Modern day Christian “Phariseesâ€

[Adullam]

How many believers have sufficient experience and discernment to not be fooled by the counterfeit that presents itself as the true representation of the way?

Men would much rather Christianize their existing systems, cultures, and traditions rather than actually follow Christ Himself. It's ....thanks Jesus...we'll take it from here! :gah

 

[Mysteryman]

Another reason found in Protestant and RCC is that people love to hand over the responsibility of their salvation into the hands of those they deem more qualified than themselves. That is why they listen to "the Church" because we think that God will not hold us responsible if we submit to what people tell us is His church. The possibility of this not being His church, is considered a heresy and so :impossible. That is why its so easy to serve the institution that is ultimately the One that you look to for your salvation.

Hi C.

I believe that your thoughts here can be just as blinding as those who follow an organization.

Within the scriptures, the building, that the Word speaks about, is still based upon its foundation. The chief corner stone is Christ, and the foundation is made up of Apostles and Prophets. There are those who think that they are called out men of God, and then there are those who are most definetly called out men of God.

One can follow a false teacher just as easily as those who follow the leaders of an organized institution. The danger is the same, no matter how you slice it.

Salvation is a given ! In that my sheep hear my voice. Working out our salvation with trembling and fear is based upon walking in righteousness. Right believing is righteousness as is wrong believing being unrighteousness. No matter who dishes out unrighteousness, it is still unrighteousness !

God still sends men of God unto the church. Even Paul said follow me, as I am in Christ. He set an example by which to follow. And God gave him certain authority over the righteousness of God. God is still sending out men of God , called of God. But there are many false teachers who have gone out into the world. Organized or unorganized institutions can both bring about false doctorines. And even with the best intentions by either group, there is going to be false brethren and false teachers and false apostles and false prophets that are going to sway and deceive.

Organized and establlished sects, need to be flexible unto the truth. Their main problem is that they lack a certain amount of flexibility. Some are much more law driven, in that it is their way or the highway attitude. Like our way, or your going to hell, attitude. Or - there is no way but our way mentality. There are sin unto death, and these should be made very clear.

As the truth is, that there is only one way. To make such a claim would take a man of God standing upon the truth without making rules that would hinder the truth. This man of God does not allow for wrong teaching to enter in. But allows the listener the opportunity to hear the truth. As Paul has told the church, "let every man be persuaded in their own mind" and he also has said - "for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them hear".

 

[Cornelius]

Thank you francisdesales for taking all this time in relying, but you are proving my point that they taught you well. You have in fact done as I predicted.(no malice meant, just the fact )

I do not think that all institutions are evil-based . I think they sincerely mean well. Somebody once said: Denominations are the play-pens that new Christians start off in. and then they grow up and climb over the bars.

A point on true humility : Its when we submit to the Word.

I am purely posting a view on "churches". I am not telling anybody to leave anything. I have been teaching a small group now for a few years. All from different denominations. I have not once in all this time told any of them to leave their churches. I have not even hinted at it .. (LOL difficult is it might seem, considering my posting here ) but up to now, all of them have left their denominations. We are not a church, we are just a study group.That is all. No aspirations of being anything else. We do however have an apostolic ministry that we go to when we get stuck. They too are informal and not "between walls". They again relate to pastors, prophets, evangelist , teachers and apostles worldwide.Non of which belong to them in a formal way. We all simply relate as the church, with the church. We choose no leadership: they just happen, when God anoints them. They do not "climb the ladder", they are recognized in the community by and through their fruit.

When in doubt I email the church in Pensacola and they pray and get back to me. They in turn are in contact with the church in Germany and Iceland etc. Worldwide communication by a worldwide church. Believers who have stepped out of the world because they were called out.....ekkl?sia, the "called out ones". I have not met all of them, they are far too many. I have met some on this forum and on other forums too. They all seem to agree with the Word in the same way and yet we do not belong to the same "denomination" .

