My test for doctrine ---

[Yahoshea]

When someone asks me to believe a particular doctrine there is always two questions I ask first.
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?
How does their doctrine help me develop the character of God in me. (as Christ did)

In most cases I receive dumb looks in response to those questions. I suspect I have received those same looks when others read these questions in my posts. I find that to show a sad state of affairs for Christianity. The primary goal of Christianity is to be a follower of Christ. To follow in his steps as scripture says. To become like Christ is our purpose for existence. It should be the driving force behind every search for doctrine/teaching. Instead what we often see is an endless diatribe of intellectualized philosophy on scriptural subjects.



Perhaps I am an oddball. I believe it is really possible to become like Christ and be his perfected bride. Because of this I am not so much interested in what people think they can prove from scripture because if it does not promote the plan of God for my life it is just fluff and stuff.
God is not arbitruary. He does not teach doctrines that have no purpose toward his plan. That would be a waste of his and our time.
By concentrating on fulfilling God’s plan in my life I ultimately give glory to God. He will receive glory in His perfected Children.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

AMEN!!! excellenT post and two VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS! i TOO AGREE WE ARE TO BE CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST.AND CAN BE MADE PERFECT- SPOTLESS BRIDE. SORRY FOR THE CAPS

 

[seekandlisten]

Great post, and I agree entirely. If only more people could get past the hang ups of doctrine and irrelevant debates.

 

[mutzrein]

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

 

[Yahoshea]

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

Faith is an interesting word in the Hebrew. It literally means to work with God to accomplish His goals in our lives. I often ask myself where in their doctrines do I find any kind of work or function possible.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

So can I ask you a question back

In YOUR asking these two questions about each doctrine, what doctrines have you so far found to stand up to that test?

 

[Yahoshea]

So can I ask you a question back

In YOUR asking these two questions about each doctrine, what doctrines have you so far found to stand up to that test?

Consider the argument about the divinity of Christ, Was Christ a normal human or was he in some way a God? This would include the God/Man theory or the 100% God and 100% man.
If Christ is in some was God then one must ask the two questions. ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Answer?
We look to Christ as our example. If Christ is God then everything he did comes into Question. Was He able to do it because He is God or can any man do what he did.
Does it take a God to yield to the power of another God to heal the sick or can a man yield to God to heal.
Was Christ raised from the dead because he was a God or can any man be raised from the dead?
Did it take a God to overcome sin or can any man learn to overcome sin?
The answers to all these questions cannot be answered clearly because of the advantage Christ might have had as a God.

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

Christ as a human gives me hope and a vision. It is a perfect example for me because He is just like me in every way.
Because I have a hope and a vision I can walk in the way Christ walked and allow that walk to develop the same character in me that was in Christ. I can be perfected by what I suffered just like Christ.

 

[mutzrein]

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

Faith is an interesting word in the Hebrew. It literally means to work with God to accomplish His goals in our lives. I often ask myself where in their doctrines do I find any kind of work or function possible.

So what is the source of faith - from a hebrew perspective?

I'm not sure what you meant by your last statement. When you speak of 'their' doctrines, who are you referring to?

Thanks

 

[Yahoshea]

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

Faith is an interesting word in the Hebrew. It literally means to work with God to accomplish His goals in our lives. I often ask myself where in their doctrines do I find any kind of work or function possible.

So what is the source of faith - from a hebrew perspective?

I'm not sure what you meant by your last statement. When you speak of 'their' doctrines, who are you referring to?

Thanks

As I said faith is defined as a joint effort between God and man to accomplish His goals in our lives. It is a decision on our part to work with God. It is not some mystical philosophical concept.
Good doctrine produces fruit. The doctrine of a Human Christ produces the fruit of hope in us because we then have a perfect example of a human just like us overcoming sin death and the grave. If Jesus is a God then there is no hope produced for me to follow. This is what I mean about fruit from doctrine.

 

[Elijah674]

The Godheads test is seen in Isa. 8:20 + 1 John 2:4
What 'i' think matters nothing much.

--Elijah

 

[Adullam]

I always ask...what does your doctrine make of you. I agree with your assessment.

 

[Yahoshea]

All through scripture God and Christ speak of judging by the fruit produced. I have spoken many times about the functionality of doctrine. A functional doctrine will produce positive fruit. Unfortunately many are not wiling to examine the fruit of their doctrines. They want to grind out supposed scriptural proofs that others can then counter with their own supposed scriptural proofs. The cycle goes on and on and nothing is accomplished. When ask for an example of the good fruit produced by various doctrines the question is widely ignored. This unfortunately is rampant among Christians. They have become doctrinal rather then functional. They spend countless hours attempting to prove that their particular doctrine is correct scripturally and never ask if their doctrine actually produces anything in their lives.
For example ---
I believe that Christ overcame temptation and that he was tempted just like other men even unto death. Because I also believe that Christ was fully human with no advantage over us stemming from a preexistence, I can look at his example and have hope. I have hope that I too can overcome temptation and resist sin as he did. This is a functional doctrine. It produces the positive fruit of hope in my heart.
If I were to believe that Christ had any advantage over us by way of a preexistence or divinity then I could not believe that he was tempted in the same manner that other men are tempted. He would be tempted as a God and I am tempted as a man. I would not be able to use his overcoming as a viable example and no hope could be produced. In fact the fruits that are produced from this doctrine are clearly bad. It produces doubt in my ability to follow his example. It shows no human as I am overcoming temptation. This is a dysfunctional doctrine. It does not work to help me become like Christ.

If a doctrine produces no fruit, or worse, produces bad fruit it needs cutting down and thrown in the fire like the bad fig tree.

 

[Free]

When someone asks me to believe a particular doctrine there is always two questions I ask first.
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?
How does their doctrine help me develop the character of God in me. (as Christ did)

The first thing I ask is: does that line up with Scripture?

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

There are a couple of major problems with this belief. Firstly, there was always a belief in a general resurrection in Judaism. So it is a failure to understand the significance of Jesus' resurrection that would give hope that we also can be raised from the dead. Of course, the failure to understand the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection is based on not understanding his true nature. Secondly, the same can be said of being given "a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man."

Actually, the same can be said for all your points.

The doctrine of a Human Christ produces the fruit of hope in us because we then have a perfect example of a human just like us overcoming sin death and the grave. If Jesus is a God then there is no hope produced for me to follow. This is what I mean about fruit from doctrine.

This is the single biggest problem with believing that Jesus was a mere creature. This is no different than the way of the Law and sacrificing perfect lambs, mere creatures, which were insufficient as evidenced by the continual need for sacrificing them. This makes Jesus' death and resurrection only efficacious only for himself. The logical conclusion is that we have to save ourselves by overcoming sin and being sacrificed.

The whole reason Jesus' death and resurrection atone for the sins of mankind and eliminate the need for continuing sacrifice is because he is God.

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

This is not what Scripture teaches. What it does teach is that you cannot separate who Jesus is from salvation. Faith in Jesus is based on understanding and acknowledging who he is and everything he has done.

 

[Yahoshea]

When someone asks me to believe a particular doctrine there is always two questions I ask first.
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?
How does their doctrine help me develop the character of God in me. (as Christ did)

The first thing I ask is: does that line up with Scripture?

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

There are a couple of major problems with this belief. Firstly, there was always a belief in a general resurrection in Judaism. So it is a failure to understand the significance of Jesus' resurrection that would give hope that we also can be raised from the dead. Of course, the failure to understand the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection is based on not understanding his true nature. Secondly, the same can be said of being given "a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man."

Actually, the same can be said for all your points.

The doctrine of a Human Christ produces the fruit of hope in us because we then have a perfect example of a human just like us overcoming sin death and the grave. If Jesus is a God then there is no hope produced for me to follow. This is what I mean about fruit from doctrine.

This is the single biggest problem with believing that Jesus was a mere creature. This is no different than the way of the Law and sacrificing perfect lambs, mere creatures, which were insufficient as evidenced by the continual need for sacrificing them. This makes Jesus' death and resurrection only efficacious only for himself. The logical conclusion is that we have to save ourselves by overcoming sin and being sacrificed.

The whole reason Jesus' death and resurrection atone for the sins of mankind and eliminate the need for continuing sacrifice is because he is God.

My test is this:

Any doctrine that requires me to believe it, in order to know God, I reject.

Why? Because I know that my relationship with God (righteousness) does not come through academic assent to ANYTHING, but through faith in Christ.

This is not what Scripture teaches. What it does teach is that you cannot separate who Jesus is from salvation. Faith in Jesus is based on understanding and acknowledging who he is and everything he has done.

As per usual you avoid the question that is most important.What does your doctrine produce. You say it is most important to line up with scripture but all of us are subject to error in interpretation. whoes interpretation is correct. That is what produces forums and not fruit.

The point of the spotless lamb was the concept of spotlessness not what kind of creature. In fact there were many types of animals sacrificed.

You cannot mentally ascend to God via knowledge. You can only succeed by working with God to produce good fruit in your life. Just as Christ did. To do that you must have teachings that actually produce fruit.

 

[Free]

As per usual you avoid the question that is most important.What does your doctrine produce.

To you that is the most important question. My point was that it is not. So, no, I avoided nothing.

The point of the spotless lamb was the concept of spotlessness not what kind of creature. In fact there were many types of animals sacrificed.

Yes, that is my point. The point is if Jesus was a mere creature, just like any other creature that was sacrificed, then it logically follows that we must continue sacrificing. And, using your arguments about being like Jesus, then we ought to be either sacrificing perfect people, if we use him as our example, or live perfectly and sacrifice ourselves for our own sins.

You cannot mentally ascend to God via knowledge.

My point is that Scripture is clear that correct belief in who Jesus is is essential for salvation.

You can only succeed by working with God to produce good fruit in your life. Just as Christ did. To do that you must have teachings that actually produce fruit.

But the Bible is clear that teachings must line up with Scripture.

 

[Yahoshea]

As per usual you avoid the question that is most important.What does your doctrine produce.

To you that is the most important question. My point was that it is not. So, no, I avoided nothing.

Are you content with having head knowledge rather then doctrines that actually produce fruit in your life? Knowledge should produce fruit. If it does not it is simple philosophy.

The point of the spotless lamb was the concept of spotlessness not what kind of creature. In fact there were many types of animals sacrificed.

Yes, that is my point. The point is if Jesus was a mere creature, just like any other creature that was sacrificed, then it logically follows that we must continue sacrificing. And, using your arguments about being like Jesus, then we ought to be either sacrificing perfect people, if we use him as our example, or live perfectly and sacrifice ourselves for our own sins. [/quote]

Yes exactly we should be sacrificing our own lusts and carnal desires daily. Picking up our crosses and following him. And we are to be perfected as a Bride without spot or wrinkle. That was the example he sat as a human being.

You cannot mentally ascend to God via knowledge.

My point is that Scripture is clear that correct belief in who Jesus is is essential for salvation.

You can only succeed by working with God to produce good fruit in your life. Just as Christ did. To do that you must have teachings that actually produce fruit.

But the Bible is clear that teachings must line up with Scripture.[/quote]

And the bible also says that good teaching/doctrines produces good fruit. since all of our interpretations are subject to error the more definitive test is the fruit that is produced. It is almost impossible to find two christians that will agree on a proper method of interpretation of scripture so it becomes my opinion versus yours. there is no opinion about fruit. Either it is there or it is not.
1 Tim
3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
(doctrine should conform us to godliness or produce fruit)
4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

1 Corinthians 14:26?What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification.

(Teaching is for the edification or building up of the saints)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
( teaching should equip us for every good work – fruit)
I ask again –
How does your doctrine equip me for every good work?
How does it edify me?
How is it profitable?
How does it help me conform to godliness?

 

[Sinthesis]

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

Christ as a human gives me hope and a vision. It is a perfect example for me because He is just like me in every way.
Because I have a hope and a vision I can walk in the way Christ walked and allow that walk to develop the same character in me that was in Christ. I can be perfected by what I suffered just like Christ.

Your doctrine is functionally hopeless because you have already failed at emulating Jesus. Jesus is sinless; you are not. You have not overcome temptation, you have not resisted sin, and therefore you can never through your own efforts become like Christ, because you will always be tainted by sin and thus unacceptable to God. Your false belief in your own ability to overcome the stains of your past sins can only result in death.

However, you can have hope through faith in Jesus Christ who is God the Son.

 

[Free]

Are you content with having head knowledge rather then doctrines that actually produce fruit in your life? Knowledge should produce fruit. If it does not it is simple philosophy.

