My Challenge is.....

[JM]

That’s right, God has enabled all of us to do something.

That's the first step, if only you quite while ahead... :eggface:

~JM~

 

[unred typo]

That's the first step, if only you quite while ahead... :eggface:

~JM~

Yup… every human has been given abilities to use to walk in love and good works, and Paul was no different. He was given the special commission to be the apostle to the Gentiles and God enabled him to go about doing that, but that isn’t to say that he wasn’t chosen because of his zeal of God shown when he was against Christ.

Is that egg on your face, JM?

:wink:

 

[JM]

Yup… every human has been given abilities to use to walk in love and good works, and Paul was no different. He was given the special commission to be the apostle to the Gentiles and God enabled him to go about doing that, but that isn’t to say that he wasn’t chosen because of his zeal of God shown when he was against Christ.

Is that egg on your face, JM?

:wink:

That is direct contradiction to what you wrote and what the Bible teaches... :rocol:

Take me to your leader!

:

 

[Jay T]

That is direct contradiction to what you wrote and what the Bible teaches... :rocol:

Take me to your leader!

:

May I jump in here.....after all, this is the thread I statrted.
Paul taught the Old Testament scriptures, as a foundation to the New Testament, which he was writing.
Both OT and NT are in complete harmony with each other....when read in as a whole.

There is not one part more essential than another....as both Jesus Christ and Paul pointed out, that salvation, is found in the OT also !

 

[mutzrein]

Without the Bible, there is no Born-again experience !

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Which bible is that Jay T?

 

[unred typo]

That is direct contradiction to what you wrote and what the Bible teaches... :rocol:

Take me to your leader!

:

I'm trying to. My leader is Christ, even though I run ahead and get off the path at times.

You said I contradicted myself, JM, and since I know I didn’t, I have to look closer at what I said that gave you that impression. Obviously, I didn’t express something clearly. This will take a bit of effort, so if you don’t want to understand my position, just skip down and write a cutting remark in reply. That’s fine. I’m used to that reaction. I’m getting better at not responding in the same fashion, but not good enough to go to debate such a volatile issue as Calvinism or Reformed theology, as you can see by my previous posts in this vein. I will stick by what I said, but not by the way I said it. I could have been gentler in my correction of your cherished beliefs. Your chiding was deserved. We could both reread Romans 2 and heed the admonitions there to circumcise our hearts, knowing God will judge.

That’s right, God has enabled all of us to do something. Paul was enabled to preach the gospel by Jesus who taught him personally everything he needed to know, and God even providing opportunities to do tent making so he could support himself on his missionary journeys. You have been enabled by God to do all that he requires of you, therefore don’t say you don’t have to do it for your salvation, it’s just for rewards. That idea will just take the wind out of your sails. He says it is for salvation; you better believe that.

If you don’t do what he commands, loving and good deeds of faith and mercy, it’s not because you needed further instruction or assistance from him. You have arms and hands, a mind and a body to do his good deeds here on earth. I bet you even have been enabled financially to help the poor and starving in other countries. It’s not a free ride, it’s a cross to bear. Work tirelessly for others and your work will be blessed by God.

Compared to what I wrote next:

Yup… every human has been given abilities to use to walk in love and good works, and Paul was no different. He was given the special commission to be the apostle to the Gentiles and God enabled him to go about doing that, but that isn’t to say that he wasn’t chosen because of his zeal of God shown when he was against Christ.

Let me just restate it since I’m still baffled by your accusation.

First, we all, believers and unbelievers alike, have been given enough light and abilities to understand and obey the gospel of Christ which is ‘love for God and one another,’ and we all, even mentally impaired people and children, can understand this message from God and be saved by doing it. Since this is the case, let no one try to say that they don‘t understand the gospel or make the mistake that “doing good works is not necessary for salvation, and that it is only for rewards.†It is for your salvation. Doing good works of love and faith is obeying the gospel. That is exactly what ‘believing in Christ’ is: doing what he says. Every person has this ability from a child upward. We all have the ability to repent, love one another and obey the gospel.

Hopefully having said that clearly, what do these verses mean that sound like God has chosen some to believe and not others? That is a legitimate question because such confusing verses are fairly common in scripture. These scriptures don’t mean that some have been given a special mental or spiritual powers to be saved, but they do mean that some have been given a unique gift to teach or heal or do some special assignment for God (not always a pleasant one, so don‘t be jealous). They have been chosen for some task, but it is not to be ‘saved.’ What you have done is take these verses and applied them to salvation, making it appear that God chose some for salvation and not others. That’s just wrong.