We are simply .........the church......the church in Pretoria, the church in New York, the church in Pensacola....the church in Hamburg....the church in Melbourne.......etc. Our leadership are anointed but do not get paid. They are all serving us for free.We look after the believers and see to their needs. We see many miracles happening in these days. The power of God still follows the true gospel as in the time of the first disciples.

 

[Adullam]

What if Christianity is real, unlike anything before it? Not just a new religious face to stamp on our existing coins of belief, structure, and moral values.

"Let us resacrilize this temple of Jupiter to the new god!"

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you francisdesales for taking all this time in relying, but you are proving my point that they taught you well. You have in fact done as I predicted.(no malice meant, just the fact )

I do not think that all institutions are evil-based . I think they sincerely mean well. Somebody once said: Denominations are the play-pens that new Christians start off in. and then they grow up and climb over the bars.

A point on true humility : Its when we submit to the Word.

I submit to the Word BY obeying what God has established. That is how I am certain I am submiting to the Word, rather than MY OWN INTERPRETATION of the Word. As you well know, people have many interpretations of the Word, and flock to a particular denomination that matches THEIR interpretation. I look at history, find Catholicism comes from the Apostles. Thus, rather than finding something that meets my interpretations, whether it is myself or Methodists, or whatever, I go to the historically established Church that Christ built upon the foundation of the Apostles. When first coming to this institution, I didn't personally agree with everything.

Birth control. Divorce. I can locate verses in Scriputures that appear to back up my stance on those issues, and remain adamant that I am following God's Word, when in reality, I am twisting God's Word to suit my own personal tastes. I can even FIND a church that teaches "it's OK to strap on a condom" or "it's OK to divorce and remarry if you are sorry", or "it's OK to have women preachers and such".

However, I chose a different route. i saw the historical roots and now submit myself to GOD'S WORD, not my own interpretation of it. I learned to understand and accept the Church's teaching on those issues I wasn't so sure on or disagreed with. Oh, I could have claimed "freedom" and found something that would teach my opinions. But I decided, with an open heart, that I will submit to God, even if I disagree with a teaching, by following the Church HE established and promised to maintain without error in doctrine.

So while I may have acted just as you planned, you already know my story and I am sure I have related my journey to you before. I submit to what I believe is God's Church. Is that a mistake in thinking, that I shouldn't submit to God's Church, but rather, to myself and my own opinions of what is right and wrong on issues???

I am purely posting a view on "churches". I am not telling anybody to leave anything.

Sure you are, you preach "come out of her", speaking of ALL denominations. Has your wife gotten a hold of your keyboard the last week or something???

I have been teaching a small group now for a few years. All from different denominations. I have not once in all this time told any of them to leave their churches.

I will leave others to judge your very own posts about "coming out of her".

When in doubt I email the church in Pensacola and they pray and get back to me. They in turn are in contact with the church in Germany and Iceland etc. Worldwide communication by a worldwide church. Believers who have stepped out of the world because they were called out.....ekkl?sia, the "called out ones". I have not met all of them, they are far too many. I have met some on this forum and on other forums too. They all seem to agree with the Word in the same way and yet we do not belong to the same "denomination" .

We are simply .........the church......the church in Pretoria, the church in New York, the church in Pensacola....the church in Hamburg....the church in Melbourne.......etc. Our leadership are anointed but do not get paid. They are all serving us for free.We look after the believers and see to their needs. We see many miracles happening in these days. The power of God still follows the true gospel as in the time of the first disciples.

The Spirit blows where He wills, I agree that elements of God's Word has reached beyond the "visible" walls of the Church, even to these various communities you speak of. Let God be praised, as long as the Word is preached. However, none of them were formed by Christ, they are all manmade attempts to seek God and can only be PARTIAL truths... That in of itself is not a bad thing, having some truth, but I believe God is found WITHIN the Church and CAN be better understood within the context of what we can learn there. Knowing the type of person that I am, one who is proud and too smart for his own good, I prefer to try to crucify myself and my passions by remaining humble and obedient to others, allowing others who are guided by God to feed me. I believe that is more in keeping with the Word, since the sheep are not told to entirely feed themselves.

