My test for doctrine ---

[Free]

seeing Jesus overcome sin as a man always produces hope. It never fails. seeing him as a man overcome death always produces hope it never fails. It is not a sometime thing.

But, if you have followed my argument, if Jesus is just a man, there is no hope for anyone; there is no salvation.

show me one positive fruit that comes from believing that Christ is a God.

This isn't a matter of good fruit. This is a matter of correct belief for salvation.

 

[Yahoshea]

seeing Jesus overcome sin as a man always produces hope. It never fails. seeing him as a man overcome death always produces hope it never fails. It is not a sometime thing.

But, if you have followed my argument, if Jesus is just a man, there is no hope for anyone; there is no salvation.

show me one positive fruit that comes from believing that Christ is a God.

This isn't a matter of good fruit. This is a matter of correct belief for salvation.

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25"For David says of Him,? 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;? FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. ? 26'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;? MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; ? 27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,? NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. ? 28'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;? YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30"And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32"This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,? "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, ? 35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Romans 5:19?For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[Yahoshea]

I am out of here for the night.

 

[Free]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

I have already shown the problems with this position which you have yet to address.

 

[Yahoshea]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

I have already shown the problems with this position which you have yet to address.

And I have posted dozens of scriptures (that you say are the final test) and you have not dealt with any of them.

 

[Yahoshea]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

I have already shown the problems with this position which you have yet to address.

The position problem is yours. You ignore clear scripture.

 

[Drew]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Well of course it was a "man" that was raised from the dead.

But, equally obviously, this does not mean that we cannot also ascribe divinity to Jesus. To suggest that "since Jesus was a man we cannot ascribe divinity to Him" is to beg the fundamental question at issue.

Things simply cannot be this simple. If your line of argument is correct, centuries of people who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity have all made an obvious category error and should, according to your argument, be collectively slapping their foreheads and crying out out "Well, why did I make such an obvious mistake. Yahoshea has shown me the truth - Jesus was a man. Well, if He was a man, then of course He cannot be divine. How silly of me to think otherwise".

Please. I would have thought that the Trinity position deserves more respect than this. There may be arguments against it, but the "He was a man so He cannot have been divine" line massively and obviously begs the question.

 

[Free]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

I have already shown the problems with this position which you have yet to address.

And I have posted dozens of scriptures (that you say are the final test) and you have not dealt with any of them.
....
The position problem is yours. You ignore clear scripture.

I have ignored nothing. Posting even one passage, as you have done, never mind dozens, that shows Jesus was a man does not mean that that was all he was. No trinitarian will disagree with that he was truly human. That is at least partly why your test for doctrine fails when it comes to a discussion of the Trinity.

This is the main problem with most anti-trinitarian theology: only passages which show Jesus' humanity are considered; the ones showing his divinity are either ignored or altered to say something that they do not.

Then there is still the argument of the inefficacy of Jesus' sacrifice you have to deal with if you want to believe he was a mere man.

 

[Yahoshea]

It was a man that was raised from the dead, not a God. A man that God appointed.

30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Well of course it was a "man" that was raised from the dead.

But, equally obviously, this does not mean that we cannot also ascribe divinity to Jesus. To suggest that "since Jesus was a man we cannot ascribe divinity to Him" is to beg the fundamental question at issue.

Things simply cannot be this simple. If your line of argument is correct, centuries of people who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity have all made an obvious category error and should, according to your argument, be collectively slapping their foreheads and crying out out "Well, why did I make such an obvious mistake. Yahoshea has shown me the truth - Jesus was a man. Well, if He was a man, then of course He cannot be divine. How silly of me to think otherwise".

Please. I would have thought that the Trinity position deserves more respect than this. There may be arguments against it, but the "He was a man so He cannot have been divine" line massively and obviously begs the question.

Respect????? respect for a doctrine whose primary tennant was conjured up by the sun worshipper Constantine and forced on the church under penalty of banishment or death. Respect?????? For a doctrine that flies in the face of the most powerful revelation of the Hebrew nation that God is one. This is one of the primary truths that separated them form the heathen nations. Even the international standard Bible encyclopedia which is universally excepted reference in all of Christianity states that the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be clearly proven from scripture but is a revealed dogma.

As to the dual nature of Christ I present this from my book.
STRIKE ONE

Let’s look at the dual nature aspect. In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, infallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most "dual nature believers" make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways†or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.†Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Without clear understanding of how Jesus accompolished what he did we cannot imitate it. There must be an understanding of the nature and character of Jesus for us to follow.
In one of the most definitive statements in the word God proclaims to Moses “I Amâ€. This statement makes very clear that the nature of God does not change. He cannot be immortal one moment and mortal the next. God cannot be a Spirit and be flesh and blood.
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal. Jesus cannot being temptable and non-temptable at the same time. Jesus cannot be faillable and non-failable.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

STRIKE TWO

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a different nature makes Him different. An augmented, dual natuerd Christ is not the same as the rest of humanity. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

STRIKE THREE

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you doâ€, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual nattured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

 

[Sinthesis]

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

Christ as a human gives me hope and a vision. It is a perfect example for me because He is just like me in every way.
Because I have a hope and a vision I can walk in the way Christ walked and allow that walk to develop the same character in me that was in Christ. I can be perfected by what I suffered just like Christ.

