Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mt 23;35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

Note that revelation says all that were slain upon the earth and Mat says all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.These two verses alone is proofthat Jerusalem is Babylon the great.If it wasnt then one of these verses would have to be wrong and we all know they are both correct.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

There are alot of prophecies concerning Jerusalem and its occupants in the bible that has been coming to pass .



Daniel 7;20
And of the ten horns that were in his head,and of the other which came up,and before whom three fell;even of that horn that had eyes,and a mouth that spake very great things,whose look was more stout than his fellows.


The three that were removed from the seven hills were Jordan,Egypt and Syria.


1967 Arab-Israeli War, the Third Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, an-Naksah (The Setback), or the June War, was fought between Israel </wiki/Israel> and the neighboring states of Egypt </wiki/Egypt>, Jordan </wiki/Jordan>, and Syria </wiki/Syria>.


You could say that all ten horns had rederd thier dominion unto the little horn though.Ah how they would love to have those seven hills back.

 

[Strangelove]

Smaller....

Your not really helping your case with your sarcastic tone. It just makes people not want to listen to you.

You dont think we need to keep a watch out for evil people. Ok. Fine. Your entitled to your opinion. I'm carrying out a study here on the external man filled systems that might be a match for the Mother of Harlots. You say the Mother is inside each of us? Is that right? Ok. So we disagree. We have no need to converse further if we dont agree on the fundamentals.

Good day.

 

[Strangelove]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mt 23;35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

Note that revelation says all that were slain upon the earth and Mat says all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.These two verses alone is proofthat Jerusalem is Babylon the great.If it wasnt then one of these verses would have to be wrong and we all know they are both correct.

Excellent Shilohsfoal! This was my next piece of evidence to bring forward>>

If it pleases yer honor I present Exhibit #2::

Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints.

The Pharisees of Jerusalem killed Stephen who was the first of "the martyrs of Jesus". Any other interpretation of who the woman is, if it does not include the Jewish religious leaders in the time of Jesus, including the Jewish religious leaders who killed the Old Testament prophets (Rev 18:24), is therefore incorrect.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
​

Stephen, the first Christian martyr, fingers the council at Jerusalem as the murderers of the prophets, and they were so angry they killed Stephen, too:

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:​

Jesus speaks harsh words to the leaders of Jerusalem, saying they are worse than harlots, and also says that "Jeursalem kills the prophets":

Mat 21:31 "...Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.​

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
​

 

[Thranduil]

[/SIZE]

Question? Oh, you mean Jesus DIDN'T speak to children of the DEVIL in those men? Maybe you missed it and the point altogether?

[/SIZE]

Yeah, we certainly don't want to get any of those facts too close to home now do we? That would never do would it?


Yeah, it's always pretty easy to paint 'the other people' as the bad guys ain't it?

It does get substantially more difficult when we have to cough up the facts that we have and do sin and that sin is connected to THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

But hey, let's just blatantly IGNORE those parts for 'us' and BLAME some other group or sect and DEMONIZE them instead. Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable plan....yeah, we should be able to villianize just about anyone who 'doesn't think like ME.'

zzzzzz

In case anybody missed it the WHORE of BABYLON sits on PEOPLE.

Rev. 17:
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

yeah, let's make real sure it's THE OTHER GUY but NOT ME. No. Never ME.

s

Well Doc, like I said in my first post in this thread, broken records.

zone said "i think you are right about Commerce, but also think Strandgelove is closer to the truth."

Yes zone, you are right, the Doc is far more DETAILED. I did say, "My understanding of Babylon is a bit more broad..."

 

[Strangelove]

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S SURRENDER. "The confession of General Cornwallis to General Washington at Yorktown has been well hidden by historians.

"Jonathan Williams recorded in his LEGIONS OF SATAN, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington that "a holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown."

Cornwallis went on to explain what would seem to be a self contradiction: "Your churches will be used to teach the Jew's religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire.

All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry." And indeed George Washington himself was a Mason, and he gave back through a false religion what he had won with his army."

"Cornwallis well knew that his military defeat was only the beginning of world catastrophe that would be universal and that unrest would continue until mind control could be accomplished through a false religion. What he predicted has come to pass. A brief sketch of American religious history and we have seen Masonry infused into every church in America With their veiled Phallic religion.

