My Challenge is.....

[cyberjosh]

My how the scrptures will straighten out doctrine

I have a question though, since you posts have been a little ambiguous on this point: What do you think salvation and grace is for?

The Bible makes it clear that grace's primary function is not to cover over our sins for us but to empower us to stomp on sin ourselves (sanctification). You can use grace in vain and grace is power from God so it is much more than a lofty concept. Do you take into account these portrayals of grace in which we are called to use it to actively pursure righteousness?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. What do you think salvation and grace is for?

2. Do you take into account these portrayals of grace in which we are called to use it to actively pursure righteousness?

1. Salvation for our sin and sins? Not exactly sure what you are looking for here.
Grace is whereby we are saved and for how we live. My emphasisi here has always been justification first and then the Christian walk. I've been spending more time on the first but people keep trying to make their walk the basis for their justification.

Not sure I follow here - please rephrase for an old man - thanks

If I read you right then we are by grace to pursue a practical righteousness down here understanding that positionally we already have been made righteous in Christ by his death and resurrection.

God bless

 

[stovebolts]

1. Salvation for our sin and sins? Not exactly sure what you are looking for here.
Grace is whereby we are saved and for how we live. My emphasisi here has always been justification first and then the Christian walk. I've been spending more time on the first but people keep trying to make their walk the basis for their justification

.

Do you agree or disagree that ones walk cannot be seperated from one's justification?
Do you agree or disagree that one can be justified withot the walk?

 

[golfjack]

reply

The judgment of the believers sins: ( John 5:24). The lord tells us that a believer shall not comeinto judgment. Our sins were judged in Christ on Calvary, and every believer has passed from death into life (v. 24). This is our present salvation. Christ paid for our sins. He was judged in the believer's stead. The believer will not come into judgment because

1. Jesus Christ paid the penalty. On the grounds of His substituitionary death, The believer is separated from his sins forever ( Ps. 103:12).

2. The sins of the believer have been blotted out, and God has promised that He will not remember your sins ( Is. 43:25).

3. Our Lord suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that we might be saved and never come into judgment as sinners ( 1 Pet. 3:18).

4. The believer will never be condemned with the world, because Christ was condemned in his place. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us ( 2 Cor. 5:21). Christ was made a curse for us on the cross, and has redeemed us from the curse of the law ( Gal. 3:13). He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself ( Heb. 9:26). The believer will not come into judgment, because his sins have been purged ( Heb. 1:3).


May God bless, golfjack

 

[golfjack]

reply

Now that we have learned that a believers sins have already been judged by God. Let's llook at the judgment of the believers self ( 1 Cor. 31-32): The believers self-judgment means more than judging things in the believers life. When a believer judges his life, the good and bad in his life come to light; He confesses the bad ( 1 John 1:9) and forsakes it ( Is. 55:7). However, it is not enough just to judge sin in the believer; he must judge self.

1. To judge self is to practice self-abnegation; for when the believer sees self as God sees him, he will renounce self. It is replacing the self-life with the Christ-life ( Col. 3:4) Christ is the believers life.

2. To judge self is to deny self. This is more than self-denial. Self-denial is denying one's self of fleshly gratifications. If we practice self-denial only, it is treating the sympton and not the illness. But when we deny self, we are attacking the root problem, for in self ( in the flesh) nothing good dwells ( Rom. 7:18). To deny self is to take up our cross and follow Christ ( Mark 8:34-38) to lose the self life, and find the Christ life ( Gal. 2:20).

3. To judge self is to become less and less self conscious, and more Christ-conscious ( Matt. 28:20).

4. To judge sellf is to become Christ-controlled ( Acts. 9:6).

5. To judge self is to esteem others better than self ( Phil. 2:3) to become selfless.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[JM]

Who was Ephesians written to:
Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (that would be those who have been sealed because of their faith in Christ) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:â€Â

You missed "by the will of God..."

Only the faithful in Christ will inherit eternal life, JM.