Paul was a man who, before he was given the commission to speak for Christ, had a heart for God, to obey him explicitly. If you will notice, at Stephen’s stoning, he held the coats. His heart was not full of hate for God and man but he actually thought he was doing God’s will and he wanted to obey God so he consented to Stephen’s death. He sincerely believed Jesus was an imposter and liar and that Stephen was preaching against God. When he found out that Jesus truly was the Son of God, he fell down in obedience to him. God chose Paul because of this obedience to God; this misdirected zeal for truth.

If you have a zeal for God, he will choose you for some job for him too. Satan will try to direct your zeal into a doctrinal errors that will hurt the cause of Christ, but if you walk in love and trust in the blood to cleanse you from all unrighteousness, you will be saved but your unscriptural teaching will earn no rewards. I think Peter was originally chosen to be the apostle to the Gentiles but later, he was set aside and given a ministry among the Jews, because he got sidetracked by Satan for a while.
Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If you, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

What is falling away into a state of “losing salvation� When you decide that Jesus is not the true Son of God, and you refuse his message of love and forgiveness, turning on your fellowman in hatred and having a lust after evil things, instead of having a love and zeal for God and his truth. How completely you have embraced this ungodliness determines whether you have gone past the point of no return. Surely you will suffer for it physically, emotionally and spiritually but to what extent, only God is your judge.

The OP is ââ‚Å“My challenge to the modern Christian world is, to get back to believing the Bible.†Good admonishment. Be sure and ask the Holy Spirit to interpret what you are reading and don’t rely only on the teaching of men, because we can be mislead when we have preconceived unscriptural notions.

 

[unred typo]

Justification is a fine emphasis but we have to keep in mind here what is important and practical…
…We have our positional santification/justification before God but we are responsible for our personal progressive sanctification here on earth to perfect holiness.
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1)

I like the practical aspect of your post, cybershark, and the way you call on believers to step up to the plate right down here where we live. Some here think God has promised to do it all for us and our works are not a required part of our salvation. Those people have a warped view of verses like Philippians 2:13 :
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This should be taken as you say, in a practical way. God enables us to do his will the same way you enable your children to do your will. When a father gives his son a job to do, he doesn’t send him out to cut down a tree without an axe, and instructions how to do it. If he doesn’t obey, he gives him the will to do it by a whack of his hand or other punishment to fit the crime. When God gives you a job whether as simple as fixing an elderly neighbor‘s steps, or starting a food bank at your church, he is going to give you ample resources to accomplish that, even if you must sacrifice time, effort and materials of “your own†to do it.

He also doesn’t cause you to have faith by putting a glob of faith in your heart, and he doesn’t ‘give you the will’ to “do his good pleasure†by taking the controls to your will and doing it for you. If you refuse to follow through in something he has asked you to do, you may find he gives you the will to do it by some physical slap such as a dislocated back or some loss of privileges until you repent, (if you ever do.) If you continually harden your neck to his commands, you may find yourself gazing longingly at your own grave site. He has ways of making you wish you had obeyed, without supernaturally “giving you a new heartâ€Â, don‘t you agree?

When we read the Bible, we should take care to understand it contains instructions and actions for everyday lives, not hocus pocus, presto, change-o. If you’re sitting around waiting on God to give you the will to do something for him, don’t be surprised if he does it by taking away your health and any other distractions in your life. If he gives you some material blessings, don’t assume he wants to spoil you with an over abundance of goodies because you’re his favorite. It’s probably a test to see if you have learned how to share yet.

Thanks for pointing out that the practical side is the one that needs to be stressed, and not in the way that removes it from our plain understanding, and our day by day experiences.
':smt023'

 

[cyberjosh]

I like the practical aspect of your post, cybershark, and the way you call on believers to step up to the plate right down here where we live.

Indeed, thank you. I even emphasized this at a sermon I preached on youth night, about how God gives us grace not primarily to cover over sin but so that we can progress to accomplish God's will by sanctification. Grace is equivalent to God's power that he offers us "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." And grace unfortunately can be recieved in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1). So God doesn't do it for us, but he does gives us the grace necessary for righteous deeds at which point we can choose either to utilize or ignore it.

Some here think God has promised to do it all for us and our works are not a required part of our salvation. Those people have a warped view of verses like Philippians 2:13 :
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And most people leave off the preceeding verse which forms the cooperative paradox of those two verses:
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12)

God's grace and our actions go hand in hand. God initiates it and supplies us with the necessary grace, and if we utilize it we effectively are doing so through God's power thus is is God who purifies us and not ourselves of our own accord, though we make the effort and decision of yeilding our passions, thoughts, and actions to God to work in us.