Darby and the Plymouth Brethren brought a Jewish Christianity to America. Masons Rutherford and Russell started Jehovah Witnesses' Judaism which is now worldwide with their message of the divine kingdom. Mason Joseph Smith started Mormon Judaism with its Jewish teaching of millennialism. At the turn of the twentieth century there appeared the Scofield Bible with a Jewish interpretation of the prophecies.

With wide use of this "helpful" aid all the American churches have silently become synagogues. We now have Baptist Jews, Methodist Jews, Church of God Jews, apostate Catholic Jews, and many Protestant Jews throughout America. We are aliens in our own country because of false religion. All are praying for divine deliverance into that "Divine Government" which Cornwallis knew to be the British Empire.

A false religion has been used to deceive us into allegiance to our enemies of Yorktown and Bunker Hill. No! Not a gun has been fired but the invisible and malignant process of conquering America with the Jew's religion has gone on unabated. The Union Jack has been planted in our hearts with religious deception.

All has happened "legally," "constitutionally," "freely" and completely within our most sacred trust -- our churches. Religious deception is painless innoculation against truth. It cannot be removed from the conscience with surgery, yet it is the motivator of our actions and directly controls our lives. Once man gives over to false religion, he is no longer rational because he originates no thought. His life is controlled by whomever controls his religion."

"The veil of false religion is the sword of Damocles and its power to control humanity defies even the imagination of tyrants who use it."

"This is not to say that George Washington was a traitor willingly, or knowingly. He was beguiled into a Satanic religious order that insidiously controls men's minds. So have American statesmen and military leaders down through the years given aid and allegiance to the enemies of the United States because they did not have knowledge of the invisible subterfuge that stalks this land.

My eyes were opened the day my colleague from Ohio handed me Wagner's FREEMASONRY AN INTERPRETATION. If every American would read it, they would no longer ask why and how it has happened."

Given by Senator Joseph McCarthy, six months before his mouth was closed forever. End of quote from GEORGE WASHINGTON'S SURRENDER.

NOTE FROM DOC::::: I am a Jew, I am not being anti-semitic, I am being truthful.​

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 17;15
And he saith unto me,The waters which thou sawest,where the whore sitteth,are peoples and mulititudes,and nations,and tongues.

The above verse seems to be a strange discription for a people of a city buts the shoe fits well for Jerusalem.Below is the demographics of Israel as copied from wikipedia.


After reaching 7,406,900 inhabitants[3] according to the first data released from its 2008 census, in 2010 Israel's population stands at about 7.5 million.[297] Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[1] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and is spoken by the majority of the population, and Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority. As of 2008, Arab citizens of Israel comprise just under 20% of the country's total population.[298]

Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in this language and English is taught from the early grades in elementary school. As a country of immigrants, many languages can be heard on the streets. Due to mass immigration from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia (some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel),[299] Russian and Amharic are widely spoken.[300] Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[301] Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel,[302] about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate, because, under the Orthodox interpretation, only children to Jewish mothers are considered Jews.[303][304]

Over the last decade, large numbers of migrant workers from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa and South America have settled in Israel. Exact figures are unknown as many of them are living in the country illegally,[305] but estimates run in the region of 200,000.[306] Over 16,000 African asylum seekers have entered Israel in recent years.[307] The main language amongst deaf Israelis is Israeli Sign Language (ISL).[308]

Retention of Israel's population since 1948 is about even or greater, when compared to other countries with mass immigration.[309] Emigration from Israel (yerida) to other countries, primarily the United States and Canada, is described by demographers as modest,[310] but is often cited by Israeli government ministries as a major threat to Israel's future.[311][3

 

[smaller]

Smaller....

Your not really helping your case with your sarcastic tone. It just makes people not want to listen to you.

If you sense a little repugnance when seeing the myriad of (patent baloney) judgments directed at sects (Jewish radicals-the RCC-the Bilderbergers or insert your favorite conspiracy guesswork) in matters of eschatology, yeah.

Pretty pathetic theories they are. But hey, I'm sure your version entertains you as well.

You dont think we need to keep a watch out for evil people. Ok. Fine.

Strawman replacement doesn't interest me much either.

Your entitled to your opinion. I'm carrying out a study here on the external man filled systems that might be a match for the Mother of Harlots. You say the Mother is inside each of us? Is that right? Ok. So we disagree. We have no need to converse further if we dont agree on the fundamentals.

Good day.

