My Vow Concerning Doctrines

[CalledToServe]

After spending years thinking about doctrines and deciding for myself which ones to follow, the matter came to a head when I was a member of a church. They taught many things that contradicted the Bible, but that is for another time. I realized that the Holy Spirit was wrestling with me and my conscience to the point that I got up out of service and walked out in disgust over the divergent teaching.

I stood outside and prayed to the Lord asking for His wisdom. The answer I received is to use Christ's teaching on the three greatest commandments as a baseline for any and all doctrines espoused by man. This includes only the second and subsequent generations of church fathers. I have excluded the Apostles since they were taught directly by Jesus and adhered to His teachings.

I take my vow very seriously to the point that I will look at the life of the person who originated the doctrine to see if they had failed to live up to the baseline. It's surprising at how many of the church fathers violated commandments two and three with their anti-semitic writings. There goes Tertullion and the trinity. There goes Martin Luther and the Roman Catholic Church.

I figured I would just share the basis for why I look at doctrine the way that I do.

 

[Free]

That's an interesting vow. How exactly do they determine "a baseline for any and all doctrines espoused by man"?

 

[CalledToServe]

The baseline comes from Matthew 22:37-39 and John 13:34-35.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Going all the way back to 125 AD and the schism between Judaism and Christianity, both groups have violated God's commandment. Since I am a Christian, I will follow what Christ wrote. The schism occurred because Simon bar Kokhba rose up against Rome and the Jewish religious leaders sought help from Roman Christians only to be rebuffed since Simon bar Kokhba was a Jewish Messianic claimant. The early Christians could not endorse Simon since that would repudiate their faith in Jesus being the Messiah. At that point, the Jewish priests forced Jewish Christians to either be Jewish or Christian. They could not be both. Those that stayed firm in their faith in Jesus were thrown out of the Jewish community.

At the same time, in response to Simon bar Kokhba's revolt, Roman Christians made Jewish Christians to choose to be Jewish or to be Christian. Those that refused to choose were killed. It was at this time, that Gentile (Roman) Christians started their crusade to separate Christianity from its Jewish roots and wrote many a letter condemning the Jews as Christ-killers. In their view, Christ-killers needed to be exterminated and this anti-semitic thought has remained a part of the core doctrine of many Christian demoninations.

The summation is that if any writes ill of anyone else and wishes them to be dead then they have failed in adhering to the three greatest commandments that Jesus Christ handed to both Jews and Gentiles alike.

 

[Free]

The baseline comes from Matthew 22:37-39 and John 13:34-35.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.â€

Going all the way back to 125 AD and the schism between Judaism and Christianity, both groups have violated God's commandment. Since I am a Christian, I will follow what Christ wrote. The schism occurred because Simon bar Kokhba rose up against Rome and the Jewish religious leaders sought help from Roman Christians only to be rebuffed since Simon bar Kokhba was a Jewish Messianic claimant. The early Christians could not endorse Simon since that would repudiate their faith in Jesus being the Messiah. At that point, the Jewish priests forced Jewish Christians to either be Jewish or Christian. They could not be both. Those that stayed firm in their faith in Jesus were thrown out of the Jewish community.

At the same time, in response to Simon bar Kokhba's revolt, Roman Christians made Jewish Christians to choose to be Jewish or to be Christian. Those that refused to choose were killed. It was at this time, that Gentile (Roman) Christians started their crusade to separate Christianity from its Jewish roots and wrote many a letter condemning the Jews as Christ-killers. In their view, Christ-killers needed to be exterminated and this anti-semitic thought has remained a part of the core doctrine of many Christian demoninations.

The summation is that if any writes ill of anyone else and wishes them to be dead then they have failed in adhering to the three greatest commandments that Jesus Christ handed to both Jews and Gentiles alike.

Okay. So how exactly do you use that as a baseline for determining the truth of a doctrine?

 

[CalledToServe]

Okay. So how exactly do you use that as a baseline for determining the truth of a doctrine?

Tertullian and other early church fathers wrote that the Jews should be exterminated. It later progressed to encompass anyone that was different then the church. If a person cannot keep God's commandments then they are a false teacher.

2 Peter 2:1-3 says this, "1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."

Since these early church fathers taught that the Jews should be exterminated then later any group not like them then they are a false teacher according to the Apostle Peter. They have violated Jesus's teaching of the three greatest commandments.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The bottom line being, character is how you ultimately discern a true teacher from a false teacher. Doctrine alone is not what determines whether a teacher is true or false, but that is what so many people think. That's the thinking that locks people into cults. We get so easily swayed by what people teach instead of by what kind of people they are as if we have some kind of obligation to respect anyone who seems to have knowledge despite whether they live the truth of the two greatest commands or not.

 

[CalledToServe]

The bottom line being, character is how you ultimately discern a true teacher from a false teacher. Doctrine itself is not what determines whether a teacher is true or false, but that is what so many people think. That's the thinking that locks people into cults. We get so easily swayed by what people teach instead of by what kind of people they are as if we have some kind of obligation to respect anyone who seems to have knowledge despite whether they live the truth of the two greatest commands or not.