If you can remain humble to God's Word, without turning it to your opinions already formed, you are on the right track, I believe.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Do Catholics know, for instance, that Rome elected curios (priests) and pontifex maximuses (popes) hundreds of years before the time of Christ? A new legend is introduced, new gods (or a god) to sacrifice to and pay lip service to...and the gods are propitiated!!!! Now we can get on with our own lives. Is it any wonder that shrewd observers see the religion as the opiate of the people? :verysad

Yes, I know that the Roman republic elected men to be priests, long before Christ was incarnate. I also know that the Emperor (once Rome was no longer a Republic) by default became the "pontifex maximus", although in reality, this was a political, not a religious position. So what.

the difference stands out when these popes and priests follow the dictates of Christ by leading lives of holiness and sacrifice for the sake of the Body of Christ and lead in the fashion of servants. When these men do not lead lives of holiness and teach with authority as the pagans, it becomes more difficult to see God in the institution.

The "church of one" people can be accused of the very same "religion is a crutch" observation as any other devout Christian who has some loyalty to a particular organization. When you pray, an atheist observer can accuse you of the very same things, relying on a fairy tale to give you what you want.

On this, all believers must face such doubt from the world. It has always been so. We have always heard "where is your God?", as in the Psalms. Being on your own doesn't insulate you from this.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

Lu:18:10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu:18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu:18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


"I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ."- Pope Nicholas(Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)


It's not too hard to figure this one out.

 

[Adullam]

Do Catholics know, for instance, that Rome elected curios (priests) and pontifex maximuses (popes) hundreds of years before the time of Christ? A new legend is introduced, new gods (or a god) to sacrifice to and pay lip service to...and the gods are propitiated!!!! Now we can get on with our own lives. Is it any wonder that shrewd observers see the religion as the opiate of the people? :verysad

Yes, I know that the Roman republic elected men to be priests, long before Christ was incarnate. I also know that the Emperor (once Rome was no longer a Republic) by default became the "pontifex maximus", although in reality, this was a political, not a religious position. So what.

the difference stands out when these popes and priests follow the dictates of Christ by leading lives of holiness and sacrifice for the sake of the Body of Christ and lead in the fashion of servants. When these men do not lead lives of holiness and teach with authority as the pagans, it becomes more difficult to see God in the institution.

The "church of one" people can be accused of the very same "religion is a crutch" observation as any other devout Christian who has some loyalty to a particular organization. When you pray, an atheist observer can accuse you of the very same things, relying on a fairy tale to give you what you want.

On this, all believers must face such doubt from the world. It has always been so. We have always heard "where is your God?", as in the Psalms. Being on your own doesn't insulate you from this.

Regards

Men led "holy" lives by Jupiter as well! The sacred did not begin with Jesus. The flavour of Rome has been retained. It is Christ who has been converted to the old paganism.

Again, if the indivual cannot be led by the Spirit then the crowd much less so.

As a notable Roman once said...the crowd is either a pliable servant or a ruthless tyrant. Truth never oringinates in a crowd. This should be evident. Even Catholics lift up certain of their number as "saints" thinking that this performance is beyond the grasp of the masses. Unless you eschew sainthood, you must change your viewpoint as to individual performance and attainment. You sink your own argument here.

 

[Vince]

The Ruckmanites (King James Only) are strong on man-made rules. Yet they have one sex scandal after another from people who obey the rules.

 

[Cornelius]

but I believe God is found WITHIN the Church and CAN be better understood within the context of what we can learn there.

Then I am happy that I am in the church.

Sure you are, you preach "come out of her", speaking of ALL denominations. Has your wife gotten a hold of your keyboard the last week or something???