Yeah, my view is that the real evil is much closer to home and vastly more difficult to fess up to because of same reality. Glad you managed to pick that out finally.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[zone]

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S SURRENDER. "The confession of General Cornwallis to General Washington at Yorktown has been well hidden by historians. ​

​

wow.
just wow.​

 

[zone]

Rev 17;15
And he saith unto me,The waters which thou sawest,where the whore sitteth,are peoples and mulititudes,and nations,and tongues.

The above verse seems to be a strange discription for a people of a city buts the shoe fits well for Jerusalem.Below is the demographics of Israel as copied from wikipedia.


After reaching 7,406,900 inhabitants[3] according to the first data released from its 2008 census, in 2010 Israel's population stands at about 7.5 million.[297] Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[1] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and is spoken by the majority of the population, and Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority. As of 2008, Arab citizens of Israel comprise just under 20% of the country's total population.[298]

Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in this language and English is taught from the early grades in elementary school. As a country of immigrants, many languages can be heard on the streets. Due to mass immigration from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia (some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel),[299] Russian and Amharic are widely spoken.[300] Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[301] Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel,[302] about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate, because, under the Orthodox interpretation, only children to Jewish mothers are considered Jews.[303][304]

Over the last decade, large numbers of migrant workers from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa and South America have settled in Israel. Exact figures are unknown as many of them are living in the country illegally,[305] but estimates run in the region of 200,000.[306] Over 16,000 African asylum seekers have entered Israel in recent years.[307] The main language amongst deaf Israelis is Israeli Sign Language (ISL).[308]

Retention of Israel's population since 1948 is about even or greater, when compared to other countries with mass immigration.[309] Emigration from Israel (yerida) to other countries, primarily the United States and Canada, is described by demographers as modest,[310] but is often cited by Israeli government ministries as a major threat to Israel's future.[311][3

the reference is to POWER over the world.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

zone
It doesnt say anything about the world in that verse.Just mutitudes,nations and tongues.Thats all.
It just so happens that is what you will find in such a country of immigrants.
Take the Babylon of 2500 years ago.The jews went into Babylon and would serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
Who would ever believe the jews would go into Babylon the great and serve its king for 70 years?Not many people on this board could possibly believe such a thing could happen and in fact dont believe it but that is what is happening.

 

[zone]

Rev 17;15
And he saith unto me,The waters which thou sawest,where the whore sitteth,are peoples and mulititudes,and nations,and tongues.

The above verse seems to be a strange discription for a people of a city buts the shoe fits well for Jerusalem.Below is the demographics of Israel as copied from wikipedia.


After reaching 7,406,900 inhabitants[3] according to the first data released from its 2008 census, in 2010 Israel's population stands at about 7.5 million.[297] Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[1] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and is spoken by the majority of the population, and Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority. As of 2008, Arab citizens of Israel comprise just under 20% of the country's total population.[298]

Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in this language and English is taught from the early grades in elementary school. As a country of immigrants, many languages can be heard on the streets. Due to mass immigration from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia (some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel),[299] Russian and Amharic are widely spoken.[300] Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[301] Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel,[302] about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate, because, under the Orthodox interpretation, only children to Jewish mothers are considered Jews.[303][304]

Over the last decade, large numbers of migrant workers from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa and South America have settled in Israel. Exact figures are unknown as many of them are living in the country illegally,[305] but estimates run in the region of 200,000.[306] Over 16,000 African asylum seekers have entered Israel in recent years.[307] The main language amongst deaf Israelis is Israeli Sign Language (ISL).[308]

Retention of Israel's population since 1948 is about even or greater, when compared to other countries with mass immigration.[309] Emigration from Israel (yerida) to other countries, primarily the United States and Canada, is described by demographers as modest,[310] but is often cited by Israeli government ministries as a major threat to Israel's future.[311][3

zone
It doesnt say anything about the world in that verse.Just mutitudes,nations and tongues.Thats all.
It just so happens that is what you will find in such a country of immigrants.
Take the Babylon of 2500 years ago.The jews went into Babylon and would serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
Who would ever believe the jews would go into Babylon the great and serve its king for 70 years?Not many people on this board could possibly believe such a thing could happen and in fact dont believe it but that is what is happening.

well,
i guess the jews should have known they would go into captivity; they had plenty of warning. but they didn't like that message either: that's why they kept killing the prophets.

"mulititudes,and nations,and tongues"

means just that: the whole world. all nations drink of her fornications.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The waters where the whore sittith are multitudes,nations and tongues.
The whore is a city.

Zone,Are you attempting to say the city sits on the entire world?
What city are you saying covers the entire world?