Quite nicely put. A person that espouses that x group should be put to death, their homes, businesses, and places of worship should be destroyed to remove them from the earth shows a lot about the character of the person and how close they are to being Christ-like in thoughts, deeds, and actions.

 

[Tina]

The baseline comes from Matthew 22:37-39 and John 13:34-35.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.â€

I agree with you 100.01 %.


My pastors has always emphasized that if we do not have genuine love for God and love for people, then don't bother serving in any ministry. Work on your spiritual life first !

Serving with a wrong mindset and attitude amounts to serving in vain just for show like hypocrites. Some studied Christians, church leaders and pastors stoop to condemning the very people they are supposed to protect, love, guide and care, ending up driving them away from God instead of welcoming them in God's Kingdom ..

 

[wayseer]

Tertullian and other early church fathers wrote that the Jews should be exterminated.

If Tertullian wrote that the Jews should be exterminated then it should not be too hard to produce your reference.

I am unaware of any reference to where any of the recognized patristic Fathers called for the extermination of the Jews.

 

[CalledToServe]

If Tertullian wrote that the Jews should be exterminated then it should not be too hard to produce your reference.

I am unaware of any reference to where any of the recognized patristic Fathers called for the extermination of the Jews.

From Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place libations and sacrifices, which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for the unction, too, was exterminated in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, They exterminated my hands and feet. And the suffering of this extermination was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Cæsar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April, on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses. Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, His blood be upon us, and upon our children; and, If you dismiss him, you are not a friend of Cæsar; John 19:12 in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.

Here's more from the early church fathers.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.



Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.



John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay



St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

 

[dadof10]

From Tertullian's Answer to the Jews



Here's more from the early church fathers.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.



Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.



John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay



St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

Where are the anti-Semitic quotes from Calvin and Luther? Hummm....They are pretty easy to find, just wondering why you quit cutting and pasting at Luther's quotes?

If you reject Catholicism because of the "anti-Semitism" of the Early Church Fathers, you must also reject Protestantism for the "anti-Semitism" of the Reformers. So, do you reject all of Christianity, including Scripture, which was put together by the Church Fathers and accepted and verified by the Reformers?

 

[Free]

Quite nicely put. A person that espouses that x group should be put to death, their homes, businesses, and places of worship should be destroyed to remove them from the earth shows a lot about the character of the person and how close they are to being Christ-like in thoughts, deeds, and actions.

But it says nothing of the truth of a doctrine.

 

[CalledToServe]

Where are the anti-Semitic quotes from Calvin and Luther? Hummm....They are pretty easy to find, just wondering why you quit cutting and pasting at Luther's quotes?

If you reject Catholicism because of the "anti-Semitism" of the Early Church Fathers, you must also reject Protestantism for the "anti-Semitism" of the Reformers. So, do you reject all of Christianity, including Scripture, which was put together by the Church Fathers and accepted and verified by the Reformers?

I also reject Luther and anyone else that broke the three greatest commandments. I stopped since I was asked about Tertullian and added in the others up till the 5 century AD.

But it says nothing of the truth of a doctrine.

And what truth is that? Tertullian introduced Greek philosophy specifically Plato's Theory of Forms to explain God. Mind you that this is in complete contradiction of what the Old Testament specifically said. He also ignored the Old Testament manifestations of God. Which do we follow; Christ and His teachings or do we follow fallible and flawed man? I'll pick the former.

 

[dadof10]

I also reject Luther and anyone else that broke the three greatest commandments. I stopped since I was asked about Tertullian and added in the others up till the 5 century AD.



And what truth is that? Tertullian introduced Greek philosophy specifically Plato's Theory of Forms to explain God. Mind you that this is in complete contradiction of what the Old Testament specifically said. He also ignored the Old Testament manifestations of God. Which do we follow; Christ and His teachings or do we follow fallible and flawed man? I'll pick the former.

How can you trust Scripture, since these fallible men, and others, were involved in its recognition? Could they have been mistaken including in the Canon...say...Revelation as opposed to the Gospel of Thomas?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But it says nothing of the truth of a doctrine.

But it does.

When transforming the people of God into the image of Christ's character is the very foundation of a person's ministry doctrines follow accordingly. It's amazing what some people think Christianity is all about when they don't have the goal of Christ's character as the foundation of all that they are trying to accomplish. This leads to over-thought, misguided, Spirit-less theories and interpretations of scripture that lead people away from what's really important and into meaningless talk. Chatter that deceives people into thinking they somehow have God's favor as measured by the (so called) knowledge they have.

You may not be able to appreciate what I'm saying, and that's okay. I understand perfectly. It took a crisis of faith for God to show me the truth of this, similar to how CalledToServe learned this in the moment of crisis.

Now I don't know all about Called's beliefs, but I definitely can relate to the fundamental truth of the revelation he received in his moment of crisis.

