My Challenge is.....

[stovebolts]

lovely and destiny,
Thank you for your encouraging posts!

AV,
As we strive and grow in Christ and as we are formed more and more in His image, we become more aware of our sins at which point we are called to repent of them.
I cannot repent of a sin that I am not aware of. Do you remember Job, he used to offer a sacrifice for his children just in case they sinned. Was that wrong? If so, is it wrong for me to ask my Father in heaven to forgive me of sins that I have not yet become aware of? What if I ask that he reveal my sins to me that I can repent? is that ok?
However, if I have sinned a sin that I am aware of, I am to repent. If I do not repent, I will have to answer to God. But not repenting of a known sin truly exposes my true self and my lack of faith in Christ. God knows our hearts, we cannot hide our innermost thoughts from Him. And though we cannot hide or inner thoughts, it is our inner thoughts that seperate us from His mercy and grace.

I am reminded of two verses. First, for the sins we are aware of: 1 John 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness.
Second, for the sins were not aware of.
1 Peter 4:8 Above all keep your love for one another fervent, because love covers a multitude of sins.

We don't need to beat the sin out of our brother...

AV, I know you don’t spend much time in the OT, but do you remember Korah? Certainly he and those in agreement with him were part of the “Elect†per se. Do you recall what happened to him and his followers? (Numbers 16) Now listen to the children of Korah in Psalm 84, 85, 87 and 88.

May I suggest that we can learn something from all that?

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou Lovely & amen!

 

[AVBunyan]

Can a person who is saved sin all they want and still get to heaven?

I'll keep going until you folks get my point.

You saved "saved" right? Truly saved - regenerated and sealed right?

Answer....Yes!

God bless 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

1. AV, I know you don’t spend much time in the OT, but do you remember Korah?
2.If so, is it wrong for me to ask my Father in heaven to forgive me of sins that I have not yet become aware of?

1. Steve I understand that you only judge me by my posts, but...I spend time in the OT - went through our church Bible Institute three times with the last taking part in the teaching. A lot of our time was spent in OT books because my preacer majors in NT during regular preaching service but still preaches out of the OT.

I really believe II Tim. 3:16 and Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2. Why ask if you are already forgiven - Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14. Acknowledge and confess of course - absolutely. But to confess and ask forgiveness when you already have it in Christ doesn't make sense. Show me where Paul tells the saint to ask for forgiveness.

Hope that clears up a bit.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I agree with AV. Yes, a true believer can sin all they want, but they will not get any of the crowns and rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. Also, a believer can lose fellowship with the Father if they don't use 1 John 1:9 to repent, but the relationship cannot be broken because we serve a God who doesn't break covenants. Old or New. I have made statements about having a God Conscious vs.a sin conscious. If we think about God and His wonderful offer of love for us, we will get better and better at not sinning. If one thinks about sin all the time, he can develop a self-righteous attitude. Also, he can develop an attitude of blamming himself for sins, when Jesus took all our blame and shame at the cross. Also, one can take the attitude that gives glory to themselves when they tell someone, look at me, I don't sin as much as you. The Bible says that glory belongs to God. When we get to heaven, do you really think we go around saying look at all my crowns with a holier than thou attitude. I don't think so.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

I agree with AV. Yes, a true believer can sin all they want, but they will not get any of the crowns and rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible says that glory belongs to God. When we get to heaven, do you really think we go around saying look at all my crowns with a holier than thou attitude. I don't think so. May God bless, golfjack

Amen - golfjack

 

[destiny]

I would never let anyone teach one of my children that they could sin all they wanted after salvation and still go to heaven.
I see such a doctrine as no less heretical or damaging than what the universalists teach.

 

[AVBunyan]

I would never let anyone teach one of my children that they could sin all they wanted after salvation and still go to heaven..

When did I say that I'd teach my children that if they wanted to sin that they could.

You folks twist my words. You folks gave me a scenario and I answered - don't carry it further and assume what you think you know about me - don't pervert what I'm trying to show.