 

[chakham]

Look at Ezekiel 23 you will see described two daughters. One is named Aholah the eldest (Samaria) the other known as Aholiba (Jerusalem) they are the daughters of one mother. Who might their mother be?

Even in Revelation Babylon the Mother of all Harlots is referred to as a great city. Think about that Babylon is a great city. Give it time me thinks she will be back to her former glory soon.

 

[zone]

The waters where the whore sittith are multitudes,nations and tongues.
The whore is a city.

Zone,Are you attempting to say the city sits on the entire world?
What city are you saying covers the entire world?

earthly JERUSALEM...watch and see.

 

[smaller]

well,
i guess the jews should have known they would go into captivity; they had plenty of warning. but they didn't like that message either: that's why they kept killing the prophets.

"mulititudes,and nations,and tongues"

means just that: the whole world. all nations drink of her fornications.

Indeed. Even the voice of the bridegroom and the bride were/are 'in her.'


Rev. 17
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

(WOE to that one by whom offences come-Luke 17)

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Anyone who reads about the whore, her works and whereabouts from Rev. 17 on, and comes to conclusions about physical cities and or religious sects, physical nations of people (like the infamous 200 million man chinese army) or even people or a particular individual person as the 'anti-Christ' would do themselves well to study a bit more before jumping headlong into ridiculous speculations.

The entirety of the book of Rev. can only be understood allegorically, and there are FEW good allegorical students.

The MAIN CHARACTERS of the topics addressed therein are THREE FOLD as to POSITIONS or ENTITY CLASSES. These are:

GOD and His Heavenly Messengers
MANKIND
DEVILS

It should hit a few minds that since the above 3 categories of players is relatively obvious it should also be relatively obvious that TWO out of the THREE are INVISIBLE. IF you come out of this post remembering this ONE FACT you will stay out of a LOT of time wasting performing phony witch hunts for a physical whore, a physical anti-Christ, a physical CITY, a physical person, etc etc etc.

THE MAJORITY OF THE ACTION is behind the scenes and will NEVER be seen on the outside.

Revelation is about the forthcoming RULE IN TOTALITY of JESUS CHRIST over ALL HIS ENEMIES. That GREAT MOUNTAIN not made by HANDS who DESTROYS the IMAGE OF Nebuchadnezzer, the king of BABYLON who are depicted in the APOCALYPSE of JOHN.

So here is CLUE # 2 about physical understandings. Since Rev is about HIS FORTHCOMING VICTORY...this is HOW we are to WATCH or OBSERVE:

Luke 17:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

So LO HERE, Jerusalem? Uh, no. Or LO THERE, the JEWS? Sorry. No horseshoe.

The action is going to transpire in that BATTLE 'within.' THAT happens also to be WHERE THE EMEMIES are....Just as JESUS lives the the HEARTs of HIS...so do the other players in the drama abide WITHIN man, but are NOT the same as MANKIND.

I've spent decades in Revelation and I don't have many 'fixed' positions on these matters yet. But there really are a few simple rules to keep one on track. Allegory is a tough gig filled with plenty of landmines to blow any theories apart, and more importantly to KEEP PEOPLE DIVIDED and BICKERING, which of course DEVILS really get a HOOT from. That is why there is little agreement about Revelation in the entire spectrums of the churches, because it IS that difficult. Tim LaHaye? Hal Lindsey? Dave Hunt?

Let me just insert A BIG FAT YAWN.

And the JEW BLAMERS? Seriously. Take a number. Anti-Semitism ain't a new demonic hatred on the block. My first post in this thread I pointed out to the thread starter that ALL OF ISRAEL were taught in the O.T. scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN so any theory making THEM the bad guys can't even get out of the starting gate. One does not UN MAKE themselve a CHILD OF GOD. They were AND REMAIN as Gods Chosen People and there are some FANTASTICALLY WONDERFUL scriptures in BEHALF of them ALL throughout the text regardless of their present state of BLINDNESS. See Romans 11:25-32 and you should be able to see that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be SAVED, YES, EVEN THE JEWISH ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL. So them, the JEWS or THEIR CITY being the whore or the anti-christ or the whateverrrr is soooo much baloney.

To try to take people down blind rat hole theories may tantalize people with the tastes of various FEARS like a good vampire movie, but do they make for sound theological/eschtology understandings? Prolly not. Oh well.

