Murder

[Mysteryman]

Homosexuality in Christianity

so then using your logic then being gay is ok as its legal.

in all 50 its legal for the gay men to be together, but not married. but the law doesnt stop gays from cohabiting at all nor the act of gay sex.not even in texas

abortion is murder.if you dont think so look at the ot punishment for it a woman who has a stillborn(misscarriage) to due to being hit.

you are being uneven in your judgement , gays ok to be forgiven but not murderers. you have just discussed pauline doctrine. Paul murdered saints did he not, yet he is heaven.

Hi Jasoncran

Would you please refrain from saying my logic such and such, when you have no idea what I have been saying in this thread - please ? !

None of this has anything do with the law of the land. It has everything to do with God and how he perceives sin.

Paul did not murder anyone ! And I have read within one of your posts somewhere (possibly in this thread) , where you believe that King David murdered Uriah, which again is not true. People just don't understand the gravity of what murder is, and they jump the gun (pun) in assuming that they do understand.

I have studied the OT thouroughly when it comes to this subject. And I know very well what the law states about one who causes a woman to loose their unborn. The penalty was not death, but a monitary account. The unborn was called the "fruit of the womb". Again this is a deep subject and should not be taken lighlty. Even in Hosea 9:10 - 17 gives some insight. But this is not the fullness of this subject, for sure !

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

david didnt plot to kill uriah?
i'm in the national guard, if I tell my soldier in a time of war to kill an unarmed civilian and he or she does it. i will get charged with the conspiracy to commit murder. and the soldier will get the charged with the act. both will have innocent blood on our hands.

now then this is relavant as you have said that gays can be forgiven but not murderers. so then what about king massaneh?

i guess the leader of a group isnt responsible for his men actions good or bad. so david didnt commit murder himself, but in his heart he did.

same thing. one can be guilty of it without even performing the act.

you brought this up and i'm inquiring the reasoning how one can say that murderers cant be forgiven.

i dont see jesus saying that.

2 samuel 12:9 kjv

Wherefore thou hast despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed the Uriah the Hittite with the sword,and taken his wife to be thy wife, and slain him by the sword of the children of Ammon


seems to be clear that he did it. unless the lord is wrong. he ordered knowing that would happen when he told Joab to put Uriah in the heat of the battle and withdrawal all help from him. so he has the blood of Uriah on his hands.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

one last thing, that fruit of the womb in the kjv is bad traslation, it means in the context of the word to have a premature baby. read on down and if the baby lives he pays a fine, but if it dies then the man is put do death

stress on a woman can cause a premature birth, my wife was put under alot of stress yrs before i was married to her, and she miscarried in the shower. the child was born and died.

for the sake of peace i will bow out.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

david didnt plot to kill uriah?
i'm in the national guard, if I tell my soldier in a time of war to kill an unarmed civilian and he or she does it. i will get charged with the conspiracy to commit murder. and the soldier will get the charged with the act. both will have innocent blood on our hands.

now then this is relavant as you have said that gays can be forgiven but not murderers. so then what about king massaneh?

i guess the leader of a group isnt responsible for his men actions good or bad. so david didnt commit murder himself, but in his heart he did.

same thing. one can be guilty of it without even performing the act.

you brought this up and i'm inquiring the reasoning how one can say that murderers cant be forgiven.

i dont see jesus saying that.

2 samuel 12:9 kjv

Wherefore thou hast despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed the Uriah the Hittite with the sword,and taken his wife to be thy wife, and slain him by the sword of the children of Ammon


seems to be clear that he did it. unless the lord is wrong. he ordered knowing that would happen when he told Joab to put Uriah in the heat of the battle and withdrawal all help from him. so he has the blood of Uriah on his hands.

Hi Jasoncran

Anyone can commit a sin in their hearts. That is why we are not even to covet. But sin is just not sin on all levels of sin being equal.

All unrigheousness is sin. So if one covets thy neighbor's wife, he is sinning. But then , if he goes out and commits adultery with her, the sin is greater. It takes two to tango, right ? Otherwise it would be rape. And we are not dealing with this .

The same with murder. One can commit murder within their mind. But it is not the actual act of murdering somone, is it ?

King David wanted Uriah killed, yes, in battle, yes. But King David did not murder him !

Have you ever looked up this word "killed" in this verse 2 samuel 12:9 ? It is not the word "murderer" ! It is the Hebrew word - "nakah". Murderer is in the Hebrew - "ratsach"

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill < This word "kill" is "ratsach" to murder

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

yes, i know that. but he did order his murder and that is in the verse. read it agian.

one can be guilty of murder by simply paying one to do it for you. common sense. its called conspiracy to commit murder, but david did more than that.

i am a leader of troops and as such i can do the same. tell a soldier to go somewhere and not support him.in essence by my actions he dies, i am guilty of his blood.

david was in charge of the army was he not? he gave orders that were executed out by joab. joab was acting on his behalf. therefore he was just as guilty of murder as joab was.

that is in verse that i provided.

The lord described to david how he did it, as if david didnt know. he was without excuse!
why was the word murder not used in that sentence if he ordered him killed lawfully in the lord eyes.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

yes, i know that. but he did order his murder and that is in the verse. read it agian.

one can be guilty of murder by simply paying one to do it for you. common sense. its called conspiracy to commit murder, but david did more than that.

i am a leader of troops and as such i can do the same. tell a soldier to go somewhere and not support him.in essence by my actions he dies, i am guilty of his blood.

david was in charge of the army was he not? he gave orders that were executed out by joab. joab was acting on his behalf. therefore he was just as guilty of murder as joab was.

that is in verse that i provided.

The lord described to david how he did it, as if david didnt know. he was without excuse!
why was the word murder not used in that sentence if he ordered him killed lawfully in the lord eyes.

Hi Jason

Uriah was killed in a war, by the enemy. Many other soldiers died as well in that battle. We also know that some didn't die and were witnesses of the battle. We know the intent of King David. But to declare that King David murdered Uraih is just not true. I told you this was a touchy subject !

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

ever heard of friendly fire?

one can deliberately refuse to help your buddy in combat. that is what david did. you arent stupid.

come on. he wanted to cover this up. make it look like uriah died in combat so that the people would still see that the king was just and right in taking bathsheeba as wife. that's called coverup.

it still murder, he set him up to die, the men who died were enemy combatants. but if joab was there to save uriah would he be dead probalby not.

that is how david did it.

i love the king david but he was a murderer who repented. he paid for that sin in that the sword never departed from his household. he lost absalom and almost the throne its self.he planted that seed and had to reap it.

soldiers have plotted in combat to kill certain leaders at times. either by directly shooting them or when crap hits the fan running away and letting the enemy do it for them. either way its murder.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Homosexuality in Christianity

ever heard of friendly fire?

one can deliberately refuse to help your buddy in combat. that is what david did. you arent stupid.

come on. he wanted to cover this up. make it look like uriah died in combat so that the people would still see that the king was just and right in taking bathsheeba as wife. that's called coverup.

it still murder, he set him up to die, the men who died were enemy combatants. but if joab was there to save uriah would he be dead probalby not.

that is how david did it.

i love the king david but he was a murderer who repented. he paid for that sin in that the sword never departed from his household. he lost absalom and almost the throne its self.he planted that seed and had to reap it.

soldiers have plotted in combat to kill certain leaders at times. either by directly shooting them or when crap hits the fan running away and letting the enemy do it for them. either way its murder.

Hi Jason

In II Samuel 11:15 & 16 we see that Joab did not do as King David said. He put Uriah in the hottest battle, but he put him there with valiant men, and himself < verse 17. Then read on into verse 19 & 20 , because Joab was trying to be sure that King David was not upset with him. Then read the words of King David - verse 25 - "for the sword devoureth one as well as another". Then King David told Joab to increase the battle and overthrow the city.

 

[jasoncran]

i will read those verses then, what about that prophetic word from nathan? was that wrong. or is the lord not ominpresent and omniscient.

 

[jasoncran]

those vailent men were of the enemies not friendlies. and he(joab)wasnt with him.that messenger was told to lie to the king. and he did. joab knew where the enemy was strong at and place uriah there alone to die.

that is where you read that wrong.

why would the lord call david guilty of murder if he didnt do it.

