Morality

[The Light]

For most of my life, I like most I'm sure, have believed that morality originates from God. Lately, my take on that has been shifting. As I consider both scripture and real world observation, I am more inclined to see morality as a human construct. God has the authority to be the arbitor of rules, but typically when God provides rules, it's more about sanctifying a people than it is about giving morals.

Human morals exist outside of and have existed prior to God's declarations as it is possible to be moral and not sanctified, set apart, and called out. In a very general sense, morality has to do with how one gets along and maneovers within a peer group or society and at its core is based on the desire for fairness. Being sanctified has to do with obedience to God.

 

[WIP]

Human morals exist outside of and have existed prior to God's declarations

I think this is where your answer lies. Human morals don't always line up with God's morality. I still hold that God is the originator or author of morality and His version is the true version. Human morality changes on the ebb and flow of man's fickle ideas.

 

[The Light]

My counter would be that God has no morality because God has no peer. Morality is a function of peer relationships within a community or society. That is why the moral rules and protections are typically limited to those accepted as being part of the societal group. We can kill and eat animals, but not people, we can discriminate against those not like us, etc, and not well bad or immoral in our actions because morals originate with us and are subject to our biases. God isnot bound by peer rules, and that's why He can act as, well, God and not be immoral in the process. It's not immoral for God to punish or kill anymore than it would not be considered immoral for us to call an exterminator to kill wasps on our property. Wasps are not our peer and therefore cannot hold us to their moral code anymore than we could hope to hold God to a moral code of our construction.

 

[The Light]

God's law trumps our morality. That is why it's okay for God to kill, command us to do what we would otherwise consider immoral, etc. He's GOD!

 

[Razeontherock]

God's law trumps our morality. That is why it's okay for God to kill, command us to do what we would otherwise consider immoral, etc. He's GOD!

This gets tricky

What I will say is that unbelievers can be moral. I think this is how the term "moral compass" came about? From an unbelieve's standpoint, this is nothing more than Christians claiming that our morality is superior.

That has done no good! It has resulted in atheists searching for "gory stories" in the OT, to play "gotcha" rather than to understand the point.

Particularly now, with the crisis of Faith that is the (very old) RCC scandal reaching a fevered pitch anew, claiming superior morality is only going to blow up in our face.

Instead, how about the truth that God is "a just God and a Savior?" That's a mind-boggling balancing act! Salvation is not based on increasing our morality. Salvation is life from the dead, which has nothing to do with morality.

Proverbs covers morality pretty well, and a small child can understand it. Even as an unbeliever, they can clearly see right from wrong. When we are born again we begin to see deeper Truths in Proverbs ...

 

[Christ_empowered]

secular, worldly morals change over time. Thankfully, God's word is pretty solid, although how it is interpreted and applied varies from place to place, different times, etc. But...some fundamentals always apply in Christianity that don't in the world, such as...

as you do unto the least of these, so you do unto Me...and...the first shall become last and the last shall become first...and...very real limits on sexuality, marriage rules, being a cheerful giver, giving the worker his wages, and ways to deal with sin in fellow Christians' lives....

I was once, many many moons ago, trying for an undergraduate degree in the social sciences at a state college. Nothing against it, but...it wasn't until -after- I became a Christian that I really -got it- and I'm somewhat thankful I'm outta there. Its like this...

in society A, they'll have men with multiple wives and women are severely restricted. in society B, they'll have more equal marriages, more frequent and easy breezy divorce rules, and women do as they please...and then in society C, they'll have different taboos (restrictions) on say, marrying a cousin or a sibling than society D, and...

on and on it goes. From what I see, it looks like morality in the worldly realm, on a good day, keeps a society functioning. One also has to factor in -who- is making the rules (read: you don't have to be a Marxist to see that the elites often call the shots), and that can be OK or eventually prove to be a society and nation's undoing (look at ancient Rome..the top .5% or so of their society pretty much damaged the economy, law, and society...for -everyone-).

point is...God's word is solid. I see in my own life how just -trying- to apply Jesus' teachings and other Scriptural Truths to my life really is building a house on a solid foundation, not one of sand. Maybe people cannot fully graspt it, and a lot of times...well, Jesus' teachings have a distinctly other-worldly, counter-intuitive nature to them, so there's trouble applying it and then there's tension with others when one does apply, but...

pretty much...personally, I think Scriptural morality is superior to worldly morality, especially when you get to things -all- Christians can more or less agree on, like forgiveness, redemption, peace w/ one's enemies, compassion, etc.