 

[destiny]

When did I say that I'd teach my children that if they wanted to sin that they could.

You folks twist my words. You folks gave me a scenario and I answered - don't carry it further and assume what you think you know about me - don't pervert what I'm trying to show.

I was referring to the doctrine moreso than in a personal way, AV.

True Story:
A couple of years ago my oldest son attended bible school at the baptist church down the road from us.
They started teaching them OSAS...My son told them that if a person gets saved and then starts using drugs, cursing, and beating their wife later on, they would not go to heaven unless they stopped doing those things and repented. (I can't remember his exact words)
They tried and tried to convince my son of once saved always saved to no avail. He didn't even get to go out with the rest of the class because he refused to give in to what they were trying to teach him.
For once his inherited strong will came in handy, and I was very proud of him for standing up for what he thought was right.
He also told me that after the service people were lighting up cigarettes and chewing tobacco. He told me innocently, not out of self righteousness.
I feel that this doctrine takes away the fear of the Lord and doesn't leave much room for holiness.
This is obviously a man taught doctrine, fortunately they didn't get ahold of my son early enough.
If people feel they have a ticket to sin without fear of reprisal, they will usually take it. Thats the sin nature.
If you remove the fear of the Lord out of the equation and teach cheap grace, then you have given people a license to do what they will.
God is loving and merciful, but He is also to be feared.
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. If you remove the fear of the Lord out of the equation and teach cheap grace, then you have given people a license to do what they will.
God is loving and merciful, but He is also to be feared.

2. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

1. The fear of the Lord does not teach a saint to live - please read the scriptures:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2. Now - you folks do this all the time - how about quoting the verse in context with the next verse -
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

While we are on the subject:
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Let's tack it on and be done with it:
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now - will you be so kind as to explain the above verses in light of your doctrine?

BTW - nice story but poor doctrine.

 

[destiny]

AV..

Let's tack it on and be done with it:
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now - will you be so kind as to explain the above verses in light of your doctrine?

In order to get the whole context of Eph. 4:30, you have to start with Eph. 4:20, preferably you really should start with verse 1 in order to get the whole counsel of what is being said with all scripture.

Verse 20-24 is speaking of the born again believers only...

But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in ((true)) righteousness and holiness.
These are the ones who will be sealed, not those who live according to the old sin nature. Those who live according to the old man, or the sin nature, have forsaken their inheritance and have indeed grieved God.

Salvation is conditional..

Consider what Paul wrote in Colossians 1:21-23 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister." Here Paul says that there is a possibility that Christians can fall away from the Lord if they don't continue in the faith. Notice that he's talking to people that are "in the faith", meaning that they are believers in Jesus Christ.

A similar passage in 2 Peter 2:20-22 talks about those that "have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and that they knew "the way of righteousness", which means that they knew Jesus in a personal way and gained victories through His abiding power; but Peter goes on to say that they had turned from this experience with Jesus and he says that they would have been better off never to "have known the way of righteousness". That is a strong statement. Paul also said that it's possible to "depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1). You can't depart from something unless you were once there.

Again, the same idea is expressed in Romans 11:22 "if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." And again in 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

 

[cyberjosh]

Jay T...
Let's be real with each other here, I don't want you to lie to me okay, remember keep the 10 commandments okay? Since you been born again, don't tell me you don't ever see a hott looking woman wearing something tight and showing off her beautiful figure that you never lust in your heart after her?? We are all just men (and woman), we all have desires and needs to be fulfilled. To say that you never lust after a woman would be a complete lie. Because every man and woman have done this since they were born again. Last night I was flipping through the TV channels and saw a Victoria Secert special on TV. I stopped and watched about five minutes of it. The women were tottaly hott!! But I had to turn the channel because of lust. We all and I mean we ALL deal with this issue. Maybe not everyday, but more then you probably care to explain.

