Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots

[Strangelove]

Ah, so no other powers are involved with these matters other than matters seen with eyes on the outside? lol w/ that angle.

Where did I say no other powes are involved? You bear false witness.

IF we both agreed for example that behind the scenes devils blind and use the parties in question that you are looking at, where is your gripe?

My gripe is that you dont want me to alert my brethren to real world dangers. Actual real people who are plotting to kill them with stealthy antichrist laws.

Not at all. But to NOT see the blinding using powers in these matters is to miss a pretty big portion of the picture.

How can we see the blinding powers if they are invisible. Do you have special spectacles?

I'm AWARE of the invisible powers from scripture. Nothing I can do about them. they are supernatural and superhuman. HUMANS I CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT!

We can both read the scriptures where Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the pharisees and you see only the pharisees.

He spoke to men. He spoke to and recognised the Pharisees as hypocrites and snakes. Did He mention a disclaimer that the Pharisees wern't guilty of anything and actually it was just the little devils inside them that bore all the guilt?

IF you are saying that Jews are Satan then you would be, er, ah...what is that term again? Can you spell ANTI-SEMETIC?

LolZ!! Your ADL arrows come straight back off my Holy Spirit force field.

(**Smaller ::: Drat! Putting ANTI-SEMETIC in capitals isn't working!**)

Doc : Who are the Synagogue of Satan??

Smallers Answer >>>> Uh, Satan?

So the 2 are the same? Why the distinction?

3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say
they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to
come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved
thee.

Huh? Who is the Lord talking about here. Is He talking about Satan or men? Who are the guys who say they are Jews but lie? ​

hmmm....maybe you should just come out and say that the certain Jewish parties with whom you are pointing to are really devils?

Um....no.....they are human beings. Ya definatley humans

First of all I don't think 'satan' is a 'living being' but A DEAD ONE. Walking dead.

(**Giggle**) So....now you've gone from poltergeist possessions to....um....ZOMBIES!!! Lolz....this just gets better and better>> Whats next? Are you gonna claim that the 144,000 are actually the Hawkmen from Flash Gorden?? LOLZ!


Smallers response to the NOAHIDE LAWS>>>

I have no issues with any command in the Bible if understood properly. I also know that there is a LOT of SPIN that comes into the picture from there that is predicted and planned to happen and depicted in the text and shown for our examples.

So you are a fan of the Noahide Laws then?

 

[smaller]

[/SIZE]
Where did I say no other powes are involved? You bear false witness.

You understand then that there may, just MAY be other things going on with the Jews in question then that are NOT THEM, but ARE of the powers of darkness that cannot be seen?

My gripe is that you dont want me to alert my brethren to real world dangers. Actual real people who are plotting to kill them with stealthy antichrist laws.

All laws in the Bible are against lawlessness in whomever such lawlessness is found. I have no issue with these Divine Intentions. You?

How can we see the blinding powers if they are invisible. Do you have special spectacles?

The Word of God does a fairly good job. Spin the specs as you wish from there. There is no question that DEVILS are presented in the equations and there is also no question that 'they' are NOT the same as the 'mankind' they inhabit and no question that 'they' are UNSEEN by eyes of flesh.

But the scriptures do certainly present such matters don't they?

I'm AWARE of the invisible powers from scripture. Nothing I can do about them. they are supernatural and superhuman. HUMANS I CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT!

Obviously THAT FACT doesn't seem to interest you. Your statement of nothing you can do ABOUT FACT is false. You can certainly understand what is happening and HAS HAPPENED in the past to those whom you question, render those FACTS into the equations, understand HOW it happens, and perhaps AVOID being blinded in various forms yourself by those same FACTS. And if you get even a SEMI grip on the facts you may even CUT THOSE SLAVES SOME SLACK because of the FACT which cannot be avoided.

He spoke to men. He spoke to and recognised the Pharisees as hypocrites and snakes. Did He mention a disclaimer that the Pharisees wern't guilty of anything and actually it was just the little devils inside them that bore all the guilt?

Spin the fact however you please. When Jesus spoke to DEVILS in mankind and reacted WITH SAME Jesus was dealing with AN ENTITY CLASS that was NOT the same as the PEOPLE that entity class was IN. Is this a hard concept for you to grasp or to see? Why in the LIGHT of this fact would you see ONLY 'mankind of the Pharisees?' When the FACT stares you right in the face?

LolZ!! Your ADL arrows come straight back off my Holy Spirit force field.

And that is just more hoo ha ha on your part.

(**Smaller ::: Drat! Putting ANTI-SEMETIC in capitals isn't working!**)

Doc : Who are the Synagogue of Satan??