Never posted anything different.

And look closer at verse 4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:â€Â

This is the condition of his choosing anyone. He chooses only those who are IN CHRIST and those who are in him, that they should be holy and without blame in love. IOW, that “being holy and without blame in love†is a requirement for being chosen, and this has been made possible for anyone who repents by the blood of Christ.

Wow, you underlined the cause and not the effect to highlight your own doctrine. "According as he hath chosen us..." what about the "he hath chosen us?"

This is shown clearly to be the case in Ephesians 1:13 “In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promiseâ€Â

Didn't post anything different. Those who are drawn by the Father will come to Christ thru the Gospel and be sealed.

I didn’t mean that Colossians 1:14 said ‘if’. I see that was confusing. You’re right. I should have said; “Scripture, not “Itâ€Â, does say IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.†That would be 1 John 1:9 IF you want to read it in context. The point I was trying to make which you failed to read was that neither of AV’s quoted verses say ANYTHING about forgiveness that is granted whether you repent or not and scripture is replete with verses that say, IF you repent, God will forgive.

:fadein:

I posted it before and I'll post it again, AV's the man! He understands this topic inside and out.

jm

 

[unred typo]

Who was Ephesians written to:
Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (that would be those who have been sealed because of their faith in Christ) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:â€Â

You missed "by the will of God..."

Not relevant to the topic, JM. Paul was chosen as an apostle by the will of God. Do you know why? Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 1:12-13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul had a zeal for God and he wasn’t a hypocrite. What he did against Christ was because he sincerely believed that he was doing the will of God and that Jesus was an imposter and not the Son of God in the flesh. God knew his heart and that once he was converted, he would work as tirelessly for the Lord Jesus. Guess what? Right again.

Only the faithful in Christ will inherit eternal life, JM.

Never posted anything different.

Right. You believe that God keeps the elect faithful, even if they sin like sailors in Singapore on shore leave.

And look closer at verse 4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:â€Â
This is the condition of his choosing anyone. He chooses only those who are IN CHRIST and those who are in him, that they should be holy and without blame in love. IOW, that “being holy and without blame in love†is a requirement for being chosen, and this has been made possible for anyone who repents by the blood of Christ.

Wow, you underlined the cause and not the effect to highlight your own doctrine. "According as he hath chosen us..." what about the "he hath chosen us?"

He has chosen us in Christ, JM. As long as we are in Christ, we abide in life. He that has the Son has life and he who has not the Son of God has not life. Abiding in Christ and the doctrines of Christ is the stipulation for being chosen by God. I had to highlight it because all you want to see is the fact that God ‘chose,’ not the reason he chose. When you’re looking for loopholes, you can find them. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get away with it. How shall we escape if we neglect such great salvation?

This is shown clearly to be the case in Ephesians 1:13 “In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promiseâ€Â

Didn't post anything different. Those who are drawn by the Father will come to Christ thru the Gospel and be sealed.

Your verse is about the disciples that God chose. This is the one that pertains to us:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I didn’t mean that Colossians 1:14 said ‘if’. I see that was confusing. You’re right. I should have said; “Scripture, not “Itâ€Â, does say IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.†That would be 1 John 1:9 IF you want to read it in context. The point I was trying to make which you failed to read was that neither of AV’s quoted verses say ANYTHING about forgiveness that is granted whether you repent or not and scripture is replete with verses that say, IF you repent, God will forgive.

I posted it before and I'll post it again, AV's the man! He understands this topic inside and out.

jm

Way to slide around the point without tackling it. Did you learn that sidestep maneuver from AV too?


.

 

[unred typo]

The judgment of the believers sins: ( John 5:24). The lord tells us that a believer shall not comeinto judgment. Our sins were judged in Christ on Calvary, and every believer has passed from death into life (v. 24). This is our present salvation. Christ paid for our sins. He was judged in the believer's stead. The believer will not come into judgment because

1. Jesus Christ paid the penalty. On the grounds of His substituitionary death, The believer is separated from his sins forever ( Ps. 103:12).

2. The sins of the believer have been blotted out, and God has promised that He will not remember your sins ( Is. 43:25).

3. Our Lord suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that we might be saved and never come into judgment as sinners ( 1 Pet. 3:18).

4. The believer will never be condemned with the world, because Christ was condemned in his place. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us ( 2 Cor. 5:21). Christ was made a curse for us on the cross, and has redeemed us from the curse of the law ( Gal. 3:13). He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself ( Heb. 9:26). The believer will not come into judgment, because his sins have been purged ( Heb. 1:3).

John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.â€Â

That’s great but I think you have a slightly altered view of what it means to ‘believe’ in God or Christ. If you ‘believe’ in your doctor, and he tells you to take two of these and call me in the morning, what do you do? Let me give you the answer. If you ‘believe in him,’ you do what he says and follow it carefully as if your life depended on it.

You know you always seem to quit reading before you get to the good part, jack. Read on:
“28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.â€Â

Now on to your second post, or should we just go to
http://www.morningstarranch.org/lesson6.html or some other web site? Did you cut and paste that all yourself or is that your own web site? We might as well just read it there in living color, don’t you think?
:roll:

1. To judge self is to practice self-abnegation; for when the believer sees self as God sees him, he will renounce self. It is replacing the self-life with the Christ-life ( Col. 3:4) Christ is the believers life.

yeah, what he said. Kinda like replacing someone else's words for your own, without giving them credit, not that anyone here would do that.

 

[mutzrein]

And all credit to ya unred :-D

 

[Jay T]

Jay - I respond to your post not that you will understand nor will you believe or accept it but below is for those unsuspecting souls who made read this thread.

1. This is called a works salvation - the saint today is under grace - Eph. 2:8, 9

Why did you leave off the last part of Ephesians 2:8,9....which reads as follows...... Ephsians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

4. The Gospel whereby one is saved today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 and nowhere are the OT commandments included.

Then why did the Apostler Paul tell Timothy, that Salvation was found, thru Jesus Christ .....in the Old Testament ?
2 Tomothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Salvation, thru Jesus Christ, is NOT a New Testament concepot !!!
King David said: Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
THAT IS....THE VERY ESSENCE OF SALVATION...... 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.

If one is going to seek to keep the commndmetns today then he can't and won't plus he might as well keep the whole law while they are at it....
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[/quote]That's right !
That is why the Bible says: Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To be coverted, the Law of God must be consulted......
Psalms 19:7 "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple".

The 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) plays a part, in every persons conversion process.

REMEMBER......the Law does not....save anyone !!!
Its only purpose, is to point out what sin is (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7).

BUT, without the Law, thee is no such thing as sin.......
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

If there is no law, you cannot commit sin....and, therefore you have no need of Jesus Christ, as a Savior !
Because the Savior Jesus Christ came to do what ?

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

BUT, without Law, there is no sins !

ALL 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) will be used on God's Judgment Day....to see who will get into heaven or not (Eccl. 12:13,14 & James 2:10-12).

AND.... it is as James 2:10-12 says....if a person breka just one of the commandments, they are guilty of breaking them all !

 

[Jay T]

quote="AVBunyan"]
Jay - I respond to your post not that you will understand nor will you believe or accept it but below is for those unsuspecting souls who made read this thread.

1. This is called a works salvation - the saint today is under grace - Eph. 2:8, 9[/quote]
Why did you leave off the last part of Ephesians 2:8,9....which reads as follows...... Ephsians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

4. The Gospel whereby one is saved today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 and nowhere are the OT commandments included.

Then why did the Apostler Paul tell Timothy, that Salvation was found, thru Jesus Christ .....in the Old Testament ?
2 Tomothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Salvation, thru Jesus Christ, is NOT a New Testament concepot !!!
King David said: Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
THAT IS....THE VERY ESSENCE OF SALVATION...... 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.

