More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[brightfame52]

I asked a specific question, for you to give explanation to it. The question comes naturally based on what you have said, and it should be obvious to you that if a person has asked a question then they haven't already found the answer in what you have already said.

The reason your explanations aren't recognized as an answer to the question is that they aren't given as an answer to the question. They came before the question was asked. The right thing to do would be to answer the question that is asked of you, and if you feel that former material is sufficient, it is right for you to show how that material forms an answer to the question. And you didn't even answer my last question, which is "why did you respond with defensiveness?". It would benefit you greatly to understand that one.

So what did I say that caused the natural question sir ? Explain to me what I said ?

 

[JLB]

We differ on this.

How so?


Please explain how we differ on this.


Jesus plainly gives us instructions about what to do with a brother who sins.

• Jesus clearly states these words: if your brother sins against you,

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18;15-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you
• If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Notice that Jesus considers the brother who sinned, still a brother; a member of His Church, His body, as desires that the brother who sinned, continues to remain that way.

Notice He doesn’t say they were never saved or never really converted to begin with. He refers to them as a brother, and gives specific instructions on how the Church is to deal with brothers and sisters in Christ who sin.


Only after these steps are followed and the Church has gotten involved, to try to get this brother who sinned to confess his sin, repent of it, in order to continue in fellowship with Christ and the Church, then and only then is he to declared as a heathen and tax collector.


Please explain how “you differ” in this matter.


Do you believe the brother who sinned was never really saved?


Here is some context to help you in this matter.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’







JLB

 

[brightfame52]

You do understand what lost means, right?

What was that definition you used?

Yes, please dont insult me like that sir. The Shepherd in the parable Lk 15 goes out to recover the Lost Sheep, yes or no ?

 

[brightfame52]

Don't you think Jesus died for those who are reborn?
They are the elect, as they have elected to serve God above anything else.

I dont see how in the world you come at me with a question like that based upon all i have posted. Do you understand that Im making the point that Christs death secures unto them He died for their new birth ?

 

[brightfame52]

That's not what it's saying. It says the disbelieving are blinded. Israel was blinded. You're taking the passage out of context to try and prove your doctrine. It doesn't.

Thats exactly what its saying, the Gospel is hidden, and that permanently to them that are in a lost state, resulting in unbelief ! 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[JLB]

Yes, please dont insult me like that sir. The Shepherd in the parable Lk 15 goes out to recover the Lost Sheep, yes or no ?

I asked you a question. That’s not an insult.

Lost means unjust. Separated from Christ.

His sheep who wander away and become lost, are as sinners in need of repentance in order to be reconciled back with God.


The shepherd in this parable about His sheep who become lost, does go out to bring the sheep back.


Here is what that means, because it certainly doesn’t mean Jesus goes out to find lost sheep. Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is teaching His disciples what to do about this matter.



“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
• If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It’s up to the Church to go after a brother who sins to convince him repent, and return to Christ, as Jesus so plainly stated.


Otherwise they will be lost.






JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

So what did I say that caused the natural question sir ? Explain to me what I said ?

You will find that in post #5. It really would do you well to reflect on why you are behaving defensively toward me instead of cooperating with me to explain your views. If it seems clear to you, a third party observer might not be seeing things so clearly and they need to ask for clarification. I have asked you to provide that clarification. There really is no reason to make it into an argument spanning several pages and going back-and-forth over a number of days.

 

[brightfame52]

I asked you a question. That’s not an insult.

Lost means unjust. Separated from Christ.

His sheep who wander away and become lost, are as sinners in need of repentance in order to be reconciled back with God.


The shepherd in this parable about His sheep who become lost, does go out to bring the sheep back.


Here is what that means, because it certainly doesn’t mean Jesus goes out to find lost sheep. Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is teaching His disciples what to do about this matter.



“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
• If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It’s up to the Church to go after a brother who sins to convince him repent, and return to Christ, as Jesus so plainly stated.


Otherwise they will be lost.






JLB

I believe lost means what the definition means. How is it being Illustrated in the parable in Lk 15 ? Please give me a break. The main point is that the Shepherd seeks and find His Lost Sheep.

 

[brightfame52]

You will find that in post #5. It really would do you well to reflect on why you are behaving defensively toward me instead of cooperating with me to explain your views. If it seems clear to you, a third party observer might not be seeing things so clearly and they need to ask for clarification. I have asked you to provide that clarification. There really is no reason to make it into an argument spanning several pages and going back-and-forth over a number of days.