Your doctrine is functionally hopeless because you have already failed at emulating Jesus. Jesus is sinless; you are not. You have not overcome temptation, you have not resisted sin, and therefore you can never through your own efforts become like Christ, because you will always be tainted by sin and thus unacceptable to God. Your false belief in your own ability to overcome the stains of your past sins can only result in death.

However, you can have hope through faith in Jesus Christ who is God the Son.

Because no one has accomplished the goal yet is not proof that my stand is incorrect.

You don't believe Jesus accomplished that goal?

The Bride will be perfected and will need the example of a perfected man to do so.

You don't believe Jesus was the perfect man?

Perhaps you choose to accept permanent stain on your life but I am free of sin.

You are not free of sin. However Jesus will cover your sin if you believe and trust in Him as God the Son.

I have accepted the blood of Christ over my sin. It is as far away as the East from the West. Never to be remembered by God.

You believe you are covered by the blood of a mere man.

Of course there are those like you that would like to drag me back into believing that I am not forgiven. You make the blood of Christ void.

The blood of mere men is void. Your doctrine insults the work of Christ.

 

[Yahoshea]

If Christ is solely Human ---
How does their doctrine help me become like Christ?

Now I can look at everything Christ did and say “He did it and he is a human just like me.â€
A human was raised from the dead! That gives me hope that I can be raised from the dead.
He yielded to God and healed his fellow men. That gives me a vision of being used by God for the benefit of my fellow man.
Jesus was able to overcome and resist sin as a human. That means it is possible for me to do so.

Christ as a human gives me hope and a vision. It is a perfect example for me because He is just like me in every way.
Because I have a hope and a vision I can walk in the way Christ walked and allow that walk to develop the same character in me that was in Christ. I can be perfected by what I suffered just like Christ.

Your doctrine is functionally hopeless because you have already failed at emulating Jesus. Jesus is sinless; you are not. You have not overcome temptation, you have not resisted sin, and therefore you can never through your own efforts become like Christ, because you will always be tainted by sin and thus unacceptable to God. Your false belief in your own ability to overcome the stains of your past sins can only result in death.

However, you can have hope through faith in Jesus Christ who is God the Son.

Because no one has accomplished the goal yet is not proof that my stand is incorrect.

You don't believe Jesus accomplished that goal?

The Bride will be perfected and will need the example of a perfected man to do so.

You don't believe Jesus was the perfect man?

Perhaps you choose to accept permanent stain on your life but I am free of sin.

You are not free of sin. However Jesus will cover your sin if you believe and trust in Him as God the Son.

I have accepted the blood of Christ over my sin. It is as far away as the East from the West. Never to be remembered by God.

You believe you are covered by the blood of a mere man.

Of course there are those like you that would like to drag me back into believing that I am not forgiven. You make the blood of Christ void.

The blood of mere men is void. Your doctrine insults the work of Christ.

Yahoshea wrote:
Because no one has accomplished the goal yet is not proof that my stand is incorrect.

You don't believe Jesus accomplished that goal?

Reply –
Are you lost. Of course I believe Christ fulfilled that goal. That is why he is our example.

Yahoshea wrote:
The Bride will be perfected and will need the example of a perfected man to do so.

You don't believe Jesus was the perfect man?

Reply ---
Yes he was perfected humanity. I am not sure where you are getting these ideas.

Yahoshea wrote:
Perhaps you choose to accept permanent stain on your life but I am free of sin.

You are not free of sin. However Jesus will cover your sin if you believe and trust in Him as God the Son.

Reply ---
How about using biblical terms. There is no place in scripture that says we must trust in
God the son. In fact God the son is not a biblical term. It is another case of using non biblical terms to support a non biblical doctrine.

Yahoshea wrote:
I have accepted the blood of Christ over my sin. It is as far away as the East from the West. Never to be remembered by God.

You believe you are covered by the blood of a mere man.

Reply –
Do you believe that a spirit being YHWH has blood?
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Who died? Whose blood was shed? Who was raised? The man!

1 Cor 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

How did resurrection come? Through a man!!!

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One (context = man) the many will be made righteous.


Yahoshea wrote:
Of course there are those like you that would like to drag me back into believing that I am not forgiven. You make the blood of Christ void.

The blood of mere men is void. Your doctrine insults the work of Christ.

Reply –
It is not I that insults the blood of Christ it is you. You deny clear scripture to support your doctrine.

1 Peter 3:18?For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
It was Christ flesh (humanity) that brought us to God

you make lots of accusations without any scripture to back you up. Are we all supposed to fall on our knees to your opinions?