 

[Mysteryman]

those vailent men were of the enemies not friendlies. and he(joab)wasnt with him.that messenger was told to lie to the king. and he did. joab knew where the enemy was strong at and place uriah there alone to die.

that is where you read that wrong.

why would the lord call david guilty of murder if he didnt do it.

Hi Jason

I have already pointed out to you that God through Nathan never said that King David murdered anyone. It is not the Hebrew Word for murderer !

And I can see that you are not reading these verses correctly.

In verse 17 it tells us that Joab fought against those of the city. Joab was not even suppose to be a part of the battle as the letter from King David indicated. Joab disobeyed King David, and sent Uriah with valiant men and himself against the city. Joab's intent was to win the battle. But that was not the intent of King David. The only intent of King David was for Joab to send Uriah into the hottest battle and to retire from him. This was in the letter. But Joab didn't retire from the battle, in fact the opposite. He joined in the battle.

 

[jasoncran]

then why tell him that he had him killed? do we in our discussion say always that hitler murdered the jews or do we say that he had them killed also.

why would have nathan mention uriah in that manner if it wasnt murder then, if it was the act of adultery only then uriah dying in battle wouldnt have to have been ordered.

think about it why plot to murder that man at all if you could just wait for some luck to get him killed.

isnt killing a man in cold blood and for no reason murder or just killing?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Jason: "why would have nathan mention uriah in that manner if it wasnt murder then, if it was the act of adultery only then uriah dying in battle wouldnt have to have been ordered."

Hi Jason

You keep asking the same question, which has been answered already. If it was murder, then Nathan would have used the Hebrew word "ratsach", but that is not the Hebrew word here. It is the Hebrew word - "nakah", which means to kill , not murder.

David wanted Uriah to die in battle. There is no disagreement with this whatsoever. However, as in all battles, there are no guarantee's that one would die. And we can see that Joab would have nothing to do with the will of King David. As one of his head soldier's, he order him to be put into the hottest battle.

We know that Bathsheba became pregnant by this act of adultery. And that God allow the child to die.

King David was set upon a pedestal for other nations to observe how God works with the Nation of Israel. This is why it states by Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:14 that this deed has given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.

We also need to look at how God protected David from Saul, as this was also the words of Nathan, and also how God gave David the house of Saul, and his wives, and God would have even given him more than this. God took all his wives away from David, and did so openly and gave them to his neighbour, and they will lie with thy wives in thy sight, and the sight of others. The worst of all of this was when the Lord struck down the child and the child became very sick. Then died.

All of this was an open example unto the enemies of God, as well as to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, that God judgement is righteous. Lets not forget, that Joab knew that what David had done was wrong. This secret and the secret of the act of adultery was not a secret unto God. God exposed the secrets of David and his sins.

If this had been murder, God would have struck down David dead. There would not have been any mercy whatsoever. Because murder is not a forgivable sin, when it is manifested beyond just thinking about it. King David was in the highest position possible, as he was not only King over Israel, but of Judah as well.

This is why John wrote in I John 3:15 that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them. King David does have eternal life abiding in him. His resurrection is still future, but eminent.

 

[jasoncran]

murder isnt forgivable really! didnt moses run from pharoah for commiting murder.

or what about those that were persecuting the church.ie paul, did he just slap them and say dont be a christian, if i recall that he was there when stephen was murdered.

what sin did jesus was the only unforgivable one, and it wasnt murder.

you forget that the king manaseh repented and he was a mass murderer.

you also seem to forget that the person who raped and killed the sister of corey tin boon was forgiven by her and he also was executed for his war crimes. He repented and died a christian.

if God strikes murderers dead like that, then why even witness to those that have commited such acts. odd when the Lord has said all manner of sin may be forgiven but not a certain one.

 

[Mysteryman]

murder isnt forgivable really! didnt moses run from pharoah for commiting murder.

or what about those that were persecuting the church.ie paul, did he just slap them and say dont be a christian, if i recall that he was there when stephen was murdered.

what sin did jesus was the only unforgivable one, and it wasnt murder.

you forget that the king manaseh repented and he was a mass murderer.

you also seem to forget that the person who raped and killed the sister of corey tin boon was forgiven by her and he also was executed for his war crimes. He repented and died a christian.

if God strikes murderers dead like that, then why even witness to those that have commited such acts. odd when the Lord has said all manner of sin may be forgiven but not a certain one.

