Moral beliefs

[ObjMoVa]

And I would love to hear everyone else's feelings as well! Was Roeder justified? Is he wrongly imprisoned for following God's will, which is Godly and Good?

 

[Gary]

That's fine everybody, the example of the abortion doctor works fine too. On May 31, 2009 an american physician named George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder because "preborn children's lives were in imminent danger" said Roeder.

Was the decision to believe in life at conception (a christian ideal) between George and God? No, people who believed religious ideals made the choice for George. I feel that actions such as these require some proof behind them.

I personally believe life begins at conception, but that belief doesn't warrant what happened to George Tiller.

The man that killed him did so because of his own convictions. He wasn't following any commandments that required him to do such a thing.

If you're saying all Christians carry the same convictions as Mr. Roeder, you would be mistaken.
.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Gary, I am absolutely not saying that. But you believe life starts at conception, that's a Christian point of view. Roeder was upholding his extreme belief in Christian ideologies.

I'm glad to see you don't agree with his actions because of his faith, but there is no doubt his actions do stem from the tenants of his faith. I am saying that George Tiller's life was violently affected by Christianity and it's ideologies, weather or not he personally chose to believe in them.

 

[ObjMoVa]

"You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

I completely agree that if a prophet declares something by right of God's will and it doesn't happen, he has spoken presumptuously. What if a prophet said "on the morrow Poseidon will send a might storm to us!" and there is in fact a huge storm the next day. Can we safely assume Poseidon exists?

 

[turnorburn]

i think what you should have said ObjMoVa was; George Tiller's life was violently affected by Satan and his ideologies, not by Jesus Christ, unbelievers always want to attack Jesus, why is that do you suppose, they did the same thing when He walked among us, always trying to find ways to accuse Him of something, anything, because they didn't like the one without sin...

tob

 

[reba]

Some folks are just evil ...Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[reba]

When our Lord was confronted by satan in the desert all Jesus did was respond with scripture.

 

[Vaccine]

I completely agree that if a prophet declares something by right of God's will and it doesn't happen, he has spoken presumptuously. What if a prophet said "on the morrow Poseidon will send a might storm to us!" and there is in fact a huge storm the next day. Can we safely assume Poseidon exists?

Sure, but don't expect to call on poseidon to be saved, he hasn't died and rose again. Biblical prophecies aren't vague like sending a storm either, those verses were very specific about piercing hands and feet. Prophecies serve a purpose, they confirm a true prophet. Predicting a storm is fruitless, nothing will come of assuming poseidon exists. Believing Jesus, an actual historical figure, is who he claimed he was can change things. His tomb is empty. He has something to offer humanity.

 

[Gary]

Gary, I am absolutely not saying that. But you believe life starts at conception, that's a Christian point of view.

It's not just a Christian point of view, it's a fact.

Roeder was upholding his extreme belief in Christian ideologies.

Some people go off the deep end, there's no denying that. As you said, his belief's were extreme. So extreme that he went beyond the tenets of Christianity and took the law into his own hands. In case you didn't know, murdering someone is not the christian thing to do. The bible even teaches that.

Just because someone calls themselves a christian doesn't make it so.

I'm glad to see you don't agree with his actions because of his faith, but there is no doubt his actions do stem from the tenants of his faith. I am saying that George Tiller's life was violently affected by Christianity and it's ideologies, weather or not he personally chose to believe in them.

George Tiller's life was violently affected by someone with a gun.

And I am in no way trying to justify what Roeder did, but how lives do you suppose were violently affected by George Tiller's religious beliefs?
.

 

[evenifigoalone]

And I would love to hear everyone else's feelings as well! Was Roeder justified? Is he wrongly imprisoned for following God's will, which is Godly and Good?

I don't believe it was justified, no. There are much more peaceful ways to go about ending abortion than resorting to terrorism.

Although, have to admit there are some extreme cases where such a thing might be justified. There was this Christian minister named Deitrich Bonhoeffer who attempted to assassinate Hitler. His reasoning was that it was better to do evil than to be evil. Do you believe he was justified?