So the 2 are the same? Why the distinction?

3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say
they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to
come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved
thee.​

Well, allow me to scratch your brain just a tad with the little observation that IF DEVILS were IN the JEWS who was THE SYNAGOGE of SATAN? Yeah, that's a real brain twister isn't it​

Huh? Who is the Lord talking about here. Is He talking about Satan or men? Who are the guys who say they are Jews but lie? ​

Yeah, let us NOT look at the obvious eh?​

Um....no.....they are human beings. Ya definatley humans

So say you. Bible say otherwise. No one reading with ANY form of comprehension skills can read the text and NOT come away with the facts that DEVILS and MANKIND exist and that they exist 'with' mankind. Pretty basic stuff here strangey.

(**Giggle**) So....now you've gone from poltergeist possessions to....um....ZOMBIES!!! Lolz....this just gets better and better>> Whats next? Are you gonna claim that the 144,000 are actually the Hawkmen from Flash Gorden?? LOLZ!

You are rather fond of deflection from fact. What do you want me to say about that other than to point it out?

Smallers response to the NOAHIDE LAWS>>>



So you are a fan of the Noahide Laws then?

Perhaps you could be a fan of reading and responding to the statements I put up. I have NO ISSUES with ANY LAW in the Bible if understood properly.

Paul and ALL the Apostles gave us the proper applications for EVERY LAW in the Bible. Do you know the scriptures well enough to get to that point in a factual conversation. Or do you want to play spin and strawman games?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Yawn Smaller...

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore. You claim theres no evil people in the world....it's all Satan. No man is accountable for their crimes against other men and against God. Whatever.

I will ask you this though>>>

Are the Noahide Laws Biblical?

Do they apply to us today?

Can you address the Noahide Laws specifically plz.?

 

[smaller]

Yawn Smaller...

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore. You claim theres no evil people in the world....

Yeah, right. Where you see me saying that please cite same for accuracy. What you more than likely and apparently DON'T like is when the fact is brought to the personal table.

it's all Satan. No man is accountable for their crimes against other men and against God. Whatever.

Don't have a clue where you got that one either. But if you think Satan is going to become lawful anytime soon you will be waiting a very long time.

I will ask you this though>>>

Are the Noahide Laws Biblical?

Do they apply to us today?

Can you address the Noahide Laws specifically plz.?

Yes, EVERY COMMAND in the entirety of the BIBLE is FULLY APPLICABLE.

Read all about HOW that is so in Romans 13:8-10 and a myriad of confirming scriptures of like understandings.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

The Seven Laws of Noah , often referred to as the Noahide Laws or Noachide Code, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are

1.Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God. (INCLUDING CHRIST!)
2.Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3.Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4.Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.
5.Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6.Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7.Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

The Noahide Laws comprise the six laws which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16[4] and a seventh one, which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later at the Revelation at Sinai the Seven Laws of Noah were regiven to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments, which are part of, and not separate from, the 613 mitzvot. These laws are mentioned in the Torah.

According to Judaism, the 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore binding only upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. At the same time, at Mount Sinai, the Children of Israel were given the obligation to teach other nations the embedded Noahide Laws.

However, it is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews (on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding) to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do.

While some Jewish organizations, such as Chabad have worked to promote the acceptance of Noahide laws, there are no figures for how many actually do.

Breaking Any of the Noahide Laws will be punishable by BEHEADING!

 

[smaller]

Well, here. I hate to do this but Paul appears to be exceptionally clear on this matter right here. If you bothered to look it up and read it....you would have zero need of the sensationalism above:

Romans 13:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Are the 'noahide laws/commandments' laws or commandments?

How then are they applicable and to be understood? On the BASIS PAUL TAUGHT I have ZERO ISSUES with ANY COMMAND in the entire BIBLE. Now, if any man wants to SPIN THOSE LAWS some other way, I might suggest a simple CLOSER READ OF PAUL.

seriously...this is not rocket science.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Well, here. I hate to do this but Paul appears to be exceptionally clear on this matter right here. If you bothered to look it up and read it....you would have zero need of the sensationalism above:

Romans 13:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Are the 'noahide laws/commandments' laws or commandments?

How then are they applicable and to be understood? On the BASIS PAUL TAUGHT I have ZERO ISSUES with ANY COMMAND in the entire BIBLE. Now, if any man wants to SPIN THOSE LAWS some other way, I might suggest a simple CLOSER READ OF PAUL.

seriously...this is not rocket science.

enjoy!

smaller

But the Noahide Laws are TALMUDIC CHRIST HATING DOCTRINAL INTERPRETATIONS.

So why do you advocate them?

 

[smaller]

But the Noahide Laws are TALMUDIC CHRIST HATING DOCTRINAL INTERPRETATIONS.

So why do you advocate them?

I expect very few people to read and comprehend the simplicity of ANY COMMAND as Paul described them in Romans 13:8-10. I believe Paul's read on ANY COMMAND is the only valid way to read ANY command, exactly as Paul described.

Now, go look at how many variants there are of reading those same commands. Do YOU accept those commands as PAUL defined how they are to be comprehended? If NOT, why NOT? Perhaps it is because NATURAL MEN can NOT submit to PAUL'S understandings, which Paul stated would happen quite long ago.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

You for example may certainly LOOK at 'talmudic Jews' and conclude from their FALSE understandings of LAW (take yer pick from scripture) that even though THEY THINK they are 'being lawful' by the very FACT that any such legalist would seek TO KILL another person they are certainly not LOVING THEM and therefore are VIOLATING the SPIRITUAL INTENTIONS of ANY COMMAND. And if you did this, BRAVO for you.

But you should at least understand that it is NOT POSSIBLE for ANY carnal mind to be LEGAL in the way that Paul defined same in Romans 13:8-10 just as it is NOT POSSIBLE for any CARNAL MIND to even understand THE LAW as Paul described same in Romans 13:8-10.

You also more than likely READ the Noahide laws without the application of understanding that Paul directed, and instead will PERVERT THEM to some other bizzare conclusion.

The conclusion of PAUL in relation to ANY COMMAND is FIXED and LOCKED. No other avenues of interpretations are LEFT OPEN for TWISTING by the Apostle.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

I dont obey ANY other laws than Christ's 2 commandments.

To Love God....and love others.

No other laws interest me in the slightest....

.....ESPECIALLY NOT TALMUDIC LAWS.

You Juadaize Mr.Smaller.

I've got your number.

Enjoy!

 

[Strangelove]

FROM - Revive me O Lord

The NWO will not be “Lawlessâ€; it will not be Anarchy or a “lawless peaceâ€, as some New Agers dream it. There will be control over people. The Beast government system and the Babylon one world religion will enforce new world Law: the Noahide Laws.

The followers of Babylonian Talmudic Judaism, all the religions, the Atheists and the Fake Christians will all comply together as one with this Vatican-Masonic Babylonian Talmudic Judaistic luciferian new world Law. It shall be considered civilized, philosophically wise and a Humanistic duty to obey.

Those who comply would be considered cooperative with the goals of Human survival and world peace and safety, and compliance with global government and world order. Those who do not will be considered enemies of the State, immoral, idolaters and blasphemers. Noahide Law keeping will also be akin to achieving moral (self) righteousness.

These laws are to be a moral code for “Gentiles†to know and do what is morally right, in order to achieve favor with God.

But we are not “Gentilesâ€- we are true Israel; we are in Christ. His seed and His Spirit is in us. We are therefore exempt from requirement to obey these laws. Our righteousness is not in law-keeping. Jesus Christ alone is all our righteousness. His blood is our righteousness. Our law is the law of Christ. Our law is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; to believe the gospel.

Our law is to forsake all and follow Him; to abide in Jesus Christ. Our law is to hear His voice and follow Him wherever He goes. Our law is to abide in the Truth. His commandments are written on our heart. He has given us the power to love and obey His Great Commandment: to love the LORD our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as we love ourself.

He has also given us a new commandment: to love one another. Our special love for the brethren in Christ as He has given us to one another as brothers and sisters in Him, is a blessing as we minister edification to one another because of the love of the saints for the Lord Jesus Christ, and because of His love for them.
Our law is to hear His voice and follow Him wherever He goes. He goes to submission to the will of God the Father, to death, burial and resurrection.

Our law is to obey the gospel and to follow Jesus Christ. We do not have to obey these Noahide laws; we obey the law of Christ, for love for Him, and because He is our Master; the owner of our souls. By loving, obeying and following Jesus Christ as God, we will be considered guilty of breaking the idolatry and blasphemy portions of the Noahide laws. The penalty is death. The issue will not be religious traditions and practices of cultural Christianity.

The issue will be obedience to satan or obedience to YHWH. The issue will be the devotion and allegiance of our hearts to the Man, Jesus Christ, our God and Savior. The issue will be love and devotion to Christ in our heart. The issue will be the will, desire and determination to trust Him. The issue will be our belief in His identity. The issue will be our worship of Him. The issue will be our declaration and submission to His power and His authority over our lives, and over all creation.

The issue will be our declaration of who He is and who we are in Him. It will come down to our love for the One who loves us, gave Himself for us, died for us, and made us His.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. Rev.6:9

 

[smaller]

I dont obey ANY other laws than Christ's 2 commandments.

To Love God....and love others.

No other laws interest me in the slightest....

If what Paul said was true, then you are following those laws regardless just as Paul taught.

.....ESPECIALLY NOT TALMUDIC LAWS.

You Juadaize Mr.Smaller.

I've got your number.

Enjoy!

lol w/that angle.

 

[zone]

been there done all that. i won't waste too much time going over. you and i believe differently. but i will point out some errors in your theory, which may encourgare you to reconsider:


Indeed. Even the voice of the bridegroom and the bride were/are 'in her.'


Rev. 17
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

(WOE to that one by whom offences come-Luke 17)

not sure what you're trying to say here....that this avenging has ALREADY taken place? or that it is taking place invisibly? just because the symbolic language of Revelation is difficult, is not a reason to spiritualize it. i see the fulfillment in real time and real events, as spelled out perfectly in allegorical language. if you don't that's fine. no hard feelings.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

in whom is all the blood of the prophets (past) and saints (future) spilled?
who did Jesus say He held responsible for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth going back all the way to Abel? >> someone in Brussels, or the local pentecostal church?

if you can truthfully ignore that Jesus said it was Jerusalem who killed the prophets, then it is easy to ignore the rest of the allegorical reference to the great city.


Anyone who reads about the whore, her works and whereabouts from Rev. 17 on, and comes to conclusions about physical cities and or religious sects, physical nations of people (like the infamous 200 million man chinese army) or even people or a particular individual person as the 'anti-Christ' would do themselves well to study a bit more before jumping headlong into ridiculous speculations.

i say the same about hose who spiritualize what is currently and will be literally fulfilled. i'm familiar with this appraoch but it doesn't work.

The entirety of the book of Rev. can only be understood allegorically, and there are FEW good allegorical students.

not so. i understand aspects of revelation NOW because i can see their fulfillment.

but you are right that there are few good allegorical students, because they are just that: students of the allegories (symbology, but never bring it forward to see the literal fulfillment).

this approach would have the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ become not much more than poetry. the opening passages in this book say John was 9though imprisoned on Patmos) carried forward in time by The Spirit to THE LORD'S DAY (Second Advent) and shown the sequence of events which would take place prior to, during and after. John was shown things "which must shortly come to pass"...why just allegorical spiritual language if he was to give us a report of what would be taking place around the Lord's Day?

The MAIN CHARACTERS of the topics addressed therein are THREE FOLD as to POSITIONS or ENTITY CLASSES. These are:

GOD and His Heavenly Messengers
MANKIND
DEVILS

It should hit a few minds that since the above 3 categories of players is relatively obvious it should also be relatively obvious that TWO out of the THREE are INVISIBLE. IF you come out of this post remembering this ONE FACT you will stay out of a LOT of time wasting performing phony witch hunts for a physical whore, a physical anti-Christ, a physical CITY, a physical person, etc etc etc.

however, men are not invisible. men are carrying out, according to the Sovereign Will of God, aided or hindered by either good or bad entities, His Plan, according to what IS WRITTEN. by knowing what is written, we can see what men are doing.

THE MAJORITY OF THE ACTION is behind the scenes and will NEVER be seen on the outside.

true that the driving action is behind the scenes (and all from the Throne Room by directive), but it is played out here on earth. in case we want to know what is happening, God was good enough to WRITE IT DOWN.

Revelation is about the forthcoming RULE IN TOTALITY of JESUS CHRIST over ALL HIS ENEMIES. That GREAT MOUNTAIN not made by HANDS who DESTROYS the IMAGE OF Nebuchadnezzer, the king of BABYLON who are depicted in the APOCALYPSE of JOHN.

the image which included Nebuchadnezzer, the head of gold was detroyed literally when Christ came the first time, finsihing with the ten toes of the Roamn Empire (Imperial Rome). that image is not the same as daniels' 4th beast, nor is it the same as Mystery Babylon.

focusing on Daniel (which will wake up faithful Torah only jews) leads to misunderstanding.

So here is CLUE # 2 about physical understandings. Since Rev is about HIS FORTHCOMING VICTORY...this is HOW we are to WATCH or OBSERVE:

Luke 17:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

you've misunderstood...the kingdom of God is within you. is not correct. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that He had arrived, that the Kingdom of God in His Person was AMONG them, in the midst of them, yet they saw it (Him) NOT. nothing has changed today because the same wicked hybrid Babylonian Talmudic Religion that was being practised in His day is still practiced today.

my computer is acting up so i'll post this part and continue.....zone

 

[Strangelove]

If what Paul said was true, then you are following those laws regardless just as Paul taught.

GREAT! So were agreed then. As long as we follow Christs 2 commandments we dont need to look at ANY OT Law or any other laws that anyone throws at us.

Correct Mr.Smaller?

We can ignore ALL laws even OT ones. They have nada to do with us.

 

[zone]

cont...

So LO HERE, Jerusalem? Uh, no. Or LO THERE, the JEWS? Sorry. No horseshoe.

not sure what you mean, since you have used a bad translation for the Kingdom of God in your midst.

The action is going to transpire in that BATTLE 'within.' THAT happens also to be WHERE THE EMEMIES are....Just as JESUS lives the the HEARTs of HIS...so do the other players in the drama abide WITHIN man, but are NOT the same as MANKIND.

perhaps you have a battle within...i don't. i have the Spirit within.
our Sword is the Word. we battle against lies and deceptions, which deceive us in the real world.

i'm curious as to how you spiritualize 2 Thessalonains 2.

spiritualizing Scripture in this way could go all the way to questioning whether there was even an Historical Jesus, and if He suffered a literal Crucifixtion...if He rose Bodily...and so on. there's no end to this approach.

I've spent decades in Revelation and I don't have many 'fixed' positions on these matters yet. But there really are a few simple rules to keep one on track. Allegory is a tough gig filled with plenty of landmines to blow any theories apart, and more importantly to KEEP PEOPLE DIVIDED and BICKERING, which of course DEVILS really get a HOOT from. That is why there is little agreement about Revelation in the entire spectrums of the churches, because it IS that difficult. Tim LaHaye? Hal Lindsey? Dave Hunt?

those 3 are false teachers and those who follow them are also blind.

Let me just insert A BIG FAT YAWN.

And the JEW BLAMERS? Seriously. Take a number. Anti-Semitism ain't a new demonic hatred on the block.

if you had really spent decades UNDERSTANDING Revelation you would know we are not looking FOR JACOB. we are looking for imposters who claim to be Jacob. so your pavlovian conditioned response using a new word called antisemtism is evidence that you not only don't understand who The Pharisees were, nor who is in religious authority today in the Nation of Israel, but that you are indeed assisting them (albeit in ignorance)....no offense intended, but this is not a game.

Rev 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

the unpardonable sin was comitted by the Pharisees who calimed Jesus performed miracles as a result of witchcraft. they are committing it today. LITERALLY, not figuratively.


My first post in this thread I pointed out to the thread starter that ALL OF ISRAEL were taught in the O.T. scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN so any theory making THEM the bad guys can't even get out of the starting gate. One does not UN MAKE themselve a CHILD OF GOD. They were AND REMAIN as Gods Chosen People and there are some FANTASTICALLY WONDERFUL scriptures in BEHALF of them ALL throughout the text regardless of their present state of BLINDNESS. See Romans 11:25-32 and you should be able to see that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be SAVED, YES, EVEN THE JEWISH ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL. So them, the JEWS or THEIR CITY being the whore or the anti-christ or the whateverrrr is soooo much baloney.

ALL OF ISRAEL were taught in the O.T. scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN

IF THEY ARE SAVED BY GRACE. not all will be. Paul and Isaiah confirm:

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

To try to take people down blind rat hole theories may tantalize people with the tastes of various FEARS like a good vampire movie, but do they make for sound theological/eschtology understandings? Prolly not. Oh well.

i'm not taking anyone anywhere. we all do as we see fit.
as for fear, what fear?

Any 'end times' theory that MISSES ONE THIRD of the PARTIES INVOLVED, the invisible world of DEVILS isn't even worth looking upon. That entity class, their AROUSAL and their forthcoming DESTRUCTION comprises THE BULK of the document. And if one hasn't studied out that end of the spectrum from the other parts of the texts, they won't last a credible minute in Rev. Their understandings will be FAIRY TALES from the MIND CRYPT to scare little children in the dark of night with pictures of the MAN ANTI-CHRIST chopping off their heads for praying 'now I lay me down to sleep.'

you said you've spent decades in Revelation. does your interpretation say that Jesus and John used the following passges as a firy tale, or to frighten little children? we are not to be as little children, tossed to and fro....but to be didligent and secure in our FAITH.

Revelation 20:9
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

why did John say beheaded specifically? to scare people needlessly?

John starts out Revelation addressing by the directions of JESUS speaking about and to SATAN in the 7 CHURCHES....and every last congregant will say in their heart...NOT ME...and they do so by the very POWER that SITS UPON THEIR MOUNTAIN TOP...yeah, MOUNTAIN TOPS are allegorical many ways in the text to YOUR MIND. Yeah, that is where THE BATTLE ground is with GOG and MAGOG...in YER HEAD...and at the END there will be SO MUCH LIGHT shining therein ALL DARKNESS SHALL DISPEL. So if you don't get it now, YOU WILL then.

satan in the church letters? my goodness your spiritualization of everything is skewed. Gog and Magog are in my head? what am i, THE WORD OF GOD?

The REVELATION account is NOT about Jerusalem, Jews, Thee Anti-Christ as a physical king-ruler of this planet....NONE of that...

It's about GOD, THE DEVIL AND YOU. Every ONE of you reading this IS presently engaged in REVELATION matters and you may not even know it. It ain't something yer gonna read about in the newspapers when Israel gits around to nuking Iran. That will be just another SIDESHOW put on by DEVILS in MEN.

It all happens RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE STANDING....in the TWINKLING of AN EYE, and you STILL can't see it 'cause it happens INSIDE when SIN, EVIL and DEATH are DESTROYED at the END...forever and ever. So yeah, that's cool.

mkay...if you say so.
regards
zone.

 

[zone]

Thanks for helping to explain these passages, I've always found them very hard to understand.

It is just incredible to read about the picture of the harlot in Revelation Chapter 17.

Only the woman on the beast in Rev. 17 is the harlot. She has her name on her forehead. She is Babylon the Great. In the last verse it says she is a city, which isn't surprising because usually when the bible uses the word "women" it means a city or nation(?).

I always thought the false churches were the harlot, symbolic wise. Could it be all the false churches built over in Jersalem will cause that city to be the harlot? They are built everywhere, on ever religious site over there (very repugnant, ewww). Do people not have any idea how bad this act is??? I won't even go over to Jerusalem at all! Never been there, never want to go in it's present condition. I will wait until it is called the beloved city.

Certainly Jerusalem has been caled the harlot in scriptures many times. Here at the end of the ages as she has given herself over to all the false churches that plague her lanscape, Jerusalem is playing the final harlot!!! She invites all the false christians from all over the world to come to her, almost like hiring her lovers again! She's doing the same thing again, just adding sin to sin, rebellion to rebellion over and over again!!! She gets help from all her false christian friends all the time! Jerusalem is committing fornication and adutery all over again and this time it is even worse than before!

I think this city could very well be Jerusalem.

Kim

and you have nailed it.
she is due her final judgment .. she killed the prophets, and she will yet kill the saints.
Titus sacked her and destroyed the Temple Sytem in 70AD.
but The Harlot wants her system back again!
keep in mind that God has said she will rule the world.
the NWO is just consolidation of Power (the beast/a kind kind of Tyrannical Communism).
people and institutions don't have to be physically in Jerusalem to fornicate with her or pimp for her. She is running the run, and will in fact rise to Theocratic Rule (Noahide Laws under Sanhedrin and Rabbinic talmudic Judaism, EXACTLY as it was when Jesus came).

you're right....she is FILTHY today. Jesus cursed the fig tree (Talmud), and swore Jerusalem would remain DESOLATE until He returns...so who is setting up what there today? with help from Hagee and crew?

the Woman has mounted the Beast.

 

[zone]

and you have nailed it.
she is due her final judgment .. she killed the prophets, and she will yet kill the saints.
Titus sacked her and destroyed the Temple Sytem in 70AD.
but The Harlot wants her system back again!
keep in mind that God has said she will rule the world.
the NWO is just consolidation of Power (the beast/a kind kind of Tyrannical Communism).
people and institutions don't have to be physically in Jerusalem to fornicate with her or pimp for her. She is running the run, and will in fact rise to Theocratic Rule (Noahide Laws under Sanhedrin and Rabbinic talmudic Judaism, EXACTLY as it was when Jesus came).

you're right....she is FILTHY today. Jesus cursed the fig tree (Talmud), and swore Jerusalem would remain DESOLATE until He returns...so who is setting up what there today? with help from Hagee and crew?

the Woman has mounted the Beast.

sorry about the typos...my keyboard is sticky:yeslol.

anyone can just google Noahide Laws and find out the secret mystery religions (masonry etc) have been carrying this forward. masons claim they are the original "noahcides/noachites", descendents of the Amorites. they say they were Hiram's hired labour on the temple, and Solomon's own house. .. their ritauls are obsessed with Solomon.

the Talmud and rabbis say the king of israel will be a descendent of David through Solomon, yet Luke tells us Jesus came through David, but through his OTHER SON NATHAN, not the idolator Solomon.

search the only two references in the bible to:

six hundred threescore and six.
cheers.
zone.:shocked!

 

[smaller]

or that it is taking place invisibly? just because the symbolic language of Revelation is difficult, is not a reason to spiritualize it.

We do not LAY physical eyes on 2 outta 3 of the classes of beings in Rev.

i see the fulfillment in real time and real events, as spelled out perfectly in allegorical language. if you don't that's fine. no hard feelings.

IF ALL THE PLAYERS in the DRAMA are put out for viewing. IF they are missing however, then that understanding is VOID of FACT.

in whom is all the blood of the prophets (past) and saints (future) spilled?
who did Jesus say He held responsible for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth going back all the way to Abel? >> someone in Brussels, or the local pentecostal church? if you can truthfully ignore that Jesus said it was Jerusalem who killed the prophets, then it is easy to ignore the rest of the allegorical reference to the great city.

You do understand that the OPERATIONS of SATAN and DEVILS did and still DO transpire IN the people of Jerusalem and the people of the WHOLE WORLD, right? And if so, I simply ask anyone wanting to NOT point to that FACT...why NOT see the WORLD OF DEVILS and SATAN via ALLEGORY? A HUGE number of SAINTS existed/exist and were/will be KILLED OUTSIDE of the physical city of Jerusalem The physical city is NOT what those matters point to. In HER was found the blood of ALL that were slain upon the earth.

i say the same about hose who spiritualize what is currently and will be literally fulfilled. i'm familiar with this appraoch but it doesn't work.

IF you want to say that the ENTIRE unseen world of SATAN and his messengers HAVE nothing to do with the matters of Revelation OR that you must LOOK only at a physical city or physical MAN or group of MEN only, I can only laugh at the VOID those views bring.

not so. i understand aspects of revelation NOW because i can see their fulfillment.

Perhaps you can simply rubber stamp your positions for me as a category, like preterism, or classify as pre-mid-post rapture theories or ammillenialism or pre-mill or post-mill. Rapture theories in general do break down into one of SIX larger bodies of study as referenced herein.

but you are right that there are few good allegorical students, because they are just that: students of the allegories (symbology, but never bring it forward to see the literal fulfillment).

If you want to put your 70 a.d. fulfillment cards on the table, please say so.

this approach would have the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ become not much more than poetry.

And that would simply be your false spin trying to apply itself to VERY REAL operating powers that are deployed by ALLEGORIES for understandings of just as VERY REAL engagements with those powers. No, it AIN'T just fancy poetry at ALL. The accounts are VERY real matters and YET to transpire fully. Those events will be FULLY transpired when the DEVIL and his messengers are PUT INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE forever and ever, and THAT has not yet happened.

the opening passages in this book say John was 9though imprisoned on Patmos) carried forward in time by The Spirit to THE LORD'S DAY (Second Advent) and shown the sequence of events which would take place prior to, during and after. John was shown things "which must shortly come to pass"...why just allegorical spiritual language if he was to give us a report of what would be taking place around the Lord's Day?

I don't discount the previous, present and future views of Rev. whatsoever. What those consist of are quite clear. The applicability of Gods Words in Christ to those CHURCHES remains with their allegorical conveyances to the PARTIES that are STILL HERE, that being the devil and his messengers and the 'church members' who are alive presently.

however, men are not invisible. men are carrying out, according to the Sovereign Will of God, aided or hindered by either good or bad entities, His Plan, according to what IS WRITTEN. by knowing what is written, we can see what men are doing.

Well, I guess part of my reasonings in these matters is that IF what you say above is TRUE, which I believe it IS TRUE, then it is NOT and CAN NOT be true that it is MAN ALONE, which is my general point in these matters. One can NOT just look at MAN and logically say THAT'S it because that is NOT the case.

true that the driving action is behind the scenes (and all from the Throne Room by directive), but it is played out here on earth. in case we want to know what is happening, God was good enough to WRITE IT DOWN.

Indeed. But let's not just say God Alone without the enemies in VIEW as well. And if there is the FORTHCOMING total destruction of entities that CAN NOT be visibly SEEN then it is most unlikely that we will be watching that destruction from a PHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE only.

the image which included Nebuchadnezzer, the head of gold was detroyed literally when Christ came the first time, finsihing with the ten toes of the Roamn Empire (Imperial Rome). that image is not the same as daniels' 4th beast, nor is it the same as Mystery Babylon.

Ah, now you are stepping into at least a partial preterist pair of shoes. OK. But as a consideration you might ALSO consider that when the physical inhabitants were scattered throughout the face of the planet AFTER the 'dispersion' they were in fact seeded into WORLD BABYLON from whence they will ALSO eventually be gathered.


Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Jeremiah 51:
41 How is Sheshach taken! and how is the praise of the whole earth surprised! how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!
42 The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof.
43 Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby.
44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.
45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the Lord.


The above depictions are not about a physical city, a literal man or anything else BUT the ultimate DESTRUCTION of SATAN and DEVILS and the RESCUE of Israel. These matters are depicted in the O.T. by the previous PHYSICAL EVENTS but their fulfillment is found in the LAST and FINAL battle called THE GREAT DAY OF WRATH when that entire ENTITY class of SATAN and his messengers are totally destroyed.

focusing on Daniel (which will wake up faithful Torah only jews) leads to misunderstanding.

I take my notes on these matters from all writers with the tools deployed to do so. One of those 'tools' is given by Paul in 1 Cor. 15 in a simple principal called first the natural, then the spiritual. In the O.T. we have NATURAL and PHYSICAL depictions of what IS TO COME in the tensions between the SPIRITUAL of GOD and the ANTI-Christ spirits that GOD is going to HAVE OFF with to the LAKE.

Jesus used the O.T. in similar allegorical fashions when stating as in the days of Noah or of Lot to depict the forthcoming destruction of DEVILS.

you've misunderstood...the kingdom of God is within you. is not correct. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that He had arrived, that the Kingdom of God in His Person was AMONG them, in the midst of them, yet they saw it (Him) NOT. nothing has changed today because the same wicked hybrid Babylonian Talmudic Religion that was being practised in His day is still practiced today.

Man is not alone in these matters. Children of the DEVIL were spoken to IN Pharisees and they will be spoken to AGAIN, even in BELIEVERS.

 

[Sparkey]

When the Holy Spirit speaks to "those who have wisdom", do we include ourselves or excuse ourselves?

Those to run in, saying "This is for me! I'll solve the age old mystery, BEHOLD my wisdom," seldom fail to impress me, but not in the manner they want.

There is a mystery that has been prophesied about from days of old. It is actually solved by the wisdom of Solomon. The one who seeks to save the baby is the mother. The one who wishes to split it? Who cares not about it remaining whole and ONE is the false church.

I personally believe that although this mystery is great, it is best for me to wait until it is revealed and in the meantime to love the brethren with a fervent love - to act as I am able, to do what I am given to do, and to follow after Christ and His Disciples who admonish me to love others as I love myself. With than in mind, might I plead with each brother (even my "older brother") to refrain from the appearance of evil so that we no longer allow anything to come out of our mouth that looks like mockery?

Some things are simply not lovely. Having said that, let me also go on to welcome you, "Doc" to the forum and say that I do look forward to hearing more of what you wish to share.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[Strangelove]

Some things are simply not lovely. Having said that, let me also go on to welcome you, "Doc" to the forum and say that I do look forward to hearing more of what you wish to share.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

Thank you so much for your welcome Sparrowhawke.

I'm sorry if things in my post appear to be mockery. Maybe sometimes they are. I know I'm guilty of it sometimes. Alas I find that humour is one of the things that I have to fall back on sometimes. It's one of the only things which get me through dicussions with people who are obstinate and illogical and who continue to cover their eyes and ears to the truth.

::::::::: Doc.

 

[Strangelove]

Thanks for helping to explain these passages, I've always found them very hard to understand.

It is just incredible to read about the picture of the harlot in Revelation Chapter 17.

Only the woman on the beast in Rev. 17 is the harlot. She has her name on her forehead. She is Babylon the Great. In the last verse it says she is a city, which isn't surprising because usually when the bible uses the word "women" it means a city or nation(?).

I always thought the false churches were the harlot, symbolic wise. Could it be all the false churches built over in Jersalem will cause that city to be the harlot? They are built everywhere, on ever religious site over there (very repugnant, ewww). Do people not have any idea how bad this act is??? I won't even go over to Jerusalem at all! Never been there, never want to go in it's present condition. I will wait until it is called the beloved city.

Certainly Jerusalem has been caled the harlot in scriptures many times. Here at the end of the ages as she has given herself over to all the false churches that plague her lanscape, Jerusalem is playing the final harlot!!! She invites all the false christians from all over the world to come to her, almost like hiring her lovers again! She's doing the same thing again, just adding sin to sin, rebellion to rebellion over and over again!!! She gets help from all her false christian friends all the time! Jerusalem is committing fornication and adutery all over again and this time it is even worse than before!

I think this city could very well be Jerusalem.

Kim

You got it Kim.

Stick around theres lots more evidence to come.

And lots more we need to learn about our enemy (the human kind...Lolz) so we can protect ourselves and our loved ones when the troubles start ramping up.

Doc.