 

[stovebolts]

My counter would be that God has no morality because God has no peer. Morality is a function of peer relationships within a community or society. That is why the moral rules and protections are typically limited to those accepted as being part of the societal group. We can kill and eat animals, but not people, we can discriminate against those not like us, etc, and not well bad or immoral in our actions because morals originate with us and are subject to our biases. God isnot bound by peer rules, and that's why He can act as, well, God and not be immoral in the process. It's not immoral for God to punish or kill anymore than it would not be considered immoral for us to call an exterminator to kill wasps on our property. Wasps are not our peer and therefore cannot hold us to their moral code anymore than we could hope to hold God to a moral code of our construction.

I think perhaps, that if one accepts God as Trinity, we find that God has always been a community not at war, but rather in perfect harmony.
It is this perfect harmony which created all that is and having love as His very nature, created us to share in not only that love, but harmony as well.

We all have that divine spark aka spirit of God within us, and it is that spark that guides the heart, and so we can say that Gods morality it part of every human since Adam and Eve. He has not left us, and though we have strayed, he calls us to Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God. We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in the light of God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Hermit]

God is Truth. Morality stems from the truth. As soon as morality becomes under doubt, or judgement, it has missed the truth somehow. The questionability of morality is a human error in understanding its truth. IMHO

 

[Razeontherock]

I'm lifting this out of a great post, to make a very specific point:

I think Scriptural morality is superior to worldly morality, especially when you get to things -all- Christians can more or less agree on, like forgiveness, redemption, peace w/ one's enemies, compassion, etc.

These 4 things you list aren't simply morality, they each have a significant Spiritual component to them. Atheists may use these terms, but they don't have Christ living in them so they mean something different by the same words. Forgiveness is probably the easiest difference to see what I mean ...

 

[Jim Parker]

For most of my life, I like most I'm sure, have believed that morality originates from God. Lately, my take on that has been shifting. As I consider both scripture and real world observation, I am more inclined to see morality as a human construct. God has the authority to be the arbitor of rules, but typically when God provides rules, it's more about sanctifying a people than it is about giving morals.

Human morals exist outside of and have existed prior to God's declarations as it is possible to be moral and not sanctified, set apart, and called out. In a very general sense, morality has to do with how one gets along and maneovers within a peer group or society and at its core is based on the desire for fairness. Being sanctified has to do with obedience to God.

The human view of morality shifts with changes in culture and society.
The first moral system was probably whatever the biggest, baddest, man in the tribe said it was and, in reality, it hasn't changed a whole lot since then.
God's essential command is Love him and lover your neighbor as yourself because love does no wrong to anyone.
Human morality includes rigorously defending abortion, murdering 100 million citizens in half a century who were suspected of not being 100% socialist, ongoing slavery and human trafficking, the drug trade, promotion of hatred for people who don't agree with you, hatred of Jews, and tolerance of every vile behavior you can imagine as well as many I could never have imagined.
HUman "morality" is essentially based on "what's good for ME."

 

[Christ_empowered]

good points, Jim Parker. Throughout the past 2,000 years, Christians have been deceived now and then, off, etc., but...its really the world -without- Christians that's caused the vast majority of the heartache and pain, especially when one looks at the 20th century. with all the new technology (war making, propaganda, etc.), millions lost their lives in international wars, the Holocaust, eugenics caught on for a season, etc., and...

the only -real-, viable solution to the world's problems--both at a social level and at an individual levels--turns out to be a person, Jesus Christ.

 

[gr8grace3]

For most of my life, I like most I'm sure, have believed that morality originates from God. Lately, my take on that has been shifting. As I consider both scripture and real world observation, I am more inclined to see morality as a human construct. God has the authority to be the arbitor of rules, but typically when God provides rules, it's more about sanctifying a people than it is about giving morals.

Human morals exist outside of and have existed prior to God's declarations as it is possible to be moral and not sanctified, set apart, and called out. In a very general sense, morality has to do with how one gets along and maneovers within a peer group or society and at its core is based on the desire for fairness. Being sanctified has to do with obedience to God.

If we go back to Adam. And If Adam lived in Gods plan, remained in fellowship with the Lord and never ate that darn fruit.........There was no need for rules, regulations and perimeters(moral laws.)

Living Spiritually(In Gods plan for our lives) naturally produces morality.