Any 'end times' theory that MISSES ONE THIRD of the PARTIES INVOLVED, the invisible world of DEVILS isn't even worth looking upon. That entity class, their AROUSAL and their forthcoming DESTRUCTION comprises THE BULK of the document. And if one hasn't studied out that end of the spectrum from the other parts of the texts, they won't last a credible minute in Rev. Their understandings will be FAIRY TALES from the MIND CRYPT to scare little children in the dark of night with pictures of the MAN ANTI-CHRIST chopping off their heads for praying 'now I lay me down to sleep.'

John starts out Revelation addressing by the directions of JESUS speaking about and to SATAN in the 7 CHURCHES....and every last congregant will say in their heart...NOT ME...and they do so by the very POWER that SITS UPON THEIR MOUNTAIN TOP...yeah, MOUNTAIN TOPS are allegorical many ways in the text to YOUR MIND. Yeah, that is where THE BATTLE ground is with GOG and MAGOG...in YER HEAD...and at the END there will be SO MUCH LIGHT shining therein ALL DARKNESS SHALL DISPEL. So if you don't get it now, YOU WILL then.

The REVELATION account is NOT about Jerusalem, Jews, Thee Anti-Christ as a physical king-ruler of this planet....NONE of that...

It's about GOD, THE DEVIL AND YOU. Every ONE of you reading this IS presently engaged in REVELATION matters and you may not even know it. It ain't something yer gonna read about in the newspapers when Israel gits around to nuking Iran. That will be just another SIDESHOW put on by DEVILS in MEN.

It all happens RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE STANDING....in the TWINKLING of AN EYE, and you STILL can't see it 'cause it happens INSIDE when SIN, EVIL and DEATH are DESTROYED at the END...forever and ever. So yeah, that's cool.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

So here is CLUE # 2 about physical understandings. Since Rev is about HIS FORTHCOMING VICTORY...this is HOW we are to WATCH or OBSERVE:

Luke 17:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

So LO HERE, Jerusalem? Uh, no. Or LO THERE, the JEWS? Sorry. No horseshoe.

Um...smaller....your quote might have some validity if this thread were talking about us keeping a Watch out for the Kingdom of God. But it's not. It's about keeping a watch out for BABYLON THE GREAT! Watching for the rise of Babylon the Great will tell us WHEN the Kingdom of God is at hand:::

24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
​

The action is going to transpire in that BATTLE 'within.' THAT happens also to be WHERE THE EMEMIES are....Just as JESUS lives the the HEARTs of HIS...so do the other players in the drama abide WITHIN man, but are NOT the same as MANKIND.

This is pure pyscho-babble. Are you a pyschotherepist? Maybe a self-help guru? Tony Robbins fan? Enemy within>>? I have no enemy within Brother. The Holy Spirit abides in me.

I've spent decades in Revelation and I don't have many 'fixed' positions on these matters yet. But there really are a few simple rules to keep one on track. Allegory is a tough gig filled with plenty of landmines to blow any theories apart, and more importantly to KEEP PEOPLE DIVIDED and BICKERING, which of course DEVILS really get a HOOT from. That is why there is little agreement about Revelation in the entire spectrums of the churches, because it IS that difficult. Tim LaHaye? Hal Lindsey? Dave Hunt?

So your solution is to just tell us to shut up and not talk about it? Oh plz....I give you a big fat yawn cos you are getting REALLY boring now. If you dont want to join with us in analyzing revelation then be off with you!

And the JEW BLAMERS? Seriously. Take a number. Anti-Semitism ain't a new demonic hatred on the block. My first post in this thread I pointed out to the thread starter that ALL OF ISRAEL were taught in the O.T. scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN so any theory making THEM the bad guys can't even get out of the starting gate. One does not UN MAKE themselve a CHILD OF GOD. They were AND REMAIN as Gods Chosen People and there are some FANTASTICALLY WONDERFUL scriptures in BEHALF of them ALL throughout the text regardless of their present state of BLINDNESS. See Romans 11:25-32 and you should be able to see that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be SAVED, YES, EVEN THE JEWISH ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL. So them, the JEWS or THEIR CITY being the whore or the anti-christ or the whateverrrr is soooo much baloney.

