GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Does the above mean that you totally reject the idea that Jesus was reciting the 22nd Psalm?
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MY GOD, MY GOD.... WHY Have You Forsaken Me?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I've always heard and learned that Jesus was referring to Psalm 22 in the sense that it starts out in despair but ends in hope and/or victory.
You're saying that it's meant in the sense of a prophecy being fulfilled.
Two different ideas....
Although Psalm 22 does speak of jesus...
I don't think He meant to say that He was fulfilling prophecy at that time...although this could be too.
Yes and No
No-The prophet by the Spirit saw ahead to Jesus's day. Those words were stated as Jesus felt. That is not the same as Jesus stating the words to fulfill Psalm 22
Yes -Those words were fulfilled in Jesus
Psalm 22
They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.
Isaiah 53
Isaiah saw ahead to Jesus's day.
Who has believed our message?
Related
John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Good point.
1.
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 Jesus cries out these words...
Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?
My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?!
The first sentence in Psalm 22:1
2.
Mathew 27:39
. 39And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads.
Psalm 22:7
7All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head,
3.
John 19:18a
18There they crucified Him,
Psalm 22:16b
16They have pierced my hands and feet.
4.
John 19:23
23Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece.
Psalm 22:18
18They divide my garments among them...
The soldiers also cast lots.
Psalm 18b
Jesus was also surrounded by "dogs",,,persons who stood and witnessed the walk to Golgotha and the crucifixion.
The thief said....if you are God...get down.
Psalm 22:8
I guess we could post the entire 22nd Psalm.
It's like a play that Jesus followed....
This means He knew from the cross that He was doing what He came to earth to do...and that it was His Father's will.
It was planned from the beginning of time....from Genesis 3:17.
What gave you that idea?
I've been replying to randy idea that Jesus didn't fully experience death and separation fromn God the father.
His body died so He died as a man dies. In all ways. His Spirit was made alive so He never dies. Which is what Jesus tells us. Though we were to die yet shall we live and never die. Jesus was alive in the Spirit before His bodily resurrection.
I don't believe Jesus was separated in the least from the Father. Not now or forever. The Father, as Jesus stated, is living in Him and He and the Father are one. God can not disown Himself.
So He fully experience death as the Son of Man but did not experience in the least separation from the One living in Him. The eternal Spirit of the Father.
And the testimony stated that Jesus did not enter the tabernacle on earth. The Heavenly things needed to be purified by better sacrifices as by Christ Himself.
It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence
The punishment for sin is separation from God. You are effectively saying that Jesus was not punished for the sin he bore and that the cry of 'My God, Why have you foresaken me.' was nothing more than his aproaching death and not the separation of God the Father from God the Son.
I disagree with your premise as you worded it. "The punishment for sin is separation from God"
Jesus died as a ransom -yes; separated from the Father -no
Jesus experienced death as a man would die. The law had punishments for sin. Death in this case. Jesus bore that punishment. In the utter agony of intense pain Jesus stated how He, Not the Father, felt. Its not possible for God to disown Himself. I did state the Father did not leave Jesus. Not ever. They are One. Jesus never dies. Put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit.
And Jesus was alive by the Spirit when He preached to the spirits in prison.
Atonement -purchased by His blood which was shed for the forgiveness of sin.
Jesus is depicted as a eternal High Priest appointed by God "forever" who entered the tabernacle in heaven by his blood to obtain eternal redemption for all those the Father gives Him.
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
dianegcook
Member
Jesus had no sin, all through the Bible, they were to sacrifice a lamb, without spot or blemish.
He was that sacrificial Lamb for all time.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Some theologians/biblical scholars believe that Jesus took upon Himself all the sins of the world and at that moment God Father did leave his presence.
I don't understand the Trinity and don't anyone who really does,,,so I don't have a firm opinion on this...It WAS a very distraught cry according to Mark and Mathew. It could have been a cry of abandonment....from God.....from His fellow Jews...the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees...
Or, it could have been psalm 22 which ends in victory.
dianegcook
Member
Well, as you know, all scholars do not agree.
As I have stated many times...
Psa.22:24
Neither hath He HID His face from Him.
So how could He leave His presence?
Did a regular lamb with no spot or blemish, in the O.T, take on the sins of the people?
It was an atonement. Rom.5:11 , Strong's 2643, Greek, meaning restoration, reconcile.
Exodus 30:10
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements....
Strong's #3722, Hebrew, meaning to cover, cleanse, forgive, pardon, reconcile...
Our sins are COVERED.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Well, if the first theory is right and Jesus was NOT repeating Psalm 22, then 22:24 would be of no value...
What some are saying is that He cried out in despair and was not quoting the psalm and did feel abandoned.
I just have no opinion. I don't think it's something we could be dogmatic about.
dianegcook
Member
Exactly, we can not leave any scripture out, to suit our dogma.
Again, how did God abandon Himself?
David wrote it, also the author of ,The Lord said unto my Lord, Psa.110:1
Heb.1:3
Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, purged our sins...
Either way we may look at it, will not cost us our salvation!
Or a 3rd option. The prophet saw ahead to Jesus's day. And by the Spirit wrote it down.
Just as Isaiah saw ahead to Jesus's day "Who has believed our message..."
Jesus stated emotionally how He, (not the Father) felt at that exact moment. The Father never left Him. God can't disown Himself.
related
John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him
John 8:6
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I agree. Psalm 22 was definitely a prophecy ....it speaks of Jesus very clearly.
Why then did he cry, 'Why have you foresaken me!'
As you say God the Father had not forsaken Jesus, they were still in communion.
In the OT when a lamb was sacrificed for sin. The owner laid his hand on the lamb, signifing both ownership and transferance of his sin to the lamb.
The lamb died symbolicaly bearing the owners sin.
The reality of what was being acted out for thousands of years happened at calvary.
Jesus the sinless Son of God bore ALL our Sin on his body and suffered the punishment that we should have suffered. He became sin.
He died physically and Spiritualy in our place.
He rose again to demonstrate that he had dealt with our sin, our punishment and as a sign that we too have eturnal life.
JohnDB
Member
I agree with a lot you say here except the part about Jesus dying spiritually. God cannot die or lie.
And would like to add in the theme of Hebrews (which includes the 110 Psalm) of how this Blood was used to institute a New and better Covenant.
JohnDB
Member
It's the "tag line" or call line from the 22nd Psalm. We, (since the 1400's) number the chapters. Never had that happened before.
And everyone before this was too scared to do so.
But to reference a particular passage someone would call out the "tag line" of a song or passage.