Im explaining my views, you are asking me to explain your views. Each post I bring to the table I explain it, but you want to divert from that, go gather all your verses and ask me to take time to explain them, when you dont explain your views as I have already done. Im doing explaining for me and then for you !

 

[Butch5]

Christ death effects subjective reconciliation also !

2 Cor 5:18-21

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In vs 20, Paul is giving [ In Christ stead or behalf] as though Christ was speaking Himself, a imperative or a command, to who , those already reconciled to God objectively vs 18, it is now time for them to be ye reconciled subjectively by the word of reconciliation, which is the Gospel.

You see, The reconciliation in the death of Christ did more than Just give objective standing of favor with God, more than just legal standing of no condemnation, but it also ensured or effects our subjective reconciliation unto God, that is we will be saved experimentally as well.

This blessed Truth is again stated by the Apostle here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Being saved here is what answers to or corresponds with the "be ye reconciled" in vs 20 of 2 Cor 5:20

In the greek,"be ye reconciled" is a aorist passive imperative, so the subjects are being acted upon, they are actually being reconciled by decree of imperative. They are being saved from the power of sin, and being brought to God subjectively 1 Pet 2:25

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned or being converted unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word for returned here is the greek word epistrepho:

to turn to

to the worship of the true God

to cause to return, to bring back

to the love and obedience of God

to the love for the children

to love wisdom and righteousness

Also peter uses it in the passive voice, they are being acted upon, being caused to return to the Bishop of their souls.

Thats the subjective reconciliation that's effected in the Death of Christ for all He died for His death actually brings us to God into fellowship with Him.

Did you notice Paul said God was reconciling the world through Christ?

 

[Butch5]

Thats exactly what its saying, the Gospel is hidden, and that permanently to them that are in a lost state, resulting in unbelief ! 2 Cor 4:3-4

You can keep repeating that, but as I've pointed out several times now and anyone can read for themselves, the passage says the disbelieving were blinded. It says nothing of those who haven't heard. And, as pointed out Paul tells us that Israel was blinded in part, unbelieving Israel, so that salvation would go to the Gentiles. He also said in chapter three when Moses is read the veil has not been taken away. If the veil has not been taken away then they were still blinded.

As I've pointed out, you're taking Scripture out of context to make it fit your theology. When we look at the passages in context we see that they are not saying what you claim. I would suggest rethinking your beliefs. You don't want to mislead anyone especially in the word of God.

 

[JLB]

Did you notice Paul said God was reconciling the world through Christ?

No, I don’t think he did.

I believe when he see’s… God was reconciling the world through Christ, what he really perceives is… God was reconciling the elect through Christ.


That is how indoctrination, (a stronghold), works.

It causes the person’s mind to “exalt itself against the knowledge of God”.


For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

• for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God

The knowledge from God in the scriptures is meant to bring our mind into alignment with God’s will and purpose for us; that we may develop our mind unto the mind of Christ.

The enemy must stop this vital operation of the renewing of the mind, because that is how we are transformed into the image of His Son.

• and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

The renewed mind recognizes and embraces the leading of the Spirit, from within our spirit, and responds in obedience.


If the Enemy doesn’t stop this operation of renewing the mind, he will have to deal with a Christian who operates like Jesus operated, while He walked this earth.


It didn’t go well for him then, and doesn’t well for him now, when he encounters those who are led by the Spirit.



For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14







JLB

 

[Butch5]

No, I don’t think he did.

I believe when he see’s… God was reconciling the world through Christ, what he really perceives is… God was reconciling the elect through Christ.


That is how indoctrination, (a stronghold), works.

It causes the person’s mind to “exalt itself against the knowledge of God”.


For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

• for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God

The knowledge from God in the scriptures is meant to bring our mind into alignment with God’s will and purpose for us; that we may develop our mind unto the mind of Christ.

The enemy must stop this vital operation of the renewing of the mind, because that is how we are transformed into the image of His Son.

• and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

The renewed mind recognizes and embraces the leading of the Spirit, from within our spirit, and responds in obedience.


If the Enemy doesn’t stop this operation of renewing the mind, he will have to deal with a Christian who operates like Jesus operated, while He walked this earth.


It didn’t go well for him then, and doesn’t well for him now, when he encounters those who are led by the Spirit.



For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14







JLB

Well said!