 

[reba]

After spending years thinking about doctrines and deciding for myself which ones to follow, the matter came to a head when I was a member of a church. They taught many things that contradicted the Bible, but that is for another time. I realized that the Holy Spirit was wrestling with me and my conscience to the point that I got up out of service and walked out in disgust over the divergent teaching.

I stood outside and prayed to the Lord asking for His wisdom. The answer I received is to use Christ's teaching on the three greatest commandments as a baseline for any and all doctrines espoused by man. This includes only the second and subsequent generations of church fathers. I have excluded the Apostles since they were taught directly by Jesus and adhered to His teachings.

I take my vow very seriously to the point that I will look at the life of the person who originated the doctrine to see if they had failed to live up to the baseline. It's surprising at how many of the church fathers violated commandments two and three with their anti-semitic writings. There goes Tertullion and the trinity. There goes Martin Luther and the Roman Catholic Church.

I figured I would just share the basis for why I look at doctrine the way that I do.

Some time before paragraph 2 you followed wrong doctrine. Buy your standards/doctrine you are the only one allowed to see your mistake and make a change.

 

[Free]

And what truth is that? Tertullian introduced Greek philosophy specifically Plato's Theory of Forms to explain God. Mind you that this is in complete contradiction of what the Old Testament specifically said. He also ignored the Old Testament manifestations of God. Which do we follow; Christ and His teachings or do we follow fallible and flawed man? I'll pick the former.

You are presuming that these "teachings of men" are contrary to what Christ taught.

But it does.

When transforming the people of God into the image of Christ's character is the very foundation of a person's ministry doctrines follow accordingly. It's amazing what some people think Christianity is all about when they don't have the goal of Christ's character as the foundation of all that they are trying to accomplish. This leads to over-thought, misguided, Spirit-less theories and interpretations of scripture that lead people away from what's really important and into meaningless talk. Chatter that deceives people into thinking they somehow have God's favor as measured by the (so called) knowledge they have.

You may not be able to appreciate what I'm saying, and that's okay. I understand perfectly. It took a crisis of faith for God to show me the truth of this, similar to how CalledToServe learned this in the moment of crisis.

Now I don't know all about Called's beliefs, but I definitely can relate to the fundamental truth of the revelation he received in his moment of crisis.

I fully understand what both of you are saying but it is significantly flawed, at least in part for the reason dadof10 just gave. The very Scriptures which you are both arguing to were preserved, copied, translated and compiled into canon by the very men whom you are saying were so corrupt that we shouldn't trust their teachings. That is a significant contradiction.

Not to mention the many Bible teachers, scholars and pastors who are human and struggle with sin. Are their words not to be trusted?

 

[wayseer]

From Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

That reference has nothing to do with Tertullian advocating that the Jews should be exterminated as you stated.

The use of this reference indicates that you cannot read text or you are misusing text to achieve you own ideological ends. Text torn out of if context is pretext.

Furthermore - what you are talking about has nothing to do with doctrine. Where does church doctrine advocate for the extermination of the Jews?

I'll tell you - nowhere - apart from the fantasy existing in your own mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The very Scriptures which you are both arguing to were preserved, copied, translated and compiled into canon by the very men whom you are saying were so corrupt that we shouldn't trust their teachings. That is a significant contradiction.

Not to mention the many Bible teachers, scholars and pastors who are human and struggle with sin. Are their words not to be trusted?

And that's what I would want to make myself perfectly clear on. I don't categorically dismiss everything someone says when they demonstrate a lack of knowledge about the character of Christ and it's importance in the Christian faith. What I do is recognize that the basic element to discern what they say and their calling being from God is missing. Until they have a pattern of fruit bearing (not just an occasional failure) I have no basis upon which to know if they are speaking on behalf of God in an anointed ministry or not.

I personally don't reject Luther outright. But it does bother me how many of the church fathers had off the wall doctrines that make me scratch my head. And in all fairness, barring some remarkable act of wickedness, I think it's probably pretty hard to try to discern the personal character of someone long dead and who we did not know for ourselves in a day to day kind of way. But don't get me wrong...I'm very bothered by some of the doctrines that sprang up from the early church. Very bothered.

 

[wayseer]

That there is anti-Semetic sentiment within Christianity cannot be denied - but such is a far call from what the OP is advocating here.

If you want anti-Semeatic evidence then Matthew is good place to start.

Matthew was written at the time when the split with Judaism was taking place. In fact, it is argued, that Matthew wrote with the specific purpose of providing the nascent Church with a document that created separation with Judaism. While Matt 28: 11-15 may have been a later reaction, the pericope does indicate the degree of anti-Semetic feelings at that time.

Not that the 'split' can be historically pinpointed to some specific time and place. Rather, it happened over a period of time. Of significance is the face that the early church did not support the Jews when they fought the Romans in the two wars which led total destruction of the Temple.

Embarrassingly, we are reminded of some of the more belligerent aspects of Christianity but to suggest that these aspect form part of Christian 'doctrine' demonstrates a severe lack of knowledge of what it means to be a Christian.