If one is going to seek to keep the commndmetns today then he can't and won't plus he might as well keep the whole law while they are at it....
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[/quote]That's right !
That is why the Bible says: Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To be coverted, the Law of God must be consulted......
Psalms 19:7 "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple".

The 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) plays a part, in every persons conversion process.

REMEMBER......the Law does not....save anyone !!!
Its only purpose, is to point out what sin is (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7).

BUT, without the Law, thee is no such thing as sin.......
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

If there is no law, you cannot commit sin....and, therefore you have no need of Jesus Christ, as a Savior !
Because the Savior Jesus Christ came to do what ?

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

BUT, without Law, there is no sins !

ALL 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) will be used on God's Judgment Day....to see who will get into heaven or not (Eccl. 12:13,14 & James 2:10-12).

AND.... it is as James 2:10-12 says....if a person breka just one of the commandments, they are guilty of breaking them all !

 

[Jay T]

The criteria given was that God had done the work - Given God did he is saved.

1. Repentance does not justify - God justifies - when will you folks get this? :roll:

2. I never said one should not repent of any sin but repentace does not justify. Repenting is turning away. You turnig away does not justify.

A regenerated man is a new creature - he would be more likely not continue but there is no guarantee. Now - are we going to rate sins from small to large? Sounds like that is what you folks do because you sin every day - Do you repent of every one????

SALVATION, is described in Romans 6........
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?

Matthew 1:21 " And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins".

 

[unred typo]

And all credit to ya unred

I’m not interested in your praise, however duplicitous it is, mutz. :wink: And I’m sure you meant that in in sincerity so I’ll just take it as it was offered and not let it go to my head.

What do you think of the topic? Give me your honest opinion, and stop holding back just to be nice. I guarantee I won’t give you a litany of canned cut and pastes from someone else that you have to wade through to find out it really isn‘t an answer but a generic regurgitation of some multiuse sermonette from an old file or other unknown source. Forgive me, but I really have lost patience with those type of posts. Maybe it’s because I resent the use of so much of my snowman making time in here reading the same bad theology rehashed and reheated and dumped in nauseating abundance. I could be building a snow fort with my grandson. In fact….
:-D

 

[JM]

Not relevant to the topic, JM. Paul was chosen as an apostle by the will of God. Do you know why? Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 1:12-13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

It’s absolutely relevant to the verse you quoted.

You can’t be serious! You quote 1 Timothy as a proof text out of context…â€ÂAnd I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, WHO HATH ENABLED ME…â€Â

Paul had a zeal for God and he wasn’t a hypocrite. What he did against Christ was because he sincerely believed that he was doing the will of God and that Jesus was an imposter and not the Son of God in the flesh. God knew his heart and that once he was converted, he would work as tirelessly for the Lord Jesus. Guess what? Right again.

Because God “HATH ENABLED†Paul to do the tireless WORK.

Right. You believe that God keeps the elect faithful, even if they sin like sailors in Singapore on shore leave.

Wrong. You keep making posts that have nothing to do with what I’ve posted. Who is this make believe “JM†you keep having conversations with? I never wrote anything that would lead you or anyone else to jump to such conclusions. You need to deal with the facts of what I posted. You’re so anti-Grace that you’ll even misrepresent what I and others have posted to appeal to the emotions, rather then facts.

I must insist that you refrain from making any further posts on this subject, it’s oblivious you can’t deal with the facts surrounding this topic and you’re really making yourself look shifty.

He has chosen us in Christ, JM. As long as we are in Christ, we abide in life. He that has the Son has life and he who has not the Son of God has not life. Abiding in Christ and the doctrines of Christ is the stipulation for being chosen by God. I had to highlight it because all you want to see is the fact that God ‘chose,’ not the reason he chose. When you’re looking for loopholes, you can find them. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get away with it. How shall we escape if we neglect such great salvation?