This is another reason why I don't like the Penal Atonement model of the Atonement. It's so focused on forensic justice that it misses much of the Atonement itself. It's all about justice.

Because Calvinists see as Christ only benefitting the elect it forces them to wrongly interpret Scripture as in this case. Paul clearly said that God was reconciling the world but they have to change that to the elect. It always amazes me that people don't see this. If one's theology causes one to change what Scripture says one's theology is wrong.

 

[Serving Zion]

Im explaining my views, you are asking me to explain your views.

Do you not see this as a problem, if we are not sharing the same views? I do not expect to find that. I am only serving you in your role, by giving you an opportunity to answer the questions that come to mind.

Each post I bring to the table I explain it, but you want to divert from that

Hang on, now we are getting somewhere! .. this might lead to the answer to my question of why you are being so defensive.

Can you explain why you think I am trying to divert your post?

, go gather all your verses and ask me to take time to explain them, when you dont explain your views as I have already done.

Actually I did explain my views, and if my explanation wasn't sufficient then you should have asked for clarification. I am happy to give clarification of the explanation I have already given, if you can ask me a question that shows why my explanation needs clarifying. That is what I have done for you in post #5.

Im doing explaining for me and then for you !

It shouldn't be that way. If you would simply answer questions instead of fighting the person who comes to you with the question then there'd be civil and progressive dialogue instead. No need to shed blood and accuse each other of not listening.

 

[brightfame52]

Did you notice Paul said God was reconciling the world through Christ?

Did I notice ? I just quoted it. Do you understand the post ?

 

[brightfame52]

Do you not see this as a problem, if we are not sharing the same views? I do not expect to find that. I am only serving you in your role, by giving you an opportunity to answer the questions that come to mind.

Hang on, now we are getting somewhere! .. this might lead to the answer to my question of why you are being so defensive.

Can you explain why you think I am trying to divert your post?


Actually I did explain my views, and if my explanation wasn't sufficient then you should have asked for clarification. I am happy to give clarification of the explanation I have already given, if you can ask me a question that shows why my explanation needs clarifying. That is what I have done for you in post #5.


It shouldn't be that way. If you would simply answer questions instead of fighting the person who comes to you with the question then there'd be civil and progressive dialogue instead. No need to shed blood and accuse each other of not listening.

Do you understand the post ? Lets talk about what I posted, after all thats why I posted it. When I post something thats an Q on what I want to discuss, doesnt that make sense ?

 

[Butch5]

Did I notice ? I just quoted it. Do you understand the post ?

I realize you quoted it. It says God was reconciling the world to Himself. It didn't say He was reconciling the elect to Himself. How did He reconcile the world to Himslef yet not all people are saved?

 

[Hopeful]

How so?

Please explain how we differ on this.
Jesus plainly gives us instructions about what to do with a brother who sins.

• Jesus clearly states these words: if your brother sins against you,

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18;15-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you
• If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Notice that Jesus considers the brother who sinned, still a brother; a member of His Church, His body, as desires that the brother who sinned, continues to remain that way.
Notice He doesn’t say they were never saved or never really converted to begin with. He refers to them as a brother, and gives specific instructions on how the Church is to deal with brothers and sisters in Christ who sin.
Only after these steps are followed and the Church has gotten involved, to try to get this brother who sinned to confess his sin, repent of it, in order to continue in fellowship with Christ and the Church, then and only then is he to declared as a heathen and tax collecter.
Please explain how “you differ” in this matter.
Do you believe the brother who sinned was never really saved?
Here is some context to help you in this matter.
Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!
JLB

Jesus was addressing OT men who still walked in the flesh.
Until they could be baptized into Christ, killing the old man and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, they couldn't walk after the Spirit, in the light, all the time.
They could still offend one another whereas in the NT we don't.
The OT men were not our "brothers" in Christ, as they still had a different father.
You have based your belief on a misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8.

 

[Hopeful]

I dont see how in the world you come at me with a question like that based upon all i have posted. Do you understand that Im making the point that Christs death secures unto them He died for their new birth ?

Yes, I understand that.
Perhaps you should reiterate what point you are trying to make, in a short sentence or two?
Get us back to the basic theme?

 

[brightfame52]

I realize you quoted it. It says God was reconciling the world to Himself. It didn't say He was reconciling the elect to Himself. How did He reconcile the world to Himslef yet not all people are saved?

I know what it says, and understand what it means, apparently you dont, and you not listening to me.