More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[Iconoclast]

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:10
Christ died for His enemies; unbelievers, unregenerate and therefore unsaved people.

All of the elect were unsaved sinners, before He saved them

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Yes every believing one, will be saved

God loves the unsaved people of the world, even though they are His enemies, he sent His Son to die for them, so that they might become saved; reconciled to Him.

God hates the workers of iniquity everyday. He accomplished an actual redemption, not a potential redemption.

JLB

 

[JLB]

All of the elect were unsaved sinners, before He saved them

How does an unsaved sinning elect person become saved?



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

How does an unsaved sinning elect person become saved?



JLB

You have several times outlined Romans 10 for us. This is the most common way. Now Romans 10 does not speak ofthe unseen work of the Spirit of God ,as Jesus explained in Jn.3:3-11. But you have rightly quoted from Romans 10. They hear, believe, openly confess
Romans 10 follows romans 8 and 9...which explain that the elect were children of wrath ,even as others, before God begins to effectually draw them Rom8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

Whom< Them, Whom <Them Whom<them

Jesus had earlier explained the sequence of events in Jn6:37-44.

 

[JLB]

You have several times outlined Romans 10 for us. This is the most common way. Now Romans 10 does not speak of the unseen work of the Spirit of God ,as Jesus explained in Jn.3:3-11. But you have rightly quoted from Romans 10. They hear, believe, openly confess

Ok.

Thank you.

I guess some Calvinist's believe that people are somehow "saved" or born again, prior to hearing and believing in Jesus Christ, which of course is a Christ-less salvation.




JLB

 

[JLB]

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yes. Agreed.

Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Here is how the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul, teaches us how to go about this process of being transformed into the image of His Son.


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

How does an unsaved sinning elect person become saved?



JLB

By Jesus Christ

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok.

Thank you.

I guess some Calvinist's believe that people are somehow "saved" or born again, prior to hearing and believing in Jesus Christ, which of course is a Christ-less salvation.

JLB

I understand your concern. Sometimes a person is trying to explain from God's perspective, that is God knows the end from the beginning. He knows it as certain to come to pass as he has decreed it so.
From that stand point, it does not change.
My understanding is that it is indeed certain to come to pass, however salvation happens in real time.
I get that from all the passages that say...you used to be.....but now are.
I believe 100% in the doctrines of grace.
That being said, I believe we are to actively preach, teach, persuade the unsaved as if it depended upon us.
It does not depend on us, but rather the unseen work of the Spirit. I do think we are not to go beyond scripture.
You will notice sometimes when a Calvinist kind of preacher urges sinners to seek the Lord, to flee from the wrath to come, that some will say; he sounds like an Arminian! he has probably explained the other elements of the ordo salutis already, and is not worried that he is giving a defective message.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes. Agreed.
Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

It is better understood by keeping the whole golden chain intact. The end result is to be conformed to the image of the Son, by all these things.....foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified. The text links it for us.
JLB, Calvin did not link these things, The apostle Paul by the Spirit did! Calvin read these things before we were born. So did all other Christians who got copies of the scripture. These truths are God given.

Here is how the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul, teaches us how to go about this process of being transformed into the image of His Son.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2

Yes...exactly....Once we have the doctrinal base...Romans 1-11....then we are exhorted how to live. Paul explains how God continues to use the scripture to get what we know, from our head, down to our heart.
Paul in most all of his letters gives the indicatives { who and what we are}
then follows the imperatives {in light of who you are In Christ}...now do this!

JLB

 

[JLB]

By Jesus Christ

How can someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ be saved by Him?

Please explain.



The Holy Spirit through Paul asks this question —


And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
Romans 10:14


So JLB and the Holy Spirit would like an answer, with scripture.





JLB

 

[JLB]

It is better understood by keeping the whole golden chain intact. The end result is to be conformed to the image of the Son, by all these things.....foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified. The text links it for us.
JLB, Calvin did not link these things, The apostle Paul by the Spirit did! Calvin read these things before we were born. So did all other Christians who got copies of the scripture. These truths are God given.

Please post the scripture and the things that you claim are linked, so I can understand what you believe.

So far, you agreed that a person must believe in Jesus Christ and confess Him as LORD, to be saved.



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Please post the scripture and the things that you claim are linked, so I can understand what you believe.

So far, you agreed that a person must believe in Jesus Christ and confess Him as LORD, to be saved.



JLB

I posted them in post #203 :
You have several times outlined Romans 10 for us. This is the most common way. Now Romans 10 does not speak ofthe unseen work of the Spirit of God ,as Jesus explained in Jn.3:3-11. But you have rightly quoted from Romans 10. They hear, believe, openly confess
Romans 10 follows romans 8 and 9...which explain that the elect were children of wrath ,even as others, before God begins to effectually draw them Rom8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

Whom< Them, Whom <Them Whom<them

Jesus had earlier explained the sequence of events in Jn6:37-44.