Lets say I am rethinking my stance and have decided to leave this up to the Lord. LOL.


I cannot force people to leave anything. Come out if you can see the error, is perhaps a better way of putting it. Just leaving because somebody tells you to is silly. I came out when I saw the error and every time I went back , sitting there under such teachings, meant I was submitting to them.

So the reality is in fact that one would hear the voice of the Lord on this matter. Its in how we respond when we hear Him say : Come out of her my people. So: if you hear nothing: stay

But I am free to tell people why I believe that denominations are wrong, and if they "hear" , well good. If not, then that too is in God's will for them.

 

[francisdesales]

Men led "holy" lives by Jupiter as well! The sacred did not begin with Jesus. The flavour of Rome has been retained. It is Christ who has been converted to the old paganism.

"holy lives" compared to the then society, but not holy according to the Way, Jesus Christ. You are confused, as such "holy men" were not holy as the Father.

Again, if the indivual cannot be led by the Spirit then the crowd much less so.

Did I say such illogical statements before, that the individual could not be led by the Spirit???

As a notable Roman once said...the crowd is either a pliable servant or a ruthless tyrant.

Spoken by a truly jaded public servant...

Truth never oringinates in a crowd. This should be evident. Even Catholics lift up certain of their number as "saints" thinking that this performance is beyond the grasp of the masses.

Wrong. The point is the opposite, that ANYONE can achieve the performance of a saint, regardless of their occupation. That is the entire point of patron saints...

Unless you eschew sainthood, you must change your viewpoint as to individual performance and attainment. You sink your own argument here.

You don't even understand my arguments, so how can you make a valid argument contra one way or the other...?

 

[francisdesales]

but I believe God is found WITHIN the Church and CAN be better understood within the context of what we can learn there.

Then I am happy that I am in the church.

yes, we are happy to be in the church... :halo

Sure you are, you preach "come out of her", speaking of ALL denominations. Has your wife gotten a hold of your keyboard the last week or something???

Lets say I am rethinking my stance and have decided to leave this up to the Lord. LOL.

Very well, I was refering to what you wrote last week. Nothing negative can be said about "rethinking my stance".

I cannot force people to leave anything. Come out if you can see the error, is perhaps a better way of putting it. Just leaving because somebody tells you to is silly. I came out when I saw the error and every time I went back , sitting there under such teachings, meant I was submitting to them.

Rather than run from error, wouldn't it be better to work to correct it? I am certain there is much more truth taught then error, so I would think we are to build to make a better church with what we have.

So the reality is in fact that one would hear the voice of the Lord on this matter. Its in how we respond when we hear Him say : Come out of her my people. So: if you hear nothing: stay

Like I admitted before, there is always error we must deal with. Within or without, so to speak. There is error found in organizations, there is error outside of organizations. The "come out of her" refers to worldly ways, I don't think Jesus is worried about leaving organizations, but leaving things that keep us from him, whether part of an organization or not. An individual is called to come out of pride, envy, sloth, lust and so forth, whether they are on a desert island or in a New York City Catholic parish.

But I am free to tell people why I believe that denominations are wrong, and if they "hear" , well good. If not, then that too is in God's will for them.

Of course you are. And perhaps your usually wise advice will be heard by those in error on certain points. As long as Christ is preached, we are doing well.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Men led "holy" lives by Jupiter as well! The sacred did not begin with Jesus. The flavour of Rome has been retained. It is Christ who has been converted to the old paganism.

"holy lives" compared to the then society, but not holy according to the Way, Jesus Christ. You are confused, as such "holy men" were not holy as the Father.

There's the rub! Men cannot tell the difference. Ecclesiastical pomp of old can be repackaged without anyone the wiser...since men follow the labels and take the content for granted. After all, it says church on it, right? If it's written in stone it can't be wrong, right?

Again, if the indivual cannot be led by the Spirit then the crowd much less so.