And after the fall, satan counterfeited this truth. And produced religion. satan made a subtle change," Live morally and your naturally spiritual." This is the most devastating deception that has ever been played on mankind. It is satans ace trump.

Morality NEVER produces spirituality.

Living Spiritually(In Gods plan for our lives) will ALWAYS result in living morally.

 

[The Light]

Unfortunately, it seems that my point is being missed or glossed over by the majority of the respondents.

gr8grace3 said:
If we go back to Adam. And If Adam lived in Gods plan, remained in fellowship with the Lord and never ate that darn fruit.........There was no need for rules, regulations and perimeters(moral laws.)

I couldn't disagree more. A couple points. Eating the fruit was a rule violation more than it was a moral issue. We must understand the difference. Morals are about how individuals behave among one another in a social setting. How I deal with my neighbor, my brother, strangers, etc., are moral issues. Humans are social and we tend to value fairness in how we are dealt with in social settings. Adam and Eve could have never eating the fruit and thus never violated the law of God. If they never did that, but they for whatever reason, abused the animals in Eden or if Adam hit or mistreated Eve, he would have been acting immorally.

Morality does not produce righteousness. Instead, it helps create an environment where individulas can live and thrive with lessoned fears of beng mistreated within a society. It doesn't make the society right with God, it just makes that society a safe place for the individual to live.

 

[gr8grace3]

gr8grace3 said:
If we go back to Adam. And If Adam lived in Gods plan, remained in fellowship with the Lord and never ate that darn fruit.........There was no need for rules, regulations and perimeters(moral laws.)

I couldn't disagree more. A couple points. Eating the fruit was a rule violation more than it was a moral issue.

That was my point. Eating the fruit was a rule broken, thus breaking fellowship with the Lord and outside of His Plan for them. If He would have not eaten the fruit and remained in Gods plan(Living Spiritually).........He naturally would have been fair in His social settings, in His dealings with others and his dealing with the animal life. He naturally would be moral. Because living in Gods plan(living spiritually) naturally produces morality. Living outside of Gods plan does not naturally produce morality...........Hence His written word,laws and instruction, for unbelievers and believers(who live outside of His plan for them) to have a morally functioning society/nation so as not to devour ourselves!

 

[for_his_glory]

Then what is your point as I stated in post #8 those things we are to be moral in as how God wants us to treat others. It has everything to do with God's righteousness found in us if we are a child of God and obey His commands. If we are not His own then God will turn us over to a reprobate mind. Many are moral, but yet reject Christ.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[The Light]

gr8grace3 said:
........ If He would have not eaten the fruit and remained in Gods plan(Living Spiritually).........He naturally would have been fair in His social settings, in His dealings with others and his dealing with the animal life. He naturally would be moral. Because living in Gods plan(living spiritually) naturally produces morality. Living outside of Gods plan does not naturally produce morality...........

This goes waaaaaay out on Assumption's Branch. The Genesis creation accounts do NOT make such an assertion.

Again, rules and morals can be related and overlap but in many instances are mutually exclusive. God's dietary laws for Sinai Israel weren't moral. Obeying them didn't make the people any more or less moral. And if we look to Eden, no plan of God is present or discussed. A case can even be made that inequality and the ability to suffer must be present to have immorality.

God, does NOT have to be moral in His dealings with mankind.

 

[gr8grace3]

This goes waaaaaay out on Assumption's Branch.

It absolutely does not. Unless, one wants to claim that there is immorality for those who live in Spirituality(Gods plan for their lives.)

 

[gr8grace3]

God, does NOT have to be moral in His dealings with mankind.

Yes, He does. But it is based upon a omniscient, objective morality. Not a finite, subjective morality.

God is Just and righteous in all His dealings with mankind.

It might be immoral to the finite subjective mind to "kill the killer", But it is very moral to the omniscient, objective mind because He knows the killer, if left alive, will torture and kill many more.

 

[The Light]

What standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do can we apply to God? God is sovereign as not our social peer. His might makes him right as it relates to what he can and can't do for , with, and to us human beings. This is a fact, not opinion. Look at scriptural examples:

1. Lot's wife
- she disobeyed and God killed her turning her to a pillar of salt
- I cannot be moral and kill my child for disobeying my commands

2. Nadab & Abihu (Aaron's sons who offered strange fire)

3. Job
- God allowed preventable torture and suffering to prove a point
- no man could do this and be considered moral