The point is that the Christian's lifestyle will be characterized by love and obedience, not that you will never sin. The entire book of first John must be understood in that light lest we misunderstand 1 John 3:9 - "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

 

[unred typo]

I am a regenerated-redeemed saint seated in the heavenly places right this moment – sealed by the Holy Spirit of God – done deal – no if’s ands or buts.
Now I get in a fight with my wife of 23 years, lose my job, and get an IRS letter in the mail I am subject to go get drunk, find a strange woman, and then rob a bank to meet the other problems. You say, “I’d never do that!†I laugh at you in your pride and ignorance of the power of the flesh..
Guess what folks? I open my bible to Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14 and it says I’m still forgiven. My sins did not separate me from God – my sins (all of them) were forgiven at Calvary. My repentance did not save me in the first place so therefore my genuine repentance would not save me again.

First of all, I know from personal experience of my own and friends who have gone through far worse things and pulled through them, that it‘s quite possible to endure hardship without turning your back on God or committing any terrible sins. They weren’t programmed to fail so when persecution or tribulation came along, they didn’t crumble like a gingerbread man in a glass of milk. Your precious doctrine of OSAS makes it harder to stand in hard times. What’s the use of trying when it doesn’t really matter one way or the other? The worst thing is that’s it’s a false promise. It does matter.

Your repentance is required. The blood washes away your sin only when you sincerely repent of it, turn from it, are genuinely repulsed by it, and hope and pray never to do it again.

As for your verses, they say NOTHING about forgiveness that is granted whether you repent or not:

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

It does say IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.

Since you mention your wife, let me use that as an example. If you promised to remain faithful to her till death, and she to you, when you commit adultery, does that mean she broke her vow? No. Can she remain faithful, and the contract still be broken? Yes, you broke the contract. If she forgives you, does that mean you are free to commit adultery all you want now since you know you have been forgiven and nothing can separate you from her now? No. now you must try harder than ever to keep the new contract you have entered in with her which was a contract based on her grace and mercy.

.

 

[JM]

Eph. 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Col. 1:14 does not say "IF."

Since you mention your wife, let me use that as an example. If you promised to remain faithful to her till death, and she to you, when you commit adultery, does that mean she broke her vow? No. Can she remain faithful, and the contract still be broken? Yes, you broke the contract. If she forgives you, does that mean you are free to commit adultery all you want now since you know you have been forgiven and nothing can separate you from her now? No. now you must try harder than ever to keep the new contract you have entered in with her which was a contract based on her grace and mercy.

Based on a false idea of what is being promised and who is making the promise. Salvation is being promised and God is making the promise...unless you're saying God is unfaithful?

:roll:

 

[unred typo]

Eph. 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Col. 1:14 does not say "IF."

Who was Ephesians written to:
Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (that would be those who have been sealed because of their faith in Christ) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:â€Â

Only the faithful in Christ will inherit eternal life, JM.

And look closer at verse 4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:â€Â

This is the condition of his choosing anyone. He chooses only those who are IN CHRIST and those who are in him, that they should be holy and without blame in love. IOW, that “being holy and without blame in love†is a requirement for being chosen, and this has been made possible for anyone who repents by the blood of Christ.

This is shown clearly to be the case in Ephesians 1:13 “In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promiseâ€Â

I didn’t mean that Colossians 1:14 said ‘if’. I see that was confusing. You’re right. I should have said; “Scripture, not “Itâ€Â, does say IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.†That would be 1 John 1:9 IF you want to read it in context. The point I was trying to make which you failed to read was that neither of AV’s quoted verses say ANYTHING about forgiveness that is granted whether you repent or not and scripture is replete with verses that say, IF you repent, God will forgive.

:fadein:

 

[unred typo]

Based on a false idea of what is being promised and who is making the promise. Salvation is being promised and God is making the promise...unless you're saying God is unfaithful?