 

[ObjMoVa]

I believe that Deitrich was justified in wanting to kill Hitler, but not that a God justified them. Namely, if killing Hitler would stop genocide and help end WWII, then yes it is justified for him to want do so. But wanting to do so because it's part of your faith is not a way you can justify action.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I believe that morality exists for reasons that are beneficial to mankind. If one believes that God created morals, believing that He had a logical purpose in creating them (since they are helpful in the overall survival of mankind) makes more sense than Him creating them just so He can boss people around.

Deitrick also wrote on how not many churches in Germany actually opposed Hitler, and tried to get more of them to do so. Not really much point in mentioning that, just thought I would.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And I would love to hear everyone else's feelings as well! Was Roeder justified? Is he wrongly imprisoned for following God's will, which is Godly and Good?

He absolutely was not justified, Christians are commanded to overcome evil with good, not to respond in violence leading to a man's murder.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Gary, I am absolutely not saying that. But you believe life starts at conception, that's a Christian point of view. Roeder was upholding his extreme belief in Christian ideologies.

No, he was holding the extreme belief of a PARTICULAR ideology, and then rejecting other Christian ideologies such as non-violence, patience, love, kindness, overcoming evil with good, etc.

I'm glad to see you don't agree with his actions because of his faith, but there is no doubt his actions do stem from the tenants of his faith.

Almost any ideology no matter how good or true can be misused by strange and ill people. For instance, Darwin surely did not intend to inspire Hitler, but there is now doubt Hitler thought that he was living out some kind of social Darwinism.

I actually accept Evolution so I don't take that is a critique, but merely pointing out a fact that people can hijack all kinds of ideologies and then in the name of that ideology attempt to justify their crimes.

This excludes Jainism of course.

I am saying that George Tiller's life was violently affected by Christianity and it's ideologies, weather or not he personally chose to believe in them.

This appears to be an attempt to tie causation where only correlation can be found. How come everyone doesn't murder because they think abortion is wrong? If this persons Christian beliefs were the cause of it then wouldn't that be the case with far more people? Or is the cause of it rather something in the person?

His wife told authorities that Scott Roeder suffered from mental illness, possibly schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder.

Clearly this was a man who was not of a sound mind, and to ignore that and simply look to his religious ideologies is missing the real point of causation.

 

[Vaccine]

I have yet to be shown compelling evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

CS Lewis once said about justice, a man has to have some idea of what a straight line is in order to call something crooked.
One has to have some idea what the supernatural is, before discussing whether it's compelling or not. You at least have a concept of God, whether or not you choose to believe it's the one described in the bible.

Have you ever studied the 6 day war?

 

[Deborah13]

And I would love to hear everyone else's feelings as well! Was Roeder justified? Is he wrongly imprisoned for following God's will, which is Godly and Good?

Roeder was not justified.

 

[jay55]

ObjMoVa, you might benefit from reading a short book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity.

 

[jasonc]

CS Lewis once said about justice, a man has to have some idea of what a straight line is in order to call something crooked.
One has to have some idea what the supernatural is, before discussing whether it's compelling or not. You at least have a concept of God, whether or not you choose to believe it's the one described in the bible.

Have you ever studied the 6 day war?

what does the yom kippur war and the miracle of it have to do with this? I could say that the counter argure would say that the jews got a miracle by wearing the tephilum on that day and the Heshem answered that call. that is what they say. im curious how that fits?

 

[Vaccine]

But you believe life starts at conception, that's a Christian point of view.

Technically speaking life begins at conception, that is living matter in there.

 

[Fossil Genera]

You at least have a concept of God, whether or not you choose to believe it's the one described in the bible.

That's an interesting statement. In that respect, all we have are concepts that we hope are true. Proving it isn't the point, but one can't simply assert a statement and hope that the assertion itself has purpose without proof. Ergo, we can only believe and hope that the concepts we hold are true, regardless of whether or not we may want to assert them.

If we hold to that rule, it seems to be a perfect system. However, if we do not hold to that rule, we end up making statements that are, at the very least, proven to be concepts regardless whether they may be true or not. However, the fact remains that the assertion does not go beyond the state of being a concept.

"You at least have a concept of God," seems to imply that there is believed to be a higher state of human knowledge of God beyond concepts. Regardless of whether the system that holds these beliefs is true, I do not agree with the implication that human knowledge of God is beyond concepts or ideas.