 

[JLB]

I posted them in post #203 :
You have several times outlined Romans 10 for us. This is the most common way. Now Romans 10 does not speak ofthe unseen work of the Spirit of God ,as Jesus explained in Jn.3:3-11. But you have rightly quoted from Romans 10. They hear, believe, openly confess
Romans 10 follows romans 8 and 9...which explain that the elect were children of wrath ,even as others, before God begins to effectually draw them Rom8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

Whom< Them, Whom <Them Whom<them

Jesus had earlier explained the sequence of events in Jn6:37-44.

Ok, so the only scripture you posted is verse 30.

Let's look at some context -

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30


Paul is dealing with the those who are predestined for purpose, not predestined for salvation as He carries this thought into the next chapter.

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

Romans 9 which contextually includes verse 30, is dealing with predestination according to purpose, not predestination for salvation.

Here we see that the "choosing" of the elect, the Jews, was for the purpose of the bloodline lineage of the Messiah.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

Furthermore the scripture specifically states again, this exact phrase -


6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:6-13



The PURPOSE as stated in Romans 8:30, and we see the purpose in Romans 9:5... of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, and again in Romans 9:11... that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
Predestination and or election is about purpose, not salvation. The way of salvation is plainly laid out in Romans 10:9-17
JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok, so the only scripture you posted is verse 30.

No...I posted 29,and 30...Then Jn 6:37-44

Let's look at some context -

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Sorry, No dead wrong! The words all deal with individual salvation.
Justification happens to people., people who are called... they will all be glorified
It looks as if you are trying to ignore what you said you agreed on.

Paul is dealing with the those who are predestined for purpose, not predestined for salvation

No, that is not what it says.
{to those who are the called according to His purpose.}
The part you bolded in yellow says called according to His purpose..Not a purpose for us to do!
His purpose is saving a multitude of sinners. Twisting the context like this is a non starter

as He carries this thought into the next chapter.

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

Romans 9 which contextually includes verse 30, is dealing with predestination according to purpose, not predestination for salvation.

Here we see that the "choosing" of the elect, the Jews, was for the purpose of the bloodline lineage of the Messiah.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

Furthermore the scripture specifically states again, this exact phrase -


6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:6-13

Again, it is God's purpose...not some quest for us.

The PURPOSE as stated in Romans 8:30, and we see the purpose in Romans 9:5... of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, and again in Romans 9:11... that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
Predestination and or election is about purpose, not salvation. The way of salvation is plainly laid out in Romans 10:9-17

no....you will not find truth with the teaching of Leighton Flowers.

JLB

 

[brightfame52]

We know that Christ could not have offered Himself for every man without exception simply because, by His offering, meaning His Death, He hath #1 Sanctified them [those He offered Himself for] once and For All. Heb 10:10

And #2 He hath perfected them forever by His Offering Heb 10:14

14For by one offering[His Death or Blood] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Now, If Christ's death hath perfected forever them that are being sanctified by His death VS10, then, that means everyone without exception hath been perfected before God by the Death of Christ. That word Perfected is the greek word teleioō and means:


to make perfect, complete

a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

2) to complete (perfect)

a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish

a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

1) of the prophecies of the scriptures


GWT With one sacrifice he accomplished the work of setting them apart for God forever.

WNT For by a single offering He has for ever completed the blessing for those whom He is setting free from sin.

WNB For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

What is important to understand, is that this perfecting has been solely accomplished by Christ's ONE OFFERING !

This is why Paul says this Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience[Offering] of one shall many be made righteous.

You see that ? Christ,s one act of obedience or His Offering shall make many righteous, which is connected with that being made perfect by His Offering in Heb 10:14 !

Now the word Perfect in Heb 10:14 is also a Perfect tense passive verb. Again the Perfect tense means:

"an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated "

Now unless every single individual in the world without exception has been Perfected forever by the Offering of Christ, meaning His Death, then He could not have offered Himself in behalf of every single individual in the world without exception, lest The writer of Hebrews has been a false witness. Either the writer of Hebrews is a False witness or those preaching Christ died for all without exception, which all without exception are being saved, are false witnesses !5

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

How can someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ be saved by Him?

I have been explaining that in this entire thread.

 

[JLB]

No...I posted 29,and 30...Then Jn 6:37-44

No is correct.

No you only posted scripture references with no actual scripture, or any context.


As we plainly see, when we look at the context, and study the scriptures we see that election and predestination is for the purpose of God, not salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB



I have been explaining that in this entire thread.

We don’t need your “explanation” that is nothing but your opinion, we are looking for scripture that shows us a person is saved without ever hearing about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

 

[brightfame52]

We don’t need your “explanation” that is nothing but your opinion, we are looking for scripture that shows us a person is saved without ever hearing about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

Why are you asking me to explain then ? You not making sense

How can someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ be saved by Him?

Please explain.

 

[JLB]

Why are you asking me to explain then ? You not making sense

Explain from the scriptures that you claim, a person is saved without ever hearing about Jesus Christ.

As the Spirit says …

And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
Romans 10:14


Hearing and believing are required for salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, No dead wrong! The words all deal with individual salvation.

Sorry bro, but the scripture is clear.


For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:9-11


Isaac was chosen to be the bloodline lineage of the Messiah, not “chosen for salvation” while Esau was chosen for eternal damnation like the teachings of Calvinism claim.



JLB