The promise is that IF you follow Christ and believe what he said to do in order to be saved, and do it, you will be saved because the blood (the free gift that needs nothing added to it in order to work at removing your sin when you repent), will keep you clean as snow. It’s a covenant between the believer and the Lord. He will most assuredly keep his promise. He will be faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, IF we confess our sins.

 

[unred typo]

The point is that the Christian's lifestyle will be characterized by love and obedience, not that you will never sin. The entire book of first John must be understood in that light lest we misunderstand 1 John 3:9 - "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

This was an interesting quote that Mr.V put in somewhere else that makes sense to me:

MrVersatile48 wrote (quoted) in another thread:
John is well known for using words rich in meaning & for subtleties which are hard to translate into English
I'm sure that explains apparent contradictions
To use the picture of archery, (that comes up in different Greek words for sin), God knows when we aim to please God but fall short of the mark
& when we just don't care about God's aims or attempt to share them, but just wilfully stampede across His guidelines, that are intended for our good, & choose to shoot at Him, to hurt Him in deliberate rebellion, & not stand shoulder to shoulder with Him & shoot against the enemy of souls

That gives a pretty good picture of the difference in the quality of different sins. The intent of the heart changes everything, don't you think?
:smt102 :smt063

 

[unred typo]

I agree with AV. Yes, a true believer can sin all they want, but they will not get any of the crowns and rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. Also, a believer can lose fellowship with the Father if they don't use 1 John 1:9 to repent, but the relationship cannot be broken because we serve a God who doesn't break covenants. Old or New.

No crowns, no fellowship, no love, no rewards, no eternal life… at least not in heaven.

John 15:10 "IF you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love".

Romans 8:11 “But IF the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.â€Â

1 John 3:24 “And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.â€Â

James 1:12"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."


God doesn’t break his covenant with us ever, but some of us will break their covenant with him, if indeed they ever made a covenant with him at all. Some of us don’t seem to even know that they had any obligations in the covenant they supposedly made with God. Some say they didn’t have to repent of their sin, while others say they had to repent but only long enough to get the guarantee of eternal life, then they were free to sin at will. Why don’t you try that with your wife? Tell her she was the one who promised to be faithful and you get to commit adultery but she has to forgive you and pretend nothing’s wrong and never break the marriage contract. Good idea. Sounds like the perfect marriage to me.
:roll:

 

[Jay T]

The criteria given was that God had done the work - Given God did he is saved.

1. Repentance does not justify - God justifies - when will you folks get this? :roll:

2. I never said one should not repent of any sin but repentace does not justify. Repenting is turning away. You turnig away does not justify.

A regenerated man is a new creature - he would be more likely not continue but there is no guarantee. Now - are we going to rate sins from small to large? Sounds like that is what you folks do because you sin every day - Do you repent of every one????

ONLY those who overcome sin, as Jesus Christ did, will keep their names in the Book of Life, after the Investigative Judgment, is over with......

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.........
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne".

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

And, the Gospel, includes, keeping the commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) , just as Jesus Christ said.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. ONLY those who overcome sin, as Jesus Christ did, will keep their names in the Book of Life, after the Investigative Judgment, is over with......

2. Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.........
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne".

3. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?

4. And, the Gospel, includes, keeping the commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) , just as Jesus Christ said.

Jay - I respond to your post not that you will understand nor will you believe or accept it but below is for those unsuspecting souls who made read this thread.

1. This is called a works salvation - the saint today is under grace - Eph. 2:8, 9

2. Doctrinally directed to those in the future great tribulation - if you are going to be running through the tribulation then these passages will be for you but for now they have nothing to do doctrinally for the blood-bought saint in this age of grace.

3. The house of God in the context is Israel - the time period again doctrinally is the future great tribulation - see #2

4. The Gospel whereby one is saved today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 and nowhere are the OT commandments included. If one is going to seek to keep the commndmetns today then he can't and won't plus he might as well keep the whole law while they are at it....
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

My how the scrptures will straighten out doctrine

I kind of enjoyed that 8-)