Murder

[Mysteryman]

you failed to show that murder is unforgiveable. i will reread your posts, but i dont see it.


Didnt jesus also ask for forgiveness for those who crucified him. Jesus was innocent and in a sense put to death for a crime he didnt commit.

But some plotted to kill him, those he condemned cause he knew that they knew who he was and they blasphemed the holy spirit.

didnt jesus say all manner of sin is forgiveable except the blasphemey of the holy ghost. all means all . only one excpeption.

Hi Jason

I John 3:15 - "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer : and you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him"

The key word is "hate"

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit can be accomplished by word or action. Action would be murder.

 

[Mysteryman]

Here are the words of Jesus Christ pertaining to a murderer

John 8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh his own : for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Hebrews 2:14 - "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil"

I John 3:12 - "Not as Cain who was of that wicked one", and slew his brother"

You will notice that John 8:44 is talking about blasphemeing the Holy Spirit and murder. He is a liar and a murderer. And the father of both the lie and murder.

 

[jasoncran]

cain did he repent no,

there is no verse that says it can't be forgiven.

then what of the king menasseh? he killed many of his own people.

yet was forgiven.

that was the spirit that was cain choose to stay in.

if you dont repent whose child are you? the devils.

so one can commit adultery and still love thy neighbor and plot to kill him and not "hate" him.
sounds odd to me.

then reconcile that logic with the statement that jesus stated that the law hangs upon the first two commandments.

then means you aint saved when you do those things.If the love of God dwells in you wont murder. But that doenst mean you can't be forgiven.

so you have decided that all those abortionist can't be forgiven are already doomed. not wise.

i'm in the middle road with the eternal security doctrine.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Jason: "so you have decided that all those abortionist can't be forgiven are already doomed. not wise."


Hi Jason

No Jason, you decided this for me. Which is not wise on your part. I never said that, nor did I imply it !

I told you that this was a touchy subject. And if anyone handles this subject irrationally, then there will never be a common ground of truth. And this is just another reason for there being so many doctorines within the world , all claiming the truth. If the Word of God is not one's specific source for truth, then truth will never be attained.

Then there needs to be an honest heart when searching the scriptures. It is God that reveals, but he will not reveal unto a heart that is not ready to receive.

Murder is an unforgivable sin. The devil, which is the adversary of God, is the author of the lie, and is the author of death. And the last enemy of God that will be destroyed is death. The devil has no conscience when it comes to a lie, or when it comes to death. When someone murders another they have no value for life and for God. Murder includes hating your brother and then murder is just the fulfilling of the act of hatred. Just like coveting thy neighbor's wife. The act is adultery.

If one is of the devil, and the devil is their father. Then God is not their father, and both the devil and those whom follow him will end up in the second death.

For God is of love, and anyone who hateth his brother is not of God. They are of their father the devil.

 

[jasoncran]

so then you also say then now these THREE things are unforgiveable. Hatred, Murder, and Blasphemy

if you arent a child of God whose child are YOU? The devil that means you aren't saved. the two former are forgivable.

Paul hated christians when he persecuted them as saul, otherwise consent to their death.

that then eliminates all his writings since hes in hell.

a homosexual, a liar and the thief and all sinners that havent repented are all children of the devil as that nature.

talk about additions to the bible.

 

[Mysteryman]

so then you also say then now these THREE things are unforgiveable. Hatred, Murder, and Blasphemy

if you arent a child of God whose child are YOU? The devil that means you aren't saved. the two former are forgivable.

Paul hated christians when he persecuted them as saul, otherwise consent to their death.

that then eliminates all his writings since hes in hell.

a homosexual, a liar and the thief and all sinners that havent repented are all children of the devil as that nature.

talk about additions to the bible.

Hi Jason

Biblically speaking, the word "hate" is a serious word, and not to be taken lightly in its understanding.

I can hate my brother for stealing from me. But that statement is said in the usage of being very upset with my brother. That then would mean that I am angry with him that he did not love me, but instead stole from me. It does not mean that I can't or won't forgive him.

The word "hate" must be understood in the light that it is given within scripture. Murder is the manifestation of hating your brother. I am too love my brother, even if he has offended me. Thus I can forgive him of his offence.

If he murders me, how can a dead person forgive anyone ? They can't ! Murder is the total manifestation of hatred.

Killing in war is not based upon hate. In The OT law, putting someone to death according to the law of God is not hate. Most of the time in the OT mercy was given instead of killing them. But certain circumcstances would not allow mercy at all .

This topic is not about just sinning. Most sins can be forgiven by God. Murder is not one of them ! This is why we must be careful when we say that someone murdered , when in fact they did not. Dealing with murder is serious. Determining whether or not someone is a murderer is also very, very serious buisness. When in doubt, let God be the final judge on the matter. However, we should not be blind to the fact that murder is an unforgivable sin.

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

hatred isnt the only mo for murder.

greed. to coverup a crime ,and so on

by what did you come by this on the definition of hate

i have had hatred in my heart, for the rich and for the gay man i was with, all of which i let go.

using your logic then all killing should be ok at is not done in hate. ie abortion and so on.

 

[Mysteryman]

hatred isnt the only mo for murder.

greed. to coverup a crime ,and so on

by what did you come by this on the definition of hate

i have had hatred in my heart, for the rich and for the gay man i was with, all of which i let go.

using your logic then all killing should be ok at is not done in hate. ie abortion and so on.

Hi Jason

I have asked you before, and will ask you again to refrain from saying the phrase - "using your logic then" -- and then you give your own explanation and attach it to what you declare is my logic.

When in doubt about something I have said or shared with you, always ask first before declaring what my logic is all about.

There are many factors that can lead to hate. The very first murder was Cain, murdering his brother Able. When his countenance fell, then sin lieth at the door. That sin is "hate". When one's countenance falls, then hate rules the heart - Genesis 4:7. Greed could bring about one's countenance to fall. We can hate people for the things they stand for, or the things they have done, as long as your countenance does not fall. Hate is a form of anger, also called wrath. Even God has wrath . But God's wrath is righteous. This is why God tells us that - "Vengance is mine saith the Lord" < Because his vengance is righteous.

Some abortions are murder, while others are not. God will judge !

I would tend to believe that you would agree with me, that even during a battle at war. Killing is justified. But if one kills the enemy , when they could have detained the enemy, it could fall under the heading of murder. Again - God will judge !

Nonetheless, "murder" is an unforgivable sin. Murder is the manifestation of hatred. One's countenance must fall first. Then hatred rules the heart.

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

killing the enemy in combat that has surrendered or is injured as in double tapping is considered violation of the laws of war

all abortion is murder except one to save the mother

and btw c everette koop a pediatric physicain has said that he has never had to do that in his 36 yrs as a physician! so all abortion is murder as most of the time its done for convience

so it's killing when men dont hate. odd

a man can be murdered when armed robbery goes bad
or to be kept quiet
or in cold malice
or in jealous rage or road rage

thou shalt not murder is what you say then in the ot? correct?
if that is true then abortion nor genocide is a sin, and those are killings acoording to your freakish thinking.

was it love or a missunderstanding when the jews were gassed by hitler's men. they carried it out. was it in love or missunderstanding when the bodies were stripped of any gold teeth and left in the open graves to rot!

no the germans of that time hated and blamed the Weimer Republican (run by jews) for thier woes and dwelt on them, that was done in hate.

there fore murder.

when saul consented to the deaths of the saints he carried out writs of arrests that allowed the christian to be bound and judge for blasphemy and executed. that was murder as in zeal . jesus prophecied of such things as he said that the disciples and followers would be killed in the name of god.

is perscecution a spirit of love or hate? the later.

 

[glorydaz]

This topic is not about just sinning. Most sins can be forgiven by God. Murder is not one of them ! This is why we must be careful when we say that someone murdered , when in fact they did not. Dealing with murder is serious. Determining whether or not someone is a murderer is also very, very serious buisness. When in doubt, let God be the final judge on the matter. However, we should not be blind to the fact that murder is an unforgivable sin.