Ok I get it. Your one of these guys who thinks Isreal in the NT refers only to the political state of Isreal (the little horn). So we cant possibly blame the Pharisees like Jesus did. Do you work for the ADL Smaller? You certainly put much vigour into defending the Synagogue of Satan. Hey! Who do you think the Synagogue of Satan is?? Thoughts? Of course you'll say they are the devils within us>>>Lolz. JEW BLAMERS?? Ouch!! I AM A JEW (who believes in christ). So am I blaming myself and other normal Jews??

To try to take people down blind rat hole theories may tantalize people with the tastes of various FEARS like a good vampire movie, but do they make for sound theological/eschtology understandings? Prolly not. Oh well.

I think your pyschonautic exploration of the spooky enemy within sounds more like the horror movie>>> Demons inside....yeahhhhhhh riiiiiiiiggghhtt! Trying to scare everyone into thinking Satan is living inside them instead of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Any 'end times' theory that MISSES ONE THIRD of the PARTIES INVOLVED, the invisible world of DEVILS isn't even worth looking upon. That entity class, their AROUSAL and their forthcoming DESTRUCTION comprises THE BULK of the document.

Yes it's all just scary invisible devils isn't it. Couldn't possibly be the Synagogue of Satan comprising of men trying to hoodwink Christians into accepting the NOAHIDE LAWS!!

Are you keeping a watch out for invisible devils Smaller? Good luck with that!

 

[Strangelove]

If it pleases the court>>>>Exhibit #3

"The Great City"

One of the simplest, yet strongest clues that Jerusalem is to be understood as the harlot of Babylon is that John seems to give the answer away directly to the observant reader in a couple of key places in Revelation.

At the end of chapter 17, the interpreting angel tells John the identity of the adulterous woman explicitly: “The woman whom you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earthâ€. This phrase “the great city†seems to be set forth with the assumption that the reader knows what city that would be, and the phrase is tossed around several more times in this passage. Moreover, the phrase appears to be used quite exclusively in the book of Revelation.

Outside of this passage, in which it occurs many times, all of which clearly refer to Babylon, the phrase only appears twice in the rest of this twenty-two-chapter book. The first, and most important occurrence of the designation “the great city†is in 11:8, which reads, “And [the two witnesses’] bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified†. This verse is extremely significant. In it, we have two major pieces of information relevant to our study.

First, it is all but indisputable that “the great city†as identified here is Jerusalem, “where also their Lord was crucified.†This alone sets a powerful precedent for the term before we come to chapters 17 and 18. This term is not used carelessly for many cities in the book, but rather only twice without explicit reference to Babylon. It is hard to imagine this reference not ringing in the ears of the original audience when they would arrive at 17:18. It would easily be the most natural step, if a somewhat shocking one.

Secondly, the writer also sets a precedent for using metaphorical names for Jerusalem, specifically names of Israel’s ancient enemies. This tells us two things: we should not be surprised if he does it again, and Jerusalem is being painted in a very negative light in Revelation.

A similar occurrence of the phrase “the great city†is found in 16:19, where again we have a vital clue to the identity of the harlot who appears later. The verse reads, “And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell†. The key point to be made here is that “the great city†is apparently contrasted with “the cities of the nations.†It could be that the great city is merely one of the cities of the nations, but it seems more likely that the two are to be distinguished; we are not told that the other cities of the nations fell, just that the cities of the nations fell, as distinct from the great city.

As Ford comments, “The juxtaposition of this phrase with the ‘cities of the nations’ suggests that it is not a Gentile location, such as Rome.†This also becomes more probable in light of the lexical ambiguity of the Greek. For neutrality’s sake, the translation given above has simply rendered tw'n ejqnw'n “of the nations.†In Greek, of course, the term may be translated either in this manner or more specifically as “of the Gentiles.†The NET Bible notes this as an alternative translation, and if we take this option, the text is even more telling.

In this case “the great city†would be juxtaposed against “the cities of the Gentiles.†In light of the last use of “the great city,†in which it was identified as the place “where also their Lord was crucified,†this does not seem unlikely. What makes this especially significant for our present study is that this verse may bridge the gap between 11:8 and 17:18 in that the remaining portion of 16:19 fills out the image of this “great city†by identifying it explicitly as Babylon.

In addition, this interpretation can be further validated by the Old Testament background of the city’s fate in this passage. As several commentators have recognized, the splitting of the city into three parts seems to echo Ezek 5:1–5 in which God has the prophet divide his hair into three parts as a depiction of coming judgment upon a city, specifically, the desolation of Jerusalem, which will occur in thirds.51 Taking together the precedent of Rev 11:8, the contrast with the cities of the nations/Gentiles, and the background of Ezek 5, we have very compelling reasons to think 16:9, like 11:8, may be referring to Jerusalem as “the great city.†Not only that, “the great city†is here also clearly connected to the name “Babylon.â€

Again, these are the only two references to “the great city†in the book before we get to chapter 17. There is no other “great city†to be found in the Apocalypse, no other precedent to follow. If Jerusalem is not the harlot, it is worth asking at this point why John, who uses the phrase “the great city†so colorfully in chapters 17 and 18 has been so uncareful as to let it slip at two other places in the book, both of which would likely lead one to see Jerusalem as God’s enemy, if not Babylon itself.

One other similar phenomenon occurs in chapter 14, in which “the winepress was trodden outside the city†. Almost all interpreters identify this city as Jerusalem (due to the grapes/vine imagery that is so commonly associated with Israel in the Old Testament), yet the only “city†mentioned thus far in the chapter is “Babylon the great†in verse 8.

The identification seems to be taken for granted. If this is the case, then all three passages in the book that anticipate the revealing of “the great city†in chapters 17 and 18 can be said to be evocative of, if not indicative of Jerusalem, and this necessarily sets a powerfully consistent motif in the mind of the reader by the time these later chapters are encountered.

 

[smaller]

[/SIZE]

Um...smaller....your quote might have some validity if this thread were talking about us keeping a Watch out for the Kingdom of God. But it's not. It's about keeping a watch out for BABYLON THE GREAT! Watching for the rise of Babylon the Great will tell us WHEN the Kingdom of God is at hand:::

24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. ​

Ah, so no other powers are involved with these matters other than matters seen with eyes on the outside? lol w/ that angle.​

[/quote]

This is pure pyscho-babble. Are you a pyschotherepist? Maybe a self-help guru? Tony Robbins fan? Enemy within>>? I have no enemy within Brother. The Holy Spirit abides in me.[/quote]

Look, not being able to grasp concepts is one thing. Pulling the kind of stunts you display above isn't really required. If you don't get it, you don't get it, that's all.

IF we both agreed for example that behind the scenes devils blind and use the parties in question that you are looking at, where is your gripe?

So your solution is to just tell us to shut up and not talk about it? Oh plz....

Not at all. But to NOT see the blinding using powers in these matters is to miss a pretty big portion of the picture.

I give you a big fat yawn cos you are getting REALLY boring now. If you dont want to join with us in analyzing revelation then be off with you!

hmmm...join with 'us' in analyzing what? I mentioned 3 populist writers on these matters who are all easily proved WRONG. They provide nothing but phony guesswork. I find little value in phony guesswork. Is that a problem?

Ok I get it. Your one of these guys who thinks Isreal in the NT refers only to the political state of Isreal (the little horn).

Uh, no. Guess again.

So we cant possibly blame the Pharisees like Jesus did.

That is your opinion. That opinion is void of fact and easily proven to be void of fact. Yet it is funny. We can both read the scriptures where Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the pharisees and you see only the pharisees.

Do you work for the ADL Smaller?

Oh boy. How about you light me a cigarette, blindfold me and put me under a light bulb in a dark room and see if you can wrench out a confession from me with a billy club?

You certainly put much vigour into defending the Synagogue of Satan.

And that statement comes from where again? If you see me 'defending Satan' please cite the statements where I said so. IF you are saying that Jews are Satan then you would be, er, ah...what is that term again? Can you spell ANTI-SEMETIC?

Hey! Who do you think the Synagogue of Satan is?? Thoughts?

Uh, Satan?

Of course you'll say they are the devils within us>>>Lolz.

Yeah, I do believe scriptures make a pretty easily proven case for that. Wanna go there? Can you?

JEW BLAMERS?? Ouch!! I AM A JEW (who believes in christ). So am I blaming myself and other normal Jews??

hmmm....maybe you should just come out and say that the certain Jewish parties with whom you are pointing to are really devils?

[/SIZE]

I think your pyschonautic exploration of the spooky enemy within sounds more like the horror movie>>> Demons inside....yeahhhhhhh riiiiiiiiggghhtt! [/quote]

Oh, I don't doubt the thought of that is repugnant to some. But the fact remains that ALL HAVE SIN and do actions of SIN and those who do so are also factually of the devil. You can 'inside job' those facts however you please. They aren't changing.