I agree. Two points need to be made here: 1) one cannot divorce who Jesus is from salvation through Jesus, and 2) correct belief is necessary for correct practice.

Yes exactly we should be sacrificing our own lusts and carnal desires daily. Picking up our crosses and following him. And we are to be perfected as a Bride without spot or wrinkle. That was the example he sat as a human being.

While those things are true, you avoided my argument. According to your position that Jesus was a mere man, either a blood sacrifice must be continually made for our salvation or the shedding of our own blood is necessary for our salvation, provided we lived a perfect life. If Jesus was a mere creature, then his sacrifice is no greater than that of a lamb in the OT.

And the bible also says that good teaching/doctrines produces good fruit. since all of our interpretations are subject to error the more definitive test is the fruit that is produced

While correct doctrine will produce good fruit, that is not the more definitive test for determining whether or not a particular doctrine is correct. It may be useful sometimes but it certainly isn't useful all the time. While you don't like the idea that Scripture itself states what is and isn't correct doctrine, that is indeed the case.

Someone that believes that Jesus is God can produce good fruit, just as someone who believes that Jesus isn't God can produce good fruit. However, both cannot obviously be true.

 

[Yahoshea]

Are you content with having head knowledge rather then doctrines that actually produce fruit in your life? Knowledge should produce fruit. If it does not it is simple philosophy.

I agree. Two points need to be made here: 1) one cannot divorce who Jesus is from salvation through Jesus, and 2) correct belief is necessary for correct practice.

Yes exactly we should be sacrificing our own lusts and carnal desires daily. Picking up our crosses and following him. And we are to be perfected as a Bride without spot or wrinkle. That was the example he sat as a human being.

While those things are true, you avoided my argument. According to your position that Jesus was a mere man, either a blood sacrifice must be continually made for our salvation or the shedding of our own blood is necessary for our salvation, provided we lived a perfect life. If Jesus was a mere creature, then his sacrifice is no greater than that of a lamb in the OT.

It is up to God what he will accept as a sacrifice. You show no proof that A god had to die for our sins. If God chooses to accept Jesus the man as blood sacrifice for our sins who are we to say we need more. I know of no clear scripture that states that a God had to die for our sins. Yet there are many scriptures that state that a man laid his life down for his fellow man. It was a man that God appointed.

And the bible also says that good teaching/doctrines produces good fruit. since all of our interpretations are subject to error the more definitive test is the fruit that is produced

While correct doctrine will produce good fruit, that is not the more definitive test for determining whether or not a particular doctrine is correct. It may be useful sometimes but it certainly isn't useful all the time. While you don't like the idea that Scripture itself states what is and isn't correct doctrine, that is indeed the case.

Whoes interpretation of scripture determines doctrine --- I agree that scripture can determine what is proper doctrine. Are you willing to accept the interpretation I have concluded? Of course not. Therein lies the problem. This test requires no personal interpretation.
seeing Jesus overcome sin as a man always produces hope. It never fails. seeing him as a man overcome death always produces hope it never fails. It is not a sometime thing.
show me one positive fruit that comes from believing that Christ is a God. surely some can have good fruits that believe that doctrine but not FROM that doctrine. Usualy saints speak Christ as God but function like he is man because they need that example.

 

[Yahoshea]

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

Christ as a human gives me hope and a vision. It is a perfect example for me because He is just like me in every way.
Because I have a hope and a vision I can walk in the way Christ walked and allow that walk to develop the same character in me that was in Christ. I can be perfected by what I suffered just like Christ.

Your doctrine is functionally hopeless because you have already failed at emulating Jesus. Jesus is sinless; you are not. You have not overcome temptation, you have not resisted sin, and therefore you can never through your own efforts become like Christ, because you will always be tainted by sin and thus unacceptable to God. Your false belief in your own ability to overcome the stains of your past sins can only result in death.

However, you can have hope through faith in Jesus Christ who is God the Son.

Because no one has accomplished the goal yet is not proof that my stand is incorrect. The Bride will be perfected and will need the example of a perfected man to do so.
Perhaps you choose to accept permanent stain on your life but I am free of sin. I have accepted the blood of Christ over my sin. It is as far away as the East from the West. Never to be remembered by God. Of course there are those like you that would like to drag me back into believing that I am not forgiven. You make the blood of Christ void.