You're wrong. Murder is not an unforgivable sin. It's included with all the lists of sins that were taken on the cross. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheming the Holy Ghost (a sin of the tongue - not confessing Jesus as Lord). The true meaning of that cannot contradict other Scripture. "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The sin unto death is unbelief. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit the same...it is clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ .

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

[Mysteryman]

This topic is not about just sinning. Most sins can be forgiven by God. Murder is not one of them ! This is why we must be careful when we say that someone murdered , when in fact they did not. Dealing with murder is serious. Determining whether or not someone is a murderer is also very, very serious buisness. When in doubt, let God be the final judge on the matter. However, we should not be blind to the fact that murder is an unforgivable sin.

You're wrong. Murder is not an unforgivable sin. It's included with all the lists of sins that were taken on the cross. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheming the Holy Ghost (a sin of the tongue - not confessing Jesus as Lord). The true meaning of that cannot contradict other Scripture. "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The sin unto death is unbelief. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit the same...it is clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ .

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[quote="John 3:36":32n42qvr]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

[/quote:32n42qvr]


Hi glorydaz

I find it intersting that you would say that just rejecting the Christ is going to end one up into the second death !

The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. My sheep hear my voice. So what you are suggesting, is that those who are not called or chosen then go to the second death. Bizarre to say the least !

Since not all are called or chosen, and because only those who are of the sheepfold are a part of a special calling from God. That you would condemn all others to the second death just based upon the fact that they were not called or chosen !

Yet, you have murderers being saved . :rolling

This is one of the most illogical beliefs I have ever heard ! :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

killing the enemy in combat that has surrendered or is injured as in double tapping is considered violation of the laws of war

all abortion is murder except one to save the mother

and btw c everette koop a pediatric physicain has said that he has never had to do that in his 36 yrs as a physician! so all abortion is murder as most of the time its done for convience

so it's killing when men dont hate. odd

a man can be murdered when armed robbery goes bad
or to be kept quiet
or in cold malice
or in jealous rage or road rage

thou shalt not murder is what you say then in the ot? correct?
if that is true then abortion nor genocide is a sin, and those are killings acoording to your freakish thinking.

was it love or a missunderstanding when the jews were gassed by hitler's men. they carried it out. was it in love or missunderstanding when the bodies were stripped of any gold teeth and left in the open graves to rot!

no the germans of that time hated and blamed the Weimer Republican (run by jews) for thier woes and dwelt on them, that was done in hate.

there fore murder.

when saul consented to the deaths of the saints he carried out writs of arrests that allowed the christian to be bound and judge for blasphemy and executed. that was murder as in zeal . jesus prophecied of such things as he said that the disciples and followers would be killed in the name of god.

is perscecution a spirit of love or hate? the later.

Hi Jason

None of your comments are biblically related, why ? All your comments are based upon assumptions, why ?

 

[stovebolts]

I John 3:15 - "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer : and you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him"

The key word is "hate"

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit can be accomplished by word or action. Action would be murder.

H,

I wanted to touch upon this verse if you don't mind.

It appears that you are defining murder as the action of taking another human beings life as a result of hatred. In the above verse that you used, I believe that John is making the connection of "Hating your brother" as being equal to committing the act of Murder.

We know that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved and he heard Jesus say, "You have been told, hate your enemies, but I tell you, love your enemies." and elsewhere Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

God is concerned with the state of ones heart, and when we hate another, we commit murder against them (I am not speaking about anger). We not only sin against God, but we sin against ourselves because to hate your brother, is to murder a piece of your own humanity, and our own conscious becomes seared.

God is in the process of reconciling all things through Christ Jesus who dwells within each Christian, and reconciliation cannot occur when we fail to see the value of each and every human being, even one who has committed murder for that person may just be able to do some good, and be a light, even in prison where so much darkness dwells...