This should be taken as you say, in a practical way. God enables us to do his will the same way you enable your children to do your will. When a father gives his son a job to do, he doesn’t send him out to cut down a tree without an axe, and instructions how to do it. If he doesn’t obey, he gives him the will to do it by a whack of his hand or other punishment to fit the crime. When God gives you a job whether as simple as fixing an elderly neighbor‘s steps, or starting a food bank at your church, he is going to give you ample resources to accomplish that, even if you must sacrifice time, effort and materials of “your own†to do it.

He also doesn’t cause you to have faith by putting a glob of faith in your heart, and he doesn’t ‘give you the will’ to “do his good pleasure†by taking the controls to your will and doing it for you. If you refuse to follow through in something he has asked you to do, you may find he gives you the will to do it by some physical slap such as a dislocated back or some loss of privileges until you repent, (if you ever do.) If you continually harden your neck to his commands, you may find yourself gazing longingly at your own grave site. He has ways of making you wish you had obeyed, without supernaturally “giving you a new heartâ€Â, don‘t you agree?

When we read the Bible, we should take care to understand it contains instructions and actions for everyday lives, not hocus pocus, presto, change-o. If you’re sitting around waiting on God to give you the will to do something for him, don’t be surprised if he does it by taking away your health and any other distractions in your life. If he gives you some material blessings, don’t assume he wants to spoil you with an over abundance of goodies because you’re his favorite. It’s probably a test to see if you have learned how to share yet.

Thanks for pointing out that the practical side is the one that needs to be stressed, and not in the way that removes it from our plain understanding, and our day by day experiences.

Very good explanation. Good points.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

In the new birth, God does purify our spirits, but we must purify our souls ( 1 Peter 1:22.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

In the new birth, God does purify our spirits, but we must purify our souls ( 1 Peter 1:22.



May God bless, golfjack

Wrong. God purifies the spirit, the soul, and the body completly through the blood of Jesus Christ. Man can do nothing to purify himself. 1 Peter 1:22 states that those who have heard the Word of God and believed "HAVE PURIFIED" their souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed. The body will remain corrupt and mortal until the return of Jesus Christ, but the inward man is born of God and does not sin for that which is born of God cannot sin. (1 John 3:9)

The body will be cleansed as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51 at the return of Jesus Christ.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1 Peter 1:13-25

 

[unred typo]

Sorry, Solo, but I’m going to have to agree with golf jack on this one. Even the highlighted part of your quote disagrees with you: “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.â€Â

Come now, you can’t say that means we have nothing to do to purify our souls. We purify our souls by obeying the truth with unfeigned fervent love for the brethren out of a pure heart. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us our sins. Even he that is washed, still has to keep his feet clean.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.

These verses demand action on the part of the believer.

The body will be cleansed as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51 at the return of Jesus Christ.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: …(highlight emphasis mine--unred typo)

We are supposed to fear God’s wrath and obey him, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to us when Christ returns. That is when everyone will see that the way Jesus told us to be saved by following his message of repentance, love and good deeds, did actually save those of us who, by patient continuance in good works, ( Romans 2 ) received eternal life in new glorified bodies.

So be you holy in all manner of conversation; (conversation here means ‘in our day by day living,’ not just talking about it.)

 

[Jay T]

Which bible is that Jay T?

Well, I use the King James Bible, as it has not been tampered with, by satan, quite as much, as the others.

 

[Solo]

Sorry, Solo, but I’m going to have to agree with golf jack on this one. Even the highlighted part of your quote disagrees with you: “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.â€Â

Come now, you can’t say that means we have nothing to do to purify our souls. We purify our souls by obeying the truth with unfeigned fervent love for the brethren out of a pure heart. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us our sins. Even he that is washed, still has to keep his feet clean.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.

These verses demand action on the part of the believer.




We are supposed to fear God’s wrath and obey him, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to us when Christ returns. That is when everyone will see that the way Jesus told us to be saved by following his message of repentance, love and good deeds, did actually save those of us who, by patient continuance in good works, ( Romans 2 ) received eternal life in new glorified bodies.

So be you holy in all manner of conversation; (conversation here means ‘in our day by day living,’ not just talking about it.)

Your understanding of being born again is causing you much error. When a sinner is born again, he is born of the Spirit, born from above. Perhaps you would like to explain your understanding of the inward man, and the flesh as Paul taught in Romans 7 and 8. Don't be concerned that you are in error. I was there as well when I did not understand justification, sanctification, and glorification. Most of the charismatics believe that they can loose the salvation that God provided them because they do not understand the grace that God has given us in the free gift of justification. All Christians are commanded to persevere in the righteousness provided them through Christ Jesus, and they are eternally kept in Christ Jesus, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:14

 

[mutzrein]

Well, I use the King James Bible, as it has not been tampered with, by satan, quite as much, as the others.