You already quoted a text to prove my point: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame because of the love of God. We abide in him because as Paul stated in Romans 7 that no matter what we do the Law of sin is present in us.

Your verse is about the disciples that God chose. This is the one that pertains to us:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The drawing of all men is for judgement…compare with John 6:37 where we find that those who are drawn are in no wise cast out. Either you’re advocating universalism or John 12:32 is speaking of general judgement.

Way to slide around the point without tackling it. Did you learn that sidestep maneuver from AV too?

Talk about sliding off point, this is a sidestep. You can’t handle the truth we are presenting and you have presented a case against what you “thinkââ‚ we believe and not the facts of what we believe.

I can’t be adamant enough, please refrain from posting about the doctrines of Grace, you’ve proven you know nothing about it.

~JM~

 

[mutzrein]

I’m not interested in your praise, however duplicitous it is, mutz. :wink: And I’m sure you meant that in in sincerity so I’ll just take it as it was offered and not let it go to my head.

What do you think of the topic? Give me your honest opinion, and stop holding back just to be nice. I guarantee I won’t give you a litany of canned cut and pastes from someone else that you have to wade through to find out it really isn‘t an answer but a generic regurgitation of some multiuse sermonette from an old file or other unknown source. Forgive me, but I really have lost patience with those type of posts. Maybe it’s because I resent the use of so much of my snowman making time in here reading the same bad theology rehashed and reheated and dumped in nauseating abundance. I could be building a snow fort with my grandson. In fact….
:-D

I'll have to come back to the topic due to my need to spend time on some other rewarding activities :wink: - not holding back in particularly - nor am I intentionally nice. I guess it is my nature to be gracious but I cant stand the self righteousness that I see some displaying. Anyway - off into the sunshine for a while for a bit of R&R. :D

 

[cyberjosh]

1. Salvation for our sin and sins? Not exactly sure what you are looking for here.
Grace is whereby we are saved and for how we live. My emphasisi here has always been justification first and then the Christian walk. I've been spending more time on the first but people keep trying to make their walk the basis for their justification.

Justification is a fine emphasis but we have to keep in mind here what is important and practical. The way by which one can be assured of their salvation, regardless of what they or anyone else has told them, is the change in one's lifestyle - the witnessing of God's grace in you. And God's grace will change you over time provided you don't resist it and that you actively pursue righteousness. We are enabled to do that of no merit of our own, but by God's gracious justification, and then with justification comes an obligation to follow righteousness.

Not sure I follow here - please rephrase for an old man - thanks

Yessir grandpa! ;)

If I read you right then we are by grace to pursue a practical righteousness down here understanding that positionally we already have been made righteous in Christ by his death and resurrection.

Absolutely. We have our positional santification/justification before God but we are responsible for our personal progressive sanctification here on earth to perfect holiness.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1)

 

[mutzrein]

My challenge to the modern Christian world is, to get back to believing the Bible.

The trouble with 'believing the bible' is that many think that in doing so they become a Christian.

 

[unred typo]

The trouble with 'believing the bible' is that many think that in doing so they become a Christian.

Very astute observation, Mutzrein. You’re right. When Jesus preached the gospel, there were only believers and unbelievers. Since very few understood that their new messiah was going to be their sacrifice for sin, the only message they had was Jesus’ teaching of love for God and one another from the heart, not just in words.

Jesus warned them that just believing his message didn’t make them righteous, but actually doing the works that he had proclaimed in his message is what made them righteous before God. The reason that he had to offer up his own body for a sacrifice was because no other person could do these perfect laws to perfection and any sin, even the sins in thought, would be breaking the New Covenant law that he preached. Now we know the rest of the story: Those who believe in him, follow what he says to do and if they fall short, they have to repent and trust in the blood to cleanse them as they continue in obedience to him and do what he said in order to be saved.
( Romans 2:6-9 )

 

[Jay T]

The trouble with 'believing the bible' is that many think that in doing so they become a Christian.