Hi Jason

I do not say this with any disrespect. But I have noticed that within this conversation you use the word "murder" as if it is just another word with no significance. Its like you are saying that sneezing is murder, drinking water is murder, watching TV is murder, riding your motorcycle and splat and a bug dies, and it is murder. What constitutes murder in your eyes ?

Moses killed the enemy, he didn't murder anyone. In fact this guy was killing Jews , and Jews were slaves and considered worthless and replaceable. Moses did this after he realized that the Jews were his people. He closed his eyes to this for the most part for many years. But once his eyes were open, and he noticed that his people were mere slaves and being slaughtered within slavery. He became a changed man.

Paul (who was called Saul) consented unto Stephen's death. Paul didn't murder anyone ! The law of the land killed Stephen .

King David didn't murder anyone !

They put people to death right here in this country for crimes worthy of death. Is it murder ?

 

[Sinthesis]

: "why would have nathan mention uriah in that manner if it wasnt murder then, if it was the act of adultery only then uriah dying in battle wouldnt have to have been ordered."

Hi Jason

You keep asking the same question, which has been answered already. If it was murder, then Nathan would have used the Hebrew word "ratsach", but that is not the Hebrew word here. It is the Hebrew word - "nakah", which means to kill , not murder.

If you apply this false and twisted logic elsewhere, then you must proclaim that Cain did not murder Able.

However, in comparing these two stories you should be able to understand why the particular words chosen by Nathan were used.

 

[Mysteryman]

: "why would have nathan mention uriah in that manner if it wasnt murder then, if it was the act of adultery only then uriah dying in battle wouldnt have to have been ordered."

Hi Jason

You keep asking the same question, which has been answered already. If it was murder, then Nathan would have used the Hebrew word "ratsach", but that is not the Hebrew word here. It is the Hebrew word - "nakah", which means to kill , not murder.

If you apply this false and twisted logic elsewhere, then you must proclaim that Cain did not murder Able.

However, in comparing these two stories you should be able to understand why the particular words chosen by Nathan were used.

The word "slew" in Genesis 4:8 is the Hebrew word - "harag" -1. murder or murderer, 2. out of (by) one's hand

The word "slay" or "slew", does not always mean murder, but it does mean to kill with (by) one's hand. It depends on how the word is used within it context.

Even the Lord "slew" in Exodus 13:15

But in Genesis 4:7 we read the context that sin was the reason

 

[jasoncran]

lol, so it aint murder then i we able to kill children in womb according to God eyes. By whom is the standard for what sin is or isn't. man or the Lord

i call it like i see it.

abortion is murder, david plotting and order the murder of uriah.

fratricide, define that.

if its intentional then its called fragging. aka murder. planning to kill a fellow soldier who isnt shooting or a threat to you.

accidental ,see how Pat Tillman died in afghanistan.

 

[Mysteryman]

lol, so it aint murder then i we able to kill children in womb according to God eyes. By whom is the standard for what sin is or isn't. man or the Lord

i call it like i see it.

abortion is murder, david plotting and order the murder of uriah.

fratricide, define that.

if its intentional then its called fragging. aka murder. planning to kill a fellow soldier who isnt shooting or a threat to you.

accidental ,see how Pat Tillman died in afghanistan.

Hi Jason

Of course it is the Lord who decides what is a sin or not. But this is why the Word allows us to see the true judgement of God and the mercy of God . All unrighteousness is sin. But not all sin is a sin unto death. Meaning that a sin that is committed brings about eternal death to the one who commits the sin. As for Cain, he has no eternal life abiding in him because he murdered his brother Abel. And Cain was of that wicked one. But King David was not of the wicked one. King David sinned, but not a sin unto death. We can see this by the judgement of God upon King David. And we know that King David was a man after God's own heart.

 

[jasoncran]

you failed to show that murder is unforgiveable. i will reread your posts, but i dont see it.


Didnt jesus also ask for forgiveness for those who crucified him. Jesus was innocent and in a sense put to death for a crime he didnt commit.

But some plotted to kill him, those he condemned cause he knew that they knew who he was and they blasphemed the holy spirit.

didnt jesus say all manner of sin is forgiveable except the blasphemey of the holy ghost. all means all . only one excpeption.