[_ Old Earth _] More on the role of Information

[brother Paul]

This is like Psalm 51:5 which reads "Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." This is a passage often quoted to support David allegedly being born condemnable as if he was judgment worthy at birth but all it really speaks to is the iniquity of his parents. It tells us his conception was the result of their lust.

 

[Barbarian]

And it is a paraphrase of Exodus 20:5, 6 which says “you shall not bow down unto them, nor serve them (referring to false idols); for I, YHVH thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.”

The Hebrew word ‘avon used here means the perversity or depravity not punishment due. It refers to the modeling of the parents as effectual in the upbringing of children and does not speak to a state of being at their birth. Secondly there is a qualifier. This only is the case with those generations that never come to love Him and obey Him (they in fact hate Him).

It doesn't refer to the fathers, but to the third and forth generation. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.

It falls on the descendants of those who hate Him.

 

[brother Paul]

Yes that depravity and such carry over from generation to generation. My grandfather was an alcoholic, my father followed in his footsteps as did I (until after coming to Christ). I was not born judged as guilty for my grandfather's sin, but it certainly passed down. The sin was visited upon each generation but not condemnation (we all sinned our own sins). Now of my four children three of them are not alcoholics, but one is what I would consider an alcoholic (drinks far too much far too often), but none of them hate God or worship idols so I still have hope for her.

 

[brother Paul]

It falls on the descendants of those who hate Him.

So are you saying only the children of those who hate Him have original sin as understood judicially (born condemned because Adam sinned)? The sins will be continued in the subsequent generations not the punishment.

 

[brother Paul]

“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 18:3). Does Jesus want us to convert and become like lawless, depraved children, who are destined for hell?

“Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Mt. 19:14). Again, think about what this verse would mean if children inherit the judgment. The kingdom of heaven would belong to those separated from God.

If God hates sin (Ps. 45:7), and cannot look at sin (Isa. 59:2), and is the giver of the spirit, then a newborn baby’s soul cannot be sinful.

The Bible also says

Job 10:8, “Your hands shaped me and made me.”

In Psalm 139, he wrote, “For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.”

Psalm 199:3, “Know ye that the Lord is God; it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk in it.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Zech.12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.

So the scriptures establish that it is God who makes, creates, the spirit in a person when they are formed. Are we saying that God creates dead spirits (eternally separated by sin) in people? Are condemned souls what He forms in unborn infants? Evil, despicable people, guilty and judged who have not yet sinned?

How is it that children are called the heritage of the Lord? How is the man blessed whose quiver is full??? He is blessed by pro-creating little devils? The living dead are the heritage of the Lord? Paul says that before the Law, there is no transgression and 1 John 3:4 tells us that “sin” is a transgression of the law. Now granted since Adam we are all born with a nature that will sin…and all have sinned…but we are not judged worthy of spiritual death until WE sin…the Bible is clear in the law and the prophets that God does not hold the sins of the fathers against the children (is not Adam one of our fathers?). No we do not inherit condemnation (pay for the guilt of Adam) we inherit physical death, but spiritual death is not made sure until the judgment. If we die without our names being written in the book of life and we are thrown into the lake of fire…THIS is the SECOND death…

The notion of being born “spiritually dead” is not taking into account the whole council of God (”Total” depravity, interpreted as absolute incapability, must either eliminate, ignore, or re-interpret well over 50 Biblical passages)…not a good idea IMO…

 

[Barbarian]

I just think it's best to accept His word as it is. Whatever the nature of original sin might be, we have it and it was occasioned by the disobedience of our first parents.

Let's get back to the subject:

Fitness as Informational Fit: The Communication Channel between the Evolving Population and Its Environment
Social Sciences Network
Abstract:

Interactions among populations and their environment can be represented as a communication channel between the evolving organism and its environment. The more information is communicated over this channel, the more uncertainty is reduced, and the higher the attainable fitness. Following this intuitive notion, the article generalizes recent novel findings and presents the first complete decomposition of fitness in terms of information theory. Optimal population growth quantifies the amount of structure in the updated population that unequivocally comes from the environment through the mutual information between both. Turning this finding around, fitness can be optimized by ensuring that not more new information is included in the population distribution than is justified by environmental information. As such, the article goes beyond an ontological re-conceptualizations of fitness in terms of information theory, but also shows a way to optimize fitness. Additional side information about environmental dynamics can be used to increase fitness further, just like technological communication channels are enhanced by refining information about the source. This establishes a formal link between evolutionary ecology and long-standing engineering efforts in the optimization of communication channels. Two empirical applications to practical examples reveal inherent trade-offs among the involved information quantities during fitness optimization.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2619963

(my emphasis)

 

[brother Paul]

Nice article....well done...information adds to order....