 

[Mysteryman]

killing the enemy in combat that has surrendered or is injured as in double tapping is considered violation of the laws of war

all abortion is murder except one to save the mother

and btw c everette koop a pediatric physicain has said that he has never had to do that in his 36 yrs as a physician! so all abortion is murder as most of the time its done for convience

so it's killing when men dont hate. odd

a man can be murdered when armed robbery goes bad
or to be kept quiet
or in cold malice
or in jealous rage or road rage

thou shalt not murder is what you say then in the ot? correct?
if that is true then abortion nor genocide is a sin, and those are killings acoording to your freakish thinking.

was it love or a missunderstanding when the jews were gassed by hitler's men. they carried it out. was it in love or missunderstanding when the bodies were stripped of any gold teeth and left in the open graves to rot!

no the germans of that time hated and blamed the Weimer Republican (run by jews) for thier woes and dwelt on them, that was done in hate.

there fore murder.

when saul consented to the deaths of the saints he carried out writs of arrests that allowed the christian to be bound and judge for blasphemy and executed. that was murder as in zeal . jesus prophecied of such things as he said that the disciples and followers would be killed in the name of god.

is perscecution a spirit of love or hate? the later.

Hi Jason


"your --"freakish thinking" < Are these suppose to be the kind of words that a moderator should use ? ? ?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote StoveBolts : "It appears that you are defining murder as the action of taking another human beings life as a result of hatred. In the above verse that you used, I believe that John is making the connection of "Hating your brother" as being equal to committing the act of Murder.

We know that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved and he heard Jesus say, "You have been told, hate your enemies, but I tell you, love your enemies." and elsewhere Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."


Hi Jeff:

I carried these two paragraphs into this reply because I wanted to comment about what you said here.

Yes, Murder is based upon taking another humans life based upon hatred for that person.

No, the verse does not imply that hating your brother is equal to committing the act of murder. This is where people become confused.

I have tried to explain this before, and it is obvious that I will need to explain it again, so here goes >

If a sin is not manifested , then it is not established. Sin is sin, make no mistake about this. One can sin in their hearts by lusing after the flesh of a married woman. To covet thy neighbor's wife is to seek after her, not only in one's mind, but also looking for a door of opportunity. The Word of God calls it - "lead captive silly women laden with sins , led away with divers (many) lusts". You see, adultery is mainly a sin of a man. Fornication is mainly a sin of a woman. (Notice I used the word "mainly here - I can explain latter ).

The point I am trying to make here, is that one can sin in their minds. The actual sin becomes manifested, when it goes beyond the mind. That means that one takes the sin of the mind and now manifests it into fruition. As with adultery, one can sin in their mind, but it becomes manifested when the act of adultery is literal.

This literal act is what establishes the sin of adultery. Twice established sin is worse than just sinning in one's mind.

The same holds true with murder. One can have a tremendous amount of hatred for another in their mind. Which would be murder of the mind , if one thinks along these lines of thinking of murderering. Then there is hate, which can just be an act of anger, but no thoughts of murdering is going through one's mind. These kinds of people want to resolve in some fashion the anger they feel from being hurt. Forgiveness is the greatest solution.

But when a murderer establishes the sin of murder, the actual act needs to take place.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, one can totoally denounce God from every angel possible, and this would be an unforgiveable sin. However, there is a second side to this. That is "murder". Murder is the act or action of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

To covet thy neighbor's goods is a sin. But the manifestation of this is to "steal" literally. A thief has established the sin, thus making it a greater sin than just coveting.

The same holds true with all sins. Fear or doubt can be a sin, and especially if manifested. All unrighteousness is sin.

Peter not only feared the Jews, and thus doubted within himself that he would not deny the Lord. But we know that his fear and doubt were manifested, in that the denied the Lord three times.

When the Word states, that no "Murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them. It is talking about one who has established (manifested) the actual act of murder, such was the case with Cain when he murdered his brother Abel.

When one's countenance falls , sin lieth at the door. God will not allow a son of God to murder anyone. A son of God can get just as angry as anyone else. Very angry at times. But in some way God will open their eyes in such a way, that they will never manifest the actual act of murder. A son of God has eternal life abiding in them.

Any questions ?

Bless - MM

 

[awaken]

I have been reading this...and have a few questions..

Could it be that a murder can not be saved...meaning if someone murders, he can not have the Spirit in him. But..after someone has murdered...He hears the gospel..accepts salvation. Then he is no longer a murderer..his sins are cleansed?? HE is no longer looked at as a murder...therefore can enter into eternal life.

Also..is suicide considered murder?

 

[Mysteryman]

I have been reading this...and have a few questions..

Could it be that a murder can not be saved...meaning if someone murders, he can not have the Spirit in him. But..after someone has murdered...He hears the gospel..accepts salvation. Then he is no longer a murderer..his sins are cleansed?? HE is no longer looked at as a murder...therefore can enter into eternal life.

Also..is suicide considered murder?

Hi awaken

The Word tells us that no man has ever hated his own flesh (Eph.5:29). So suicide is not murder.

If one committs murder, he is a murderer, and no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15. There is no salvation for a murderer.

Always remember that God is the final judge, and that God looks upon the heart. In many cases of a death, only God knows if one is a murderer.

 

[archangel_300]

Hi Mysteryman,

Do you think God thought Uriah's death was OK but David's act of adultery was wrong?
If you were in David's shoes and you committed the same act against Uriah would you do so in front of Jesus? Would you then say to Jesus that was not murder that was killing?

 

[glorydaz]

This topic is not about just sinning. Most sins can be forgiven by God. Murder is not one of them ! This is why we must be careful when we say that someone murdered , when in fact they did not. Dealing with murder is serious. Determining whether or not someone is a murderer is also very, very serious buisness. When in doubt, let God be the final judge on the matter. However, we should not be blind to the fact that murder is an unforgivable sin.

You're wrong. Murder is not an unforgivable sin. It's included with all the lists of sins that were taken on the cross. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheming the Holy Ghost (a sin of the tongue - not confessing Jesus as Lord). The true meaning of that cannot contradict other Scripture. "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The sin unto death is unbelief. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit the same...it is clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ .

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[quote="John 3:36":3qmvzh0k]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible.
[quote="Genesis 6:3":3qmvzh0k]And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

[/quote:3qmvzh0k]


Hi glorydaz

I find it intersting that you would say that just rejecting the Christ is going to end one up into the second death !

The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. My sheep hear my voice. So what you are suggesting, is that those who are not called or chosen then go to the second death. Bizarre to say the least !

Since not all are called or chosen, and because only those who are of the sheepfold are a part of a special calling from God. That you would condemn all others to the second death just based upon the fact that they were not called or chosen !

Yet, you have murderers being saved . :rolling

This is one of the most illogical beliefs I have ever heard ! :yes[/quote:3qmvzh0k]

God has called all men every where to repent.
So yes, rejecting Christ...unbelief is the only thing that cannot be forgiven.

We see murder lumped in with all manner of sin...even being a busybody.
For you to claim any sin, even murder, is not covered by the blood is presumptuous.

But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

If you hate your brother, you're a murderer.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If you want to use the many are called but few are chosen, I suggest you use it correctly, and not make excuses for those who reject the Lord.

Man is without excuse...

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Many are called...and chosen when they respond.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thus the preaching of the Gospel...

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

All are drawn...not all respond.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It's a blessing God has given us the Bible to keep man from making up his own rules, isn't it? :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "It's a blessing God has given us the Bible to keep man from making up his own rules, isn't it?"

Hi glorydaz

Yes, it is a blessing to have something to read that resembles the Word of God. However, that does not stop man from the manipulation of the Word of God ! The Word tells us that some use the righteousness of the Word in unrighteousness. And I believe that this should be a wake up call to all those who do this .

As I am sure that you are aware, most everyone uses their bibles and make quotes from their bibles. However, they see what they want to see. Instead of what is actually being said.

When the Word says that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them. Then this is exactly what it is saying. So why do people want to alter the Word and make it say something else ?

We are not to handle the Word in unrighteousness ! Plain and simple !