More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[Iconoclast]

No is correct.

No you only posted scripture references with no actual scripture, or any context.

As we plainly see, when we look at the context, and study the scriptures we see that election and predestination is for the purpose of God, not salvation.

JLB

I thought you were asking sincere questions, but now see you are not.If you hover the cursor over the scripture references , the verses pop up, if you are too lazy to open your bible and look at them. This shows why people do not come to truth. verses are posted, you do not know the verses, but you are too lazy to look them up???
Then when someone lays it out for you, you reject it??? That's just wonderful!

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry bro, but the scripture is clear.

let us once again expose this error.

For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:9-11

Individual election to salvation is in view. Paul is explaining why if Israel as a nation was chosen to receive truth, why was not all Israel saved. So Paul explains individual salvation among that nation. Election is that part of God's saving purpose that he is discussing....not the OT reference to nations.

Isaac was chosen to be the bloodline lineage of the Messiah, not “chosen for salvation” while Esau was chosen for eternal damnation like the teachings of Calvinism claim.

You can hold onto your error.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I thought you were asking sincere questions,

My questions are sincere.

I use scripture and teach from what the scripture and context actually say.

People who teach man’s doctrine have a tendency to state their opinion and then tag their opinion with a scripture reference.

This has been what I have observed over many years of discussion on several different Christian Forums.


It’s a pattern that is obvious.


When you agreed that Romans 10:9-10 was the correct biblical way of salvation, I thought you were different that other Calvinist’s and were sincere about a biblical discussion.



JLB

 

[JLB]

let us once again expose this error.

Individual election to salvation is in view. Paul is explaining why if Israel as a nation was chosen to receive truth, why was not all Israel saved. So Paul explains individual salvation among that nation. Election is that part of God's saving purpose that he is discussing....not the OT reference to nations.

You can hold onto your error.

More opinion with no scripture.

Sorry but all you did was ignore the plain and clear scripture I posted that plainly states the phrase - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)
Romans 9:11

I know you can clearly see the word purpose and election stated in this scripture, yet you ignore it.

WHY?



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Explain from the scriptures that you claim, a person is saved without ever hearing about Jesus Christ.

As the Spirit says …

And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
Romans 10:14


Hearing and believing are required for salvation.



JLB

Ive been explaining everything I believe, you have been opposing it for years now

 

[JLB]

Ive been explaining everything I believe, you have been opposing it for years now

Yes you have been explaining your own opinion for years now, and for years now you have no scripture to validate the “theory” that people are saved without hearing or believing in Jesus Christ our Savior.


Only those who believe are saved.
Only those who hear, can believe.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? Romans 10:14

 

[brightfame52]

Yes you have been explaining your own opinion for years now, and for years now you have no scripture to validate the “theory” that people are saved without hearing or believing in Jesus Christ our Savior.


Only those who believe are saved.
Only those who hear, can believe.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? Romans 10:14

I have given my explanation, you have opposed it for years

 

[brightfame52]

Propitiation 1 Jn 4:10

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation[an appeasing] for our sins.

The word propitiation here as well as 1 Jn 2:2 is the greek word hilasmos and means:

an appeasing, propitiating

Our word appeases defined:

to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe: to appease an angry king.

Christ death has accomplished Propitiation or Peace for all whom Christ died in the behalf of.

Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Or this scripture could very well read without doing no violence at all " and having made propitiation through through the blood of His Cross.

Peace, conciliation, pacific, are the results of Christ blood being shed !

Folks this is an accomplishment of the Death of Christ for all He died for. Now many false teachers appeal to 1 Jn 2:2 as a proof text that Christ died for everyone in the world without exception, even though that is no where stated in the text. John, a believer, a jew, a minister to the circumcision Gal 2:9

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

John therefore a jew and sent to the jews did write to believers who were of the circumcision, meaning ethnic jews, and he stated that Christ had been their or our propitiation our peace for our sins [believing jews] but not for ours only, meaning not for jewish believers only, but He is also the propitiation of believers in the whole world or it could be better understood, of believers amongst all Nations of the Earth, in fulfillment of Gen 12:3

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

You see, all the Families of the Earth means the whole wide world !

And that is what John means by, and not of ours only, but of the whole world.