Did I say such illogical statements before, that the individual could not be led by the Spirit???

Yes you did....you call this the church of "one" when a person gets an individual revelation and is personally led by the Spirit....you are one person using your computer, no?

As a notable Roman once said...the crowd is either a pliable servant or a ruthless tyrant.

Spoken by a truly jaded public servant...

perhaps....but the masses turned on Jesus as well. Maybe that public servant had learned about what is in men! ;-)

Truth never oringinates in a crowd. This should be evident. Even Catholics lift up certain of their number as "saints" thinking that this performance is beyond the grasp of the masses.

Wrong. The point is the opposite, that ANYONE can achieve the performance of a saint, regardless of their occupation. That is the entire point of patron saints...

Patron saints??? Who has ever met a patron saint? We are sticking with reality here, no?

Unless you eschew sainthood, you must change your viewpoint as to individual performance and attainment. You sink your own argument here.

You don't even understand my arguments, so how can you make a valid argument contra one way or the other...?

You claim that God has set up an ecclesiastical system...and speaks through that. Did Jesus come to reform the synagogue system? Or did He come to show us a new and living way, without the outward show of pomp and circumstance. Who is to follow whom? Do you not confuse the religious needs of fallen man with the way of God in Christ? Is the church divided by the patrician class and the plebian...the clergy-laity parallel so loved by the masses? Or are all men brothers with no special ceremonial privileges given to a certain class (clergy)? The clergy heresy has infiltrated the protestant system churches as well. You shall know them by their fruit. So if the Roman system is the mother, then the protestant sects are her offspring. We, rather, are to come to Christ outside the camp of religiosity and bear His reproach. True followers of Christ are hated by all in the religious system. They are accused of following themselves as they serve an invisible Master.

 

[Cornelius]

We, rather, are to come to Christ outside the camp of religiosity and bear His reproach. True followers of Christ are hated by all in the religious system. They are accused of following themselves as they serve an invisible Master. [/color]

Outside the camp Amen.

. They are accused of following themselves as they serve an invisible Master.

That is true indeed. If you refuse a system, you are accused of following yourself.

 

[Cornelius]

Also: I cannot tell people to leave the Harlot because in reality its God who said that. I have no authority on my own to tell anybody to leave

 

[francisdesales]

Also: I cannot tell people to leave the Harlot because in reality its God who said that. I have no authority on my own to tell anybody to leave

Please. God didn't say leave the Church.

Your interpretation tells me to leave the Church. God doesn't say that.

And reading the Bible is so easy, isn't it???

 

[francisdesales]

Men cannot tell the difference. Ecclesiastical pomp of old can be repackaged without anyone the wiser...since men follow the labels and take the content for granted. After all, it says church on it, right? If it's written in stone it can't be wrong, right?[/color]

Men can tell the difference, when properly taught.

Did I say such illogical statements before, that the individual could not be led by the Spirit???

Yes you did....you call this the church of "one" when a person gets an individual revelation and is personally led by the Spirit....you are one person using your computer, no?

You misunderstand what I have so recently said, and in your rush to judgment, you fail to get it.

Of course the individual can be led by the Spirit - to understand God's specific will in one's own life. Whether I should pursue one vocation or another. Whether I should be kind to a belligerent peer. Whether I should apologize for a particular sinful act. But whether the Spirit gives individuals independently separated a universal theological truth that contradicts what the Spirit has already said to the people in the institution, no, this is impossible. Thus, your theology that contradicst what the pillar and foundation teaches is false, such as "Jesus wanted to do away with all institutions" silliness...

That's from you, not the Spirit of God. And as attached to the institution, I can readily identify the fallacy you preach.

perhaps....but the masses turned on Jesus as well. Maybe that public servant had learned about what is in men! ;-)

To include single individuals. What you fail to realize is that you individually have the same make up as any other man, with a propensity to sin. The primary disadvantage of your point of view is that you will not accept correction, since you yield only to yourself and your own interpretations.