OK, I use the KJV too, but where does it say that without it there is no born-again experience?

 

[unred typo]

Perhaps you would like to explain your understanding of the inward man, and the flesh as Paul taught in Romans 7 and 8.

It’s like this. There’s a million rides to take that will get you from point A to point B in the flesh. We’re comfortable in the flesh. We have been taking orders from the flesh since day one. Too bad because there’s only one shuttle that goes to heaven. If you’re IN CHRIST, when you leave this body, you go to heaven with him. If you live in the flesh, and not in the Spirit, you will die. To live in the flesh is not the same as doing good deeds in our mortal bodies using the hands and feet God gave us. If fact, the doing good deeds of love, mercy and faith IS living in the Spirit and it is what it means to be abiding IN CHRIST. Living according to sinful lusts, giving in to greed, hate and revenge, is not abiding IN CHRIST.

So, if you want to go to heaven, you better be IN CHRIST. It really won't matter if you understand justification, sanctification, and glorification, or not, if you're not abiding in Christ, you'll never get to heaven.

 

[Solo]

Perhaps you would like to explain your understanding of the inward man, and the flesh as Paul taught in Romans 7 and 8.

It’s like this. There’s a million rides to take that will get you from point A to point B in the flesh. We’re comfortable in the flesh. We have been taking orders from the flesh since day one. Too bad because there’s only one shuttle that goes to heaven. If you’re IN CHRIST, when you leave this body, you go to heaven with him. If you live in the flesh, and not in the Spirit, you will die. To live in the flesh is not the same as doing good deeds in our mortal bodies using the hands and feet God gave us. If fact, the doing good deeds of love, mercy and faith IS living in the Spirit and it is what it means to be abiding IN CHRIST. Living according to sinful lusts, giving in to greed, hate and revenge, is not abiding IN CHRIST.

So, if you want to go to heaven, you better be IN CHRIST. It really won't matter if you understand justification, sanctification, and glorification, or not, if you're not abiding in Christ, you'll never get to heaven.

If you do not understand justification, then you most likely do not understand abiding IN CHRIST. I pose a simple question that is answered by the fundamental understanding of salvation, and you refuse to answer. Why is that?
If you would like to understand Paul's writings in Romans, let me know and I will teach you.

 

[Jay T]

OK, I use the KJV too, but where does it say that without it there is no born-again experience?

This is where a person has to use their brain....in finding the obvious.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If to be born-again requires the word of God, then the reverse is true......that without the Bible as the word of God, there cannot be any born-again experience.

Christ makes quite plain in HIS stsement:
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[cyberjosh]

Wrong. God purifies the spirit, the soul, and the body completly through the blood of Jesus Christ. Man can do nothing to purify himself. 1 Peter 1:22 states that those who have heard the Word of God and believed "HAVE PURIFIED" their souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed. The body will remain corrupt and mortal until the return of Jesus Christ, but the inward man is born of God and does not sin for that which is born of God cannot sin. (1 John 3:9)

The body will be cleansed as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51 at the return of Jesus Christ.

Actually Solo, without trying to sound arrogant, I think if you look at my treatment of this you'll see that I have it correct: that God's purification and our utilization of God's grace for purification work in tandem. "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). And we are empowered to do so by God's grace, which is effectually credited to God. We are also to work out our own salvation. Read my last post please. I attempt to explore this paradox.

And the reason that the Bible speaks so certainly of the saints having been purified is because any person who is truely saved will persevere and not apostacize, and will thus santify themselves with God's power. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7)

 

[mutzrein]

This is where a person has to use their brain....in finding the obvious.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If to be born-again requires the word of God, then the reverse is true......that without the Bible as the word of God, there cannot be any born-again experience.

Christ makes quite plain in HIS stsement:
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Fair enough, although I don't entirely agree with your reasoning. So, when the apostles / disciples / believers were born of the spirit (after Jesus returned to the Father and the holy spirit had been sent), which bible was the prerequisite for their birth?

 

[Oscar3]

Fair enough, although I don't entirely agree with your reasoning. So, when the apostles / disciples / believers were born of the spirit (after Jesus returned to the Father and the holy spirit had been sent), which bible was the prerequisite for their birth?

Mut
don't u know that the apostle Paul used the KJV to preach :-? everybody knows that? And another thing. When Jesus was preaching to nicodemas he too was quoting the KJV :wink: