Mysteryman
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archangel_300 said:
Hi there
Why would you ask me such a carnal question such as this ? Especially after everything I have said within this thread !
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Murder
- Thread starter Mysteryman
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Hi there
Why would you ask me such a carnal question such as this ? Especially after everything I have said within this thread !
archangel_300
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Mysteryman said:
Did David hate Uriah?
Mysteryman
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archangel_300 said:
Did David hate Uriah?[/quote:3c5656qu]
Did he ?
Mysteryman
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Quote StoveBolts: "God is in the process of reconciling all things through Christ Jesus who dwells within each Christian, and reconciliation cannot occur when we fail to see the value of each and every human being, even one who has committed murder for that person may just be able to do some good, and be a light, even in prison where so much darkness dwells..."
Hi Jeff
The Word asks us -- "What fellowship hath righeousness with unrighteousness" and states - "I would not that ye have fellowship with devils"
A murderer is of that wicked one - I John 3:12
The murderer is of their father the devil. < A manifested murderer !
I John 2:9 - He that hateth his brother is in darkness
I John 2:11 - "He that hateth his brother is in darkness and walketh in darkness
There is no light in one who has committed murder.
Hi Jeff
The Word asks us -- "What fellowship hath righeousness with unrighteousness" and states - "I would not that ye have fellowship with devils"
A murderer is of that wicked one - I John 3:12
The murderer is of their father the devil. < A manifested murderer !
I John 2:9 - He that hateth his brother is in darkness
I John 2:11 - "He that hateth his brother is in darkness and walketh in darkness
There is no light in one who has committed murder.
WordSwordsman
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I've read with interest and have a few comments I hope will help.
Concerning the gravity of hating a brother (Gr. adelphos, one of the same womb or counted as fellow child of God), Jesus said that "is" murder, being a "manslayer" as though running a sword through them. John wrote similarly.
1 John 2:9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."
1 John 2:11 "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."
1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
The object lesson is what is the present state? A person might be a former murderer, which class could contain all of us to some degree. Scriptures don't distinguish between levels of murderer. A person might currently be trapped into a murder lifestyle. Another might go to his grave as a habitual murderer. God is interested in the current status of the heart. If you have a murderous heart of any degree, repent. If a manslayer, confess it, submit to the laws of man and of God, and never do it again. A murderER is one who chooses to retain the sin of murder. Many people are Christians today that have murderED in some way in the past, but certainly not ongoing. We can't be to judgmental over just the sin of murder. Rev. 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Shed all those sins, don't be counted as a sinnER, but be holy as He is holy, a saint of God. Have you told a lie lately? It will command the same attention as any of those other sins. We've all sinnED, but shall no more be slaves to sin, Christians!
Who can say they had no sin in them worthy of eternal death before being born again? Please don't deceive yourself into saying "Me". Just being a habitual hater of a family member or just one neighbor makes one a murderer in God's eyes because that person lives in darkness. But He saves from such as that. Once in Christ the goal is never to allow any sin to take root, to become a habit. We all are tempted in our mind saved or not, without a problem unless temptation is allowed to grow into lust or covetousness. It is indeed likely that if anyone harbors a temptation too long, applies the imagination to it, then lets that become lust, that lust can drive a person's ego until death. Is that the sort of mindset God administers in His Kingdom? Do any of us really believe God wants people with murderous thoughts to live eternally with Him?
But if a person lets all that go to the end of actually slaying a brother, we know the love of God is not there. There remains no wondering then. But if God cannot forgive that and save a soul guilty of hating a brother, then who can be saved? None. No murderer has eternal life. But the key is murderer formerly, but no more, having repented unto forgiveness. But if always a murderer, by not confessing it, or by continually slaying, then that person remains unforgiven and without hope. The scriptures are quite clear. No unrepentant unrighteous person will have eternal life, regardless of how much God might choose anyone. He will not choose unrepentant sinners. Instead, God chose the plan that by faith in Christ any sinner can be saved and break free of the curse of sin, the law, and slavery to behave contrary to the holy righteousness of Christ.
There was no law against murder when Cain slew Abel. God is not guilty of giving men the concept of a sin not committed, but is on record dealing with every sin after committed. God immediately put a curse on anyone that had ideas of killing Cain in revenge. He didn't put the threat of death on that sin until a few thousands years later, announced by Moses. Once God prohibits an act He means don't do it. He dealt with the physical act of slaying a person on a personal basis, such as out of hatred. He also defined and strongly condemned adultery and homosexuality, more abominable sins God said are worthy of death. Jesus went deeper to say such sins are already accounted just for dwelling on them to the point of lusting, unrepentance for which assures eternal death as well as continuing in the curses of the law. It isn't the sins themselves that condemn, but the darkness one dwells in. The sins are symptoms of spiritual heart disease. None of that is beyond healing by God through Jesus and true repentance. The one sin that can't be forgiven, indicating a most unholy wickedness, is ascribing an act of the Holy Spirit to Satan while fully knowing better.
Concerning the gravity of hating a brother (Gr. adelphos, one of the same womb or counted as fellow child of God), Jesus said that "is" murder, being a "manslayer" as though running a sword through them. John wrote similarly.
1 John 2:9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."
1 John 2:11 "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."
1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
The object lesson is what is the present state? A person might be a former murderer, which class could contain all of us to some degree. Scriptures don't distinguish between levels of murderer. A person might currently be trapped into a murder lifestyle. Another might go to his grave as a habitual murderer. God is interested in the current status of the heart. If you have a murderous heart of any degree, repent. If a manslayer, confess it, submit to the laws of man and of God, and never do it again. A murderER is one who chooses to retain the sin of murder. Many people are Christians today that have murderED in some way in the past, but certainly not ongoing. We can't be to judgmental over just the sin of murder. Rev. 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Shed all those sins, don't be counted as a sinnER, but be holy as He is holy, a saint of God. Have you told a lie lately? It will command the same attention as any of those other sins. We've all sinnED, but shall no more be slaves to sin, Christians!
Who can say they had no sin in them worthy of eternal death before being born again? Please don't deceive yourself into saying "Me". Just being a habitual hater of a family member or just one neighbor makes one a murderer in God's eyes because that person lives in darkness. But He saves from such as that. Once in Christ the goal is never to allow any sin to take root, to become a habit. We all are tempted in our mind saved or not, without a problem unless temptation is allowed to grow into lust or covetousness. It is indeed likely that if anyone harbors a temptation too long, applies the imagination to it, then lets that become lust, that lust can drive a person's ego until death. Is that the sort of mindset God administers in His Kingdom? Do any of us really believe God wants people with murderous thoughts to live eternally with Him?
But if a person lets all that go to the end of actually slaying a brother, we know the love of God is not there. There remains no wondering then. But if God cannot forgive that and save a soul guilty of hating a brother, then who can be saved? None. No murderer has eternal life. But the key is murderer formerly, but no more, having repented unto forgiveness. But if always a murderer, by not confessing it, or by continually slaying, then that person remains unforgiven and without hope. The scriptures are quite clear. No unrepentant unrighteous person will have eternal life, regardless of how much God might choose anyone. He will not choose unrepentant sinners. Instead, God chose the plan that by faith in Christ any sinner can be saved and break free of the curse of sin, the law, and slavery to behave contrary to the holy righteousness of Christ.
There was no law against murder when Cain slew Abel. God is not guilty of giving men the concept of a sin not committed, but is on record dealing with every sin after committed. God immediately put a curse on anyone that had ideas of killing Cain in revenge. He didn't put the threat of death on that sin until a few thousands years later, announced by Moses. Once God prohibits an act He means don't do it. He dealt with the physical act of slaying a person on a personal basis, such as out of hatred. He also defined and strongly condemned adultery and homosexuality, more abominable sins God said are worthy of death. Jesus went deeper to say such sins are already accounted just for dwelling on them to the point of lusting, unrepentance for which assures eternal death as well as continuing in the curses of the law. It isn't the sins themselves that condemn, but the darkness one dwells in. The sins are symptoms of spiritual heart disease. None of that is beyond healing by God through Jesus and true repentance. The one sin that can't be forgiven, indicating a most unholy wickedness, is ascribing an act of the Holy Spirit to Satan while fully knowing better.
Mysteryman
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Quote Wordswordsman: "There was no law against murder when Cain slew Abel. God is not guilty of giving men the concept of a sin not committed, but is on record dealing with every sin after committed. God immediately put a curse on anyone that had ideas of killing Cain in revenge. He didn't put the threat of death on that sin until a few thousands years later, announced by Moses. Once God prohibits an act He means don't do it."
Hi Ws,sman
Many people make the same mistake you have made here in your reasoning.
All unrigheousness is sin - period !
And lets not forget that before Cain slew his brother Abel, God talked to Cain and reminded him that if his countenance fell, then "sin" lieth at the door. < Genesis 4:7
Sin is walking in death, and some sin is unto death. The very first sin was the sin of Adam, and because of this sin, "in Adam all die" because of the sin of one !