Without the Bible, there is no Born-again experience !

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[unred typo]

You can’t be serious! You quote 1 Timothy as a proof text out of context…â€ÂAnd I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, WHO HATH ENABLED ME…â€Â
Because God “HATH ENABLED†Paul to do the tireless WORK.

That’s right, God has enabled all of us to do something. Paul was enabled to preach the gospel by Jesus who taught him personally everything he needed to know, and God even providing opportunities to do tent making so he could support himself on his missionary journeys. You have been enabled by God to do all that he requires of you, therefore don’t say you don’t have to do it for your salvation, it’s just for rewards. That idea will just take the wind out of your sails. He says it is for salvation; you better believe that.

If you don’t do what he commands, loving and good deeds of faith and mercy, it’s not because you needed further instruction or assistance from him. You have arms and hands, a mind and a body to do his good deeds here on earth. I bet you even have been enabled financially to help the poor and starving in other countries. It’s not a free ride, it’s a cross to bear. Work tirelessly for others and your work will be blessed by God.

Wrong. You keep making posts that have nothing to do with what I’ve posted. Who is this make believe “JM†you keep having conversations with? I never wrote anything that would lead you or anyone else to jump to such conclusions. You need to deal with the facts of what I posted. You’re so anti-Grace that you’ll even misrepresent what I and others have posted to appeal to the emotions, rather then facts.

The reality of what you believe does stir the emotions, doesn’t it, JM? When are you going to put meaning into your words? Calvinist/Reformed theories have horrific implications, whether you want to face them or not. I guess the “JM†I post to is make believe. I imagine him to be someone who can own up to what these beliefs actually say. That “JM†wrote: “What sin is it that causes someone to be "unborn again?" What sin separates us from the love of God?†(Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:09 am) You see the reality of that statement is that “God keeps the elect faithful, even if they sin like sailors in Singapore on shore leave.†Since you have quoted that verse in Romans 8, I don’t suppose you would like to find exactly where ‘our sin’ is listed in the things Paul says cannot separate us from God‘s love? You can easily find ‘our sin’ in this verse in Isaiah though:

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

You already quoted a text to prove my point: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame because of the love of God. We abide in him because as Paul stated in Romans 7 that no matter what we do the Law of sin is present in us.

Actually, it says that we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world. That’s like saying, Mr. Byrd, of the Audubon Society, is going to give honorary memberships to all the ones who join the bird watching club of the local high school for as long as the club exists. All you who are in the bird watching club, were chosen to get an honorary membership in the Audubon Society, and this was decided before the club was even founded, that you should be blameless bird lovers and not bird hunters. We are chosen because of the love of God, but he wishes to save everyone, not willing that any should perish. The thing he wants is for us to be blameless in our love for others and in holiness (Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord).

I must insist that you refrain from making any further posts on this subject, it’s oblivious you can’t deal with the facts surrounding this topic and you’re really making yourself look shifty.

I appreciate your concern for my image but it’s really unnecessary. It really doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of me here or anywhere else. If someone can see the light through our discussions, that’s what’s important.

The drawing of all men is for judgement…compare with John 6:37 where we find that those who are drawn are in no wise cast out. Either you’re advocating universalism or John 12:32 is speaking of general judgement.

Really? Look at the verse below. Who is driven out? Who is drawn? Whose sins are judged?

John 12:31-33 Jesus said, "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.â€Â

Talk about sliding off point, this is a sidestep. You can’t handle the truth we are presenting and you have presented a case against what you “think†we believe and not the facts of what we believe.
I can’t be adamant enough, please refrain from posting about the doctrines of Grace, you’ve proven you know nothing about it.

*Looking… searching through your reply for an answer to my point*….. Nope, no answer again…just a way out, for you. It’s a good thing we’re not in the one-on-one debate forum. You’d have to answer for that… Aren’t you glad I chickened out now?



(':smt117')