The point is the opposite, that ANYONE can achieve the performance of a saint, regardless of their occupation. That is the entire point of patron saints...

Patron saints??? Who has ever met a patron saint? We are sticking with reality here, no?

Don't want to admit you are wrong, do you... Thus, you change the subject. What is clear is that you don't understand the point of following saints and how they lived. Of course we can achieve what they did - that is why they are held up to us as an example, just as Paul held HIMSELF up to the Corinthians.

You claim that God has set up an ecclesiastical system...and speaks through that.

Quite obvious in both Testaments. God's People are just that - a community of fellow believers visibly attached with particular habits and beliefs, all shared, shared enough to have a liturgical, common act of worship.

Did Jesus come to reform the synagogue system? Or did He come to show us a new and living way, without the outward show of pomp and circumstance.

The new way of living is within context of a communal setting. Where does Jesus "do away with" the "institution"?? We have already had this converstation, and you proved nothing but a stubborness to admit you were wrong.

Who is to follow whom?

[/quote][/quote]

We follow God, who has given the Church various forms of shepherds to lead the sheep. By obeying whom God has set up above us, we obey God. Luke 10:16

Sorry if this bothers you, take it up with Jesus...

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Correction comes from the Spirit and the word from God contained in the bible. Only the gullible take things at face value. These are the easy to fool masses.

Christianity is not defined by men. The way of God remains a mystery to the uninvolved and unregenerate. Jesus said that new wine cannot be put into old wineskins. Men have been trying to prove Jesus wrong for many centuries now...sacrilizing what was once pagan and "converting" it for the present purpose. It grieves the Spirit for men to take the gospel and place it in the mausoleums of previous superstitions. FDS would have us trust in robed men in Rome who watch over the empire from an ivory tower. But cursed is he that trusts in man. I dare say that those who follow these present day institutions would have followed whatever intitution in any time frame. A good mass-goer or church-goer would have been a faithful devotee to Jupiter in that time period. Likewise these would have been the pharisees and saducees of their time. Even many of those who have been once awakened to the truth are soon lulled back into the sleep of conformity to the ecclesiastical system. This is a great tragedy. The harlot is certainly that which mixes Christ with the affairs of this world using the means of this world.

But Jesus Christ makes a breach into history. He is so radically different and "other" that no previous religious representation can be hyjacked to represent His uniqueness. He is from heaven. This is the great folly of those who have missed the scandal of Jesus' message. They make it feasible through ecclesiastical means. Or they would have us believe it is thus accomplished. But friendship with the world is emnity with God. The radical message of Jesus Christ is lost when we forget this. It is simply whitewashed and incorporated into the present empire...to the detriment of the truth in every regard. And we love to have it so. May the peace of Christ disturb you! :yes

 

[Cornelius]

Also: I cannot tell people to leave the Harlot because in reality its God who said that. I have no authority on my own to tell anybody to leave

Please. God didn't say leave the Church.

Your interpretation tells me to leave the Church. God doesn't say that.

And reading the Bible is so easy, isn't it???

God never told us to leave the church. It is impossible for Christians to leave the church because they are the church. Scriptures only tells us to leave the Harlot, not the church (which is as I said :impossible)

The only way to leave the church is to fall away from salvation. Now that is something that many will do during the tribulation.

 

[Hawkins]

I think the purpose of religion is to develop a relationship with the Lord. The Pharisees, and I am no expert on the Pharisees, seemed to me to make the mistake of devoting themselves not to developing a relationship with the Lord, but to following a long list of useless rules. If so, are there Christians today that make the same mistake?

I think that following rules itself is not the problem. The problem of the Phaisees is to make use of the rules for their own power social status to the extend that they refuse to recognise any truth not formally from a Pharisees source. They consider that they are the only legitimate source not for the sake of the truth but power and social status and perhaps wealth and such.