The sin of Cain was a sin unto death, because no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God made sure that Cain did not sin unaware of sin. Indeed God made sure that Cain knew ! < Genesis 4:7
The curse upon Cain was an example from God that they likewise will receive the same as CAIN , that his mark was the mark of death - eternal death. This mark put upon Cain also was to show, that if anyone killed Cain, that their sin would be greater. Just like in heaven , we Christians will receive different rewards based upon our walk in righteousness. Even in the second death, there is greater consequences within the second death. Just being a murderer ,literally, one will receive the second death. But there are greater punishment , even for the sin of murder. Vengance for one who is a murderer ( one who murders a murderer ), is a greater sin then the one who committed murder.
Within the Law of Moses, murder as well as some other sins, were punishable by death. The Law of God made this possible. This is what was missing in Genesis chapter 4. > The Law of God. Because of this lack of righteous judgement according to the Law of God, no man had a right to make a law in their own minds, and then act upon their own self righteousness.
Hi Ws,sman
Many people make the same mistake you have made here in your reasoning.
All unrigheousness is sin - period !
And lets not forget that before Cain slew his brother Abel, God talked to Cain and reminded him that if his countenance fell, then "sin" lieth at the door. < Genesis 4:7
Sin is walking in death, and some sin is unto death. The very first sin was the sin of Adam, and because of this sin, "in Adam all die" because of the sin of one !
The sin of Cain was a sin unto death, because no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God made sure that Cain did not sin unaware of sin. Indeed God made sure that Cain knew ! < Genesis 4:7
The curse upon Cain was an example from God that they likewise will receive the same as CAIN , that his mark was the mark of death - eternal death. This mark put upon Cain also was to show, that if anyone killed Cain, that their sin would be greater. Just like in heaven , we Christians will receive different rewards based upon our walk in righteousness. Even in the second death, there is greater consequences within the second death. Just being a murderer ,literally, one will receive the second death. But there are greater punishment , even for the sin of murder. Vengance for one who is a murderer ( one who murders a murderer ), is a greater sin then the one who committed murder.
Within the Law of Moses, murder as well as some other sins, were punishable by death. The Law of God made this possible. This is what was missing in Genesis chapter 4. > The Law of God. Because of this lack of righteous judgement according to the Law of God, no man had a right to make a law in their own minds, and then act upon their own self righteousness.
Mysteryman said:
Oh, I see. Then, using your rules, there will be no drunks, revellers, or envious either.
Galatians 5:21 said:
Don't forget to add those who hate their brother because that's murder.
Oh, and the fearful, whoremongers, liars....and all these.
Revelation 21:8 said:
Mysteryman
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[/quote:201797h8]glorydaz said:
Hi glorydaz
If murder was a forgivable sin, then the devil who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning, would also be forgiven. And if that were true, then the devil would not go into the second death.
Just face the facts ! God is no respector of persons. Some sins are unto death, and there is no way that these will repent of their sins. Even if they did repent, these sins would not be forgiven, because they are sins unto death. Murder and being a murderer is one.
All fearful and unbelieving , and abominable, and murderers and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars who are of their father the devil, who are of that wicked one, will have their part in the second death. It is as simple as that.
Not all drunks are drunkards. They have not made the devil their father. The ones who have made the devil their father, are those who will end up in the second death. They are of the wicked one !
Bless
jasoncran
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if one sins then he or she is a sinner if he isnt born again.
if one lies what is a person, a liar, if they dont repent.
if one commits adultery once, what is one and adulterer unless repentence
so then bible is wrong when it states or rather that we are by nature prone to sin and also have that nature from the devil. ie child of the devil
salvation is for men not the angels.
who is the prince of the air and does the temptation. the devil, so when we sin we are pleasing the devil, not god
we please god when we believe in him and are born again and do his will.
because we are his children upon repentance unto salvation
but what are we and whose are we until then?
if one lies what is a person, a liar, if they dont repent.
if one commits adultery once, what is one and adulterer unless repentence
so then bible is wrong when it states or rather that we are by nature prone to sin and also have that nature from the devil. ie child of the devil
salvation is for men not the angels.
who is the prince of the air and does the temptation. the devil, so when we sin we are pleasing the devil, not god
we please god when we believe in him and are born again and do his will.
because we are his children upon repentance unto salvation
but what are we and whose are we until then?
Mysteryman
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Quote Jasoncran : "because we are his children upon repentance unto salvation"
Hi Jason
We are not his children "upon" repentance unto salvation. We are his children from before the foundations of the world.
Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without being concerned with (repentance)"
The word "repentance" here means -- "Not to be concerned with"
In II Corinth. 7:9 & 10 , in both verses we have the word "repentance" used in both verses. And in both verses, this word "repentance" is the word -- "Change of mind" - greek word - "metanoia"
II Corinth. 7:9 - "Now I rejoice , not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to "Change of mind" (repentance) : for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing"
II Corinth. 7:10 - "For godly sorrow worketh Comfort (repentance) to (our) salvation (saved by grace and not of works lest any man should boast) not to be concerned with (repented of) : but the sorrow of the world worketh death"
Hi Jason
We are not his children "upon" repentance unto salvation. We are his children from before the foundations of the world.
Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without being concerned with (repentance)"
The word "repentance" here means -- "Not to be concerned with"
In II Corinth. 7:9 & 10 , in both verses we have the word "repentance" used in both verses. And in both verses, this word "repentance" is the word -- "Change of mind" - greek word - "metanoia"
II Corinth. 7:9 - "Now I rejoice , not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to "Change of mind" (repentance) : for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing"
II Corinth. 7:10 - "For godly sorrow worketh Comfort (repentance) to (our) salvation (saved by grace and not of works lest any man should boast) not to be concerned with (repented of) : but the sorrow of the world worketh death"
jasoncran
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huh, if we are his children before repentance then why the verses about adoption?
we cry abba father, then and he claim us as his own,
what of paul's statement that states the Lord chastens those he loves, if you arent being chastised then you arent one of his but a bastard.
strong words to say if all are his children ere salvation, that either states that salvation can be lost, or most likely implies that you arent one of his.
we cry abba father, then and he claim us as his own,
what of paul's statement that states the Lord chastens those he loves, if you arent being chastised then you arent one of his but a bastard.
strong words to say if all are his children ere salvation, that either states that salvation can be lost, or most likely implies that you arent one of his.
Mysteryman
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jasoncran said:
Hi Jason
Ephesians 1:4 - "According as he hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"
Ephesians 1:7 - "In whom (IN Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"
Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom (In Christ) ye also trusted after that ye heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom (IN Christ) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"
Verse 14 , we are a -- "purchased possession"
jasoncran
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not until we accept him.
are you a calvinist?
if you take that the way said in context with what you said in an earlier post
that means either all men are saved except a few, or you may be believe in universalism
(some type)
which is it.
we must choose christ after he presents himself.
no freewill no need for the cross as we are only robots.
are you a calvinist?
if you take that the way said in context with what you said in an earlier post
that means either all men are saved except a few, or you may be believe in universalism
(some type)
which is it.
we must choose christ after he presents himself.
no freewill no need for the cross as we are only robots.
Mysteryman
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jasoncran said:
Hi Jason
A Christian believes, because they have been saved. They don't believe to become saved !
Christians have eternal life abiding in them. This is why a Christian can not commit murder, literally !
Christians are saved by grace, not of works.
We have the promise of the Father, we have the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, crying Abba , Father. That is because God is our Father. God has given us not the Spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things"
Acts 13:48 - "ordained to eternal life, believed"
In dealing with, could one be a murderer , or even commit murder literally, the answer is no they can not ! Jude 24 - "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"
I Thessalonians 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly ; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Verse 24 - "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it"
Mysteryman
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jasoncran said:
Hi Jason
no, if you are saved by your own faith, then it is by works, and not by the grace of God.
When God told Abraham that he was going to have a son in his old age. God didn't tell Abraham that this would happen "if" you beleive. Actually, both Abram and Sari both doubted. Sarah and Abraham laughed - at different times. This happened because God promised that it would happen. And God brought it to pass, that which he had promised.
Christians are of the promise seed of God. This happened, not because we believed, or laughed, but because God promised this.
As Isaac was to be born of Sarah and Abraham before she concieved , the promise was made. The same with Christians. We have the promise seed of Christ in us, because of the promise of God . This is why we were chosen from before the foundations of the world, to be IN Christ, and have Christ in us.
jasoncran
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you put trust in jesus by praying to him to forgive.
acts 16:31 sir what one do to be saved, believe on the Lord jesus christ and thee and thine household shall be household shall be saved.
seems that first one must believe that jesus is who he says he is then act on that. not works but if its true fruit will come forth. you are telling God this, i am a sinner, and i want forgiveness, i surrender my will to you and will allow you to heal me and will do your will and live for you.
that is needed for salvation as you must repent. after that then you need to be sanctified and chastened when that rebellious spirit shows up.
acts 16:31 sir what one do to be saved, believe on the Lord jesus christ and thee and thine household shall be household shall be saved.
seems that first one must believe that jesus is who he says he is then act on that. not works but if its true fruit will come forth. you are telling God this, i am a sinner, and i want forgiveness, i surrender my will to you and will allow you to heal me and will do your will and live for you.
that is needed for salvation as you must repent. after that then you need to be sanctified and chastened when that rebellious spirit shows up.
Mysteryman
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jasoncran said:
Hi Jason
Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"