No answers for problem of evil

[JohnDB]

So God needs to forgive?
I always learned that God needs to love and to share that love.

A natural extension of Love is to give grace and mercy and forgiveness. If God couldn't do these a portion of God's attributes wouldn't be exercised.

To whom would God extend mercy to if it weren't for humans?
To whom would be the recipient of Grace?
Who would need forgiveness?

These actions are very much part and parcel with Love.

And since God is love...

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes FHG,,,this is not what I'm talking about.
I'm discussing HOW evil came about at the very beginning of time.

This too is what I am talking about as the OP is about where did the problem of evil begin. It began with the one we call Satan that God placed in the garden of Eden before He created man. Pride was the first sin against God of Satan's freewill choice to have all that is God's, even God's own beginning with Adam and Eve.

 

[John Doe Smith]

This too is what I am talking about as the OP is about where did the problem of evil begin. It began with the one we call Satan that God placed in the garden of Eden before He created man. Pride was the first sin against God of Satan's freewill choice to have all that is God's, even God's own beginning with Adam and Eve.

So God didn't create everything?

 

[for_his_glory]

So God didn't create everything?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who are cursed for their rebellion against God. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

 

[atpollard]

wondering,

Is putting oil into my Mitsubishi vehicle good or evil?

I'll have cooked king prