More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[brightfame52]

You don't see a breakdown? If all men only means all without distinction then it means that in both cases. That means all men without distinction die, but not all men without exception die. However, we know that all men without exception die. Therefore, justification of life came to all men without exception. It has to mean the same in both cases or the analogy breaks down. So, that means that either, all men die and justification of life comes to all men, without exception or without distinction. I say all men die without exception and justification comes to all men without exception. However, just because justification of life comes to all men, it doesn't mean all men are justified because not all men receive Christ. On the other hand, you say all men without distinction die, and receive justification of life. And, because your theology doesn't allow for man to reject Christ you are forced by theology to break down that analogy.
You have to say that all men without exception die, but that justification of life came to all men without distinction. That your theology causes you to break down the analogy shows that there is something wrong in your argument.

No I dont see a breakdown ! I see consistency of Headship results !

 

[brightfame52]

That's not what the passage says. It says the god of this world blinded the minds of the unbelieving. So, it seems they were unbelieving before they were blinded. Also, In verse three he says if his Gospel is hidden it's hidden to those who are perishing. He uses the Greek middle voice for the word translated perishing. This indicates that they were the reason they perishing. This would suggest that they were perishing because they were disbelieving, not because they were blinded.

Yes thats what it says 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden, their minds are blinded resulting in unbelief !

 

[brightfame52]

Ok so if believing and obeying the Gospel, is the result of being saved, then how is a person saved, if not by hearing and believing the Gospel?


Please show us the scripture for your theory.




JLB

A person is saved by the death of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

Another reason for rebirth is that the "new creature" is of God's seed instead of Adam's seed.
The first "us" dies with Christ, and a new creature is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

I can see that as long as it applies to all the elect Christ died for !

 

[JLB]

I was reborn from a Virgin too, God almighty. And have a sinless body.

You have deceived yourself.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

 

[JLB]

A person is saved by the death of Christ !

Please provide a scripture that says we are saved by the death of Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God so loved the world that He did indeed send His Son to die for us.

Whosoever believes is saved.

Whosoever does not believe is not saved.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18



Again, how is a person saved if not by hearing and believing the Gospel?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I can see that as long as it applies to all the elect Christ died for !

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10



Jesus died for the world, that the world through Him might be saved.



For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17






JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Doesn't change anything I stated.

Will you answer the question though?

 

[Butch5]

No I dont see a breakdown ! I see consistency of Headship results !

Don't see it or ignoring it? According to you interpretation death came to all men and justification of life comes to some men. Your interpretation destroys Paul's analogy. That shows you interpretation is in error

 

[Butch5]

Yes thats what it says 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden, their minds are blinded resulting in unbelief !

It's the disbelieving who are blinded. One who is disbelieving is one who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. One who hasn't heard the Gospel hasn't disbelieve it, they havent heard it. Thus, Paul isn't saying those who never heard are blinded.

It's likely that he's referring to Israel when he speaks of those who are blinded. In chapter three he speaks of a veil being over their hearts. Paul also said in Romans that Israel was blinded in part so that the salvation could go to the Gentiles.

So, this passage isn't saying anyone who isn't elect is blinded. That's not even close

 

[brightfame52]

Please provide a scripture that says we are saved by the death of Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God so loved the world that He did indeed send His Son to die for us.

Whosoever believes is saved.

Whosoever does not believe is not saved.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18



Again, how is a person saved if not by hearing and believing the Gospel?



JLB

I already have. I had a whole thread on it This thread is about it.

 

[brightfame52]

Will you answer the question though?

You are evading my point. First let's discuss them. Show me you understand them please. I put too much time into my points just to be ignored.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't see it or ignoring it? According to you interpretation death came to all men and justification of life comes to some men. Your interpretation destroys Paul's analogy. That shows you interpretation is in error

Don't see it.

 

[brightfame52]

It's the disbelieving who are blinded. One who is disbelieving is one who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. One who hasn't heard the Gospel hasn't disbelieve it, they havent heard it. Thus, Paul isn't saying those who never heard are blinded.

It's likely that he's referring to Israel when he speaks of those who are blinded. In chapter three he speaks of a veil being over their hearts. Paul also said in Romans that Israel was blinded in part so that the salvation could go to the Gentiles.

So, this passage isn't saying anyone who isn't elect is blinded. That's not even close

The lost are blinded.

 

[Butch5]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10



Jesus died for the world, that the world through Him might be saved.



For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17






JLB

Good point. Notice also in 2 Tim 2:10 Paul says he endure everything for the elects sake, that they may obtain salvation. This shows that the elect he is referring to is Israel. It also shows that the elect being saved is a possibly. He said, that the elect may be saved, not will be saved. That flies in the face of the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[Butch5]

Don't see it.

Ok. Well, if you don't see something that plain, maybe you shouldn't be teaching others.

 

[Butch5]

The lost are blinded.

Not all the lost. However, I think some Christians are blinded also.

 

[JLB]

I already have. I had a whole thread on it This thread is about it.

Actually you haven’t. You dodged the question and were vague, plus you never gave a scripture that backed up your claim.


Just exactly like you are doing now, in this post.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God so loved the world that He did indeed send His Son to die for us.

Whosoever believes is saved.

Whosoever does not believe is not saved.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemnedalready, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

• he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed

Again, how is a person saved if not by hearing and believing the Gospel?





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Not all the lost. However, I think some Christians are blinded also.

Yes, the Lost are blind, thats part of being lost. Its plain as the nose on your face that the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The word hid is in the perfect tense passive voice, as long as one is in a lost unregenerate state, they are lost and the Gospel is hidden, and they believe not. They cant believe whats being concealed from them.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, the Lost are blind, thats part of being lost. Its plain as the nose on your face that the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The word hid is in the perfect tense passive voice, as long as one is in a lost unregenerate state, they are lost and the Gospel is hidden, and they believe not. They cant believe whats being concealed from them.

It actually says it is hid to those who are perishing. As I pointed out, it is the disbelieving that are blinded. But who did Paul say was blinded?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Rom. 11:25-28 KJV)

Unbelieving Israel was blinded. Again, Paul isn't saying that people who haven't heard the Gospel are blinded.

Also, Paul was speaking of his day. He didn't say future people will be blinded. There are several reasons why your interpretation doesn't fit the Scriptures.

Calvinism is built on proof texts. Passage after passage is taken out of context and used to try to support a preconceived idea.

Everyone is in an unregenerated state.