief in yourself."


14. "Where the sixteenth-century Reformation returned our focus to sacred Scriptures as the only infallible rule for faith and practice, the new reformation will return our focus to the sacred right of every person to self-esteem!"

"Don't worry about humility. The easiest job God has to do is to keep you an me humble. God's biggest job is to get us to believe that we are somebody and that we really can do something...."


"I must be of infinite value in God's sight"


"The most serious sin is the one that causes me to say, 'I am unworthy. I may have no claim to divine sonship if you examine me at my worst.'"



These are just some of what he teaches on American TBN Christian television. Would you say he is apostate in his teaching? or is he somebody that we must follow.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi C.


And what good is it for one to leave the bed of a harlot, and jump back into bed with another harlot ? Just because one claims to have left a particular harlot, does not mean that they are now communing with the Holy Spirit !

Not good at all.

Hi C.

Funny thing, people are teaching it right here on this forum. hmmm

 

[francisdesales]

LOL, I never agreed about rituals.

I have an example of a modern day famous pastor's teachings. Would you say we must stay with him and try and reform him from the inside. Or must we leave ?

Oh, rituals. hey, if they move people's mind towards God, I don't see the problem.

As to the "famous" pastor, he's already "outside" as a teacher, remember the 16th century "deformation"? We must leave such teachers who tickle the ear.

I would say he is concentrating a bit too much on self-esteem. I do disagree with you regarding the purpose or usefulness of meditation. It is not the same thing as contemplative prayer, which relies more upon God.

Regard

 

[glorydaz]

The church is the true body of Christ...not all the different churches and denominations with their false gospel. The body has always needed to beware of false teachers. We were never to be a part of their assemblies. There are many churches that are nothing more than the world...of course we come out from among them. We've always been called to be separate from the world's religions...even when they call themselves Christian.

 

[Cornelius]

The church is the true body of Christ...not all the different churches and denominations with their false gospel. The body has always needed to beware of false teachers. We were never to be a part of their assemblies. There are many churches that are nothing more than the world...of course we come out from among them. We've always been called to be separate from the world's religions...even when they call themselves Christian.

I am interested, where is the cut off point? When do we leave.