Anyone whose sins have been propitiated, God is at peace with them through Jesus Christ, they can never perish for their sins, lest somehow Christ's blood becomes a non factor with God.. The believer does not present the Blood of Christ unto the Father, but Christ does ! And Christ forever intercedes in behalf of those He died for because of His Blood ! Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 7:3

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Heb 5:6

As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Now, to whom and for whom is Christ a priest forever ? It's To God the Father, and its for all those He died for Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Everyone Christ died for, He makes Intercession for, and His Blood has satisfied, propitiated the Father forever for them.

 

[JLB]

I have given my explanation, you have opposed it for years

You have never given any explanation of how a person can be saved without ever hearing about and believing in Jesus Christ, because that would be a Christ-less salvation; "Another Gospel"


You just keep doing exactly what you are doing now, which is nothing.


You sir have been caught red handed in promoting a Christ-less gospel that requires no hearing about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, nor any believing in that message.


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ are saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

 

[Corinth77777]

..

You have never given any explanation of how a person can be saved without ever hearing about and believing in Jesus Christ, because that would be a Christ-less salvation; "Another Gospel"


You just keep doing exactly what you are doing now, which is nothing.


You sir have been caught red handed in promoting a Christ-less gospel that requires no hearing about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, nor any believing in that message.


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ are saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

I am really trying to figure out what He is talking about. Just maybe one needs to go to Seminary to learn about Calvinism, is that it?

Salvation in what I've learned is not a one time event..deliverence is ongoing. Its everyday life we receive from God.

We can't do nothing without God and without God we certainly will do nothing.

I'm definitely confused.

 

[brightfame52]

It delivered us from wrath !

1 Thess 1:10

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Who is Paul speaking of here ? Lets look at vs 4-5

4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake

He is writing to the Election of Grace. Those that Christ died for and rose again, and by that, He delivered God's Elect from the Wrath to come !

The wrath here is that vindicative punishment that the wicked, unbelievers will receive as Per Matt 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Matt 25:41

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

We know Christ could not have died for those whom He will yet say these words unto, for He calls them cursed !

Now all for whom Christ did die have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, Christ being made a curse in their room and stead Gal 3:13

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The word for is the prep huper and means:

in behalf of, for the sake of

over, beyond, more than

more, beyond, over

So , for all those He died, God made Him a curse in behalf of them ! And this released them from the curse of the Law. Now the strength of sin being the law, no sin can they ever be condemned for ! He being made a curse for them, was their deliverance, their salvation from the wrath to come 1 Thess 5:9


9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5

 

[brightfame52]

You have never given any explanation of how a person can be saved without ever hearing about and believing in Jesus Christ, because that would be a Christ-less salvation; "Another Gospel"


You just keep doing exactly what you are doing now, which is nothing.


You sir have been caught red handed in promoting a Christ-less gospel that requires no hearing about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, nor any believing in that message.


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ are saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

I Have explained this, you understand it ?

More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

No is correct. No you only posted scripture references with no actual scripture, or any context. As we plainly see, when we look at the context, and study the scriptures we see that election and predestination is for the purpose of God, not salvation. JLB I thought you were asking sincere...

christianforums.net

 

[JLB]

I Have explained this, you understand it ?

More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

No is correct. No you only posted scripture references with no actual scripture, or any context. As we plainly see, when we look at the context, and study the scriptures we see that election and predestination is for the purpose of God, not salvation. JLB I thought you were asking sincere...

christianforums.net

Again, you explained Calvinism.

You explained TULIP.

You have not answered my question using scripture. You just dodge and ignore, while talking in circles.

• Please show us from the scriptures that say we have no need of hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.

I have shown the biblical way of salvation by Quoting verses from Jesus and Paul.

You just keep denying the words of Jesus in favor of the words of Calvinism.


A person must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


How can a person believe in Him if they have never heard of Him?


And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? Romans 10:14





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Again, you explained Calvinism.

You explained TULIP.

You have not answered my question using scripture. You just dodge and ignore, while talking in circles.

• Please show us from the scriptures that say we have no need of hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.

I have shown the biblical way of salvation by Quoting verses from Jesus and Paul.

You just keep denying the words of Jesus in favor of the words of Calvinism.


A person must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


How can a person believe in Him if they have never heard of Him?


And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? Romans 10:14





JLB

You always evade

 

[brightfame52]

It accomplished believers in Himself !

The Death of Christ, it accomplished for all those He died for, for them to become believers in Him, yes that was one of God's Purposes behind it. Jn 3:14-17

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

False teachers have made believing on Christ in these scriptures something man must do or perform as a condition to gain eternal life which is false, but believing on Christ is the purposed result and effect of the Death of Christ for all He died for and are believing [present tense] His death delivers them He died for from unbelief. The Holy Spirit applies the merits of Christ death [give life]upon all He died for, convincing them of sin [an effect of new birth] because by nature, they believe not on Him Jn 16:8-9

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 

[brightfame52]

Gal 6:14 Crucified to the world !

Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Paul makes a Christ Glorifying statement here about the Cross of Christ, One of it's many accomplishments and effects to them He died for. He states "by whom " meaning Christ, His Work, the world is crucified unto me, and I have been crucified unto the world. Notice that this was not by His Freewill, or His act of believing and so forth, but by a Person, Christ and His Cross accomplishment and effect for him

Paul boasted about the powerful effects of Christ crucified, something that is non existent in our day of Apostasy !

Paul is saying that the entire world system in all its Glory, but in opposition to God, is dead or destroyed in it's power to attract him; it has no influence or power over Paul, no appeal to him .And I to the world. Paul is similarly dead to the desires and attractions of the world, for he serves Christ as his new Master ESV Note on Gal 6:14

This is largely due to the God Given Faith each person that Christ died for will receive by from the Holy Spirit at New Birth and this is overcoming Faith of the world 1 Jn 5:4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This Faith is an effect of the Cross to all whom Christ died and imparts His Victory to !

 

[brightfame52]

More on Gal 6:14 What do you Glory in ?

Gal 6:14

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The word Glory here is the greek word kauchaomai:

to glory (whether with reason or without)

2) to glory on account of a thing

3) to glory in a thing

It also is translated boast 2 Cor 7:14 or rejoice Phil 3:3

What do you and i boast in today ? How many of us truly boast or Glory in the Cross of Jesus Christ, His Person and Work and it's saving effects which are everlasting !

What I have observed of many of us is that we Glory not in The Person and Work of Christ and His Saving accomplishments for those He died, but in the flesh. Some of us by the teaching of the freewill of man, others by our ethnicity, particularly ethnic jews. Yes ethnicity is of the flesh, and Paul stated this about having confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3-6

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless

Notice what Paul calls confidence and trust in the flesh in vs 5

#1 Circumcised the eighth day [flesh]

#2 Being of the Tribe of Benjamin [flesh]

#3 Of the people of Israel [flesh see Rom 9:8]

#4 being a hebrew of Hebrews [flesh]

#5 being a pharisee [flesh]

Remember what Jesus told a well established pharisee of highest rank Jn 3:6

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

#6 Religious zeal in vs 6 all religious zeal apart from a Spiritual Revelation of the Gospel is of the flesh !

#7 Good reputation for religion before men, being blameless before men in the sight of men without Gospel revelation is [the flesh]

Paul thought being circumcised as a full blooded jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, was a gain to him, the word gain is the greek word kerdos
and means advantage.


He thought being an ethnic jew gave him advantage before God over other people who were not jewish. He thought it gave him advantage in having a relationship with God and salvation !

Many today think by being a ethnic jew that its an advantage, that it ensures special favor with God, even Salvation favor, this is confidence in the flesh, boasting in the flesh, no way around it !

That word confidence as confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3 also means trust, trusting in the flesh.

Like the Pharisee Lk 18:9, this Pharisee would have trusted in the same things Paul did in Phil 3:5-6 and that's nothing more than trusting in ourselves, idolatry !

What is our Glory today ?

 

[JLB]

You always evade

I always use scripture, and use you the man made doctrine of TULIP.


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel are saved.

 

[brightfame52]

I always use scripture, and use you the man made doctrine of TULIP.


Only those who hear and believe the Gospel are saved.

Tulip Is the Gospel, so if you hear it and dont believe, what does that tell us ?

 

[JLB]

Tulip Is the Gospel, so if you hear it and dont believe, what does that tell us ?

Please show us the scripture that even mentions the man made doctrine that is called TULIP.

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Please show us the scripture that says, those who do not believe are saved.