Trying to scare everyone into thinking Satan is living inside them instead of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

First of all I don't think 'satan' is a 'living being' but A DEAD ONE. Walking dead. So no, no 'living' inside anyone there is there?

Yes it's all just scary invisible devils isn't it. Couldn't possibly be the Synagogue of Satan comprising of men trying to hoodwink Christians into accepting the NOAHIDE LAWS!!

I have no issues with any command in the Bible if understood properly. I also know that there is a LOT of SPIN that comes into the picture from there that is predicted and planned to happen and depicted in the text and shown for our examples.

Are you keeping a watch out for invisible devils Smaller? Good luck with that!

You may remember that thought every time a false accusation runs through your head, or when guesswork floods your mind.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[omnicopy]

hi!
my, this IS an fascinating study.
i think you are right about Commerce, but also think Strandgelove is closer to the truth. if i may, let's look at Zechrariah 5:

this passage in context is a series of revelations given to Zechariah from and regarding JERUSALEM.

Zechariah 5
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

.................


6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth

an ephah is a commercial measure, like a bushel or basket for grain, etc.

He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.

this commerical measure, or system will be THE SAME throughout the earth.

7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead

lead is pretty serious stuff. nothing gets through it.

and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

women are often used as analogies for religions and/or peoples (Israel and Judah are called harlot sisters).

so, we have a "woman", sitting inside a commercial measure, one that will be worldwide.

8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

so the woman is described as wickedness!
we have wickedness, a "woman" in Jerusalem, being loaded into what will become a worldwide commercial measure.
we know God has described the Great City Jerusalem as an harlot (obviously a geographical place in itself can not be an harlot).
a "woman" can only be considered an harlot by God if she commits adultery against Him.
in order to do that, she had to be betrothed, or dedicated to him in some way.

And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

so the wickedness (woman/harlot) is cast into the commercial system, and sealed inside by lead, meaning there will nothing getting in or out to alter God's decree. this harlot and her wickedness, inside the commercial system will remain that way until God's judgment.

9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.

here are two more women, with wind in their wings: their flight will be swift and unstoppable. the wings of a stork denote strength and power in flight, but the stork is also considered an unclean bird (the Babylonian army taking into captivity?)

they lift up the wickedness of the woman and her commercial system between the earth and the heaven. this is interesting in that it is stated in this way at all: does it mean this woman and her system are neither natural or acceptable to man or heaven?

10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?

where are they taking her and her system, he asks?

11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

WOW!
so they are taking her and her system to BABYLON!
and there they will build her a house, her own house.
this wicked woman and her commercialism is going from Jerusalem to Babylon where it will ESTABLISH a system which will cover the whole earth!
and her house shall be established. not just a temporary thing...

and set there upon her own base.

so she is going to be set there, upon her OWN BASE. nothing whatsoever to do with God. this wicked woman will establish HER OWN RELIGION and COMMERCIAL system that is HER OWN. not of God.

.........................

a little research into what was established in Babylon by mixing the things of God with the things of Babylon (making the things of God of none effect) allows us to look through the lens of Scripture to see this woman and her system now, as God showed Zechariah, fully ESTABLISHED and covering the whole earth.

all nations have drunk of this system.

the entire world is now in the clutches of the "wickedness" of the woman and her commercial system.

Thanks for helping to explain these passages, I've always found them very hard to understand.

It is just incredible to read about the picture of the harlot in Revelation Chapter 17.

Only the woman on the beast in Rev. 17 is the harlot. She has her name on her forehead. She is Babylon the Great. In the last verse it says she is a city, which isn't surprising because usually when the bible uses the word "women" it means a city or nation(?).

I always thought the false churches were the harlot, symbolic wise. Could it be all the false churches built over in Jersalem will cause that city to be the harlot? They are built everywhere, on ever religious site over there (very repugnant, ewww). Do people not have any idea how bad this act is??? I won't even go over to Jerusalem at all! Never been there, never want to go in it's present condition. I will wait until it is called the beloved city.

Certainly Jerusalem has been caled the harlot in scriptures many times. Here at the end of the ages as she has given herself over to all the false churches that plague her lanscape, Jerusalem is playing the final harlot!!! She invites all the false christians from all over the world to come to her, almost like hiring her lovers again! She's doing the same thing again, just adding sin to sin, rebellion to rebellion over and over again!!! She gets help from all her false christian friends all the time! Jerusalem is committing fornication and adutery all over again and this time it is even worse than before!

I think this city could very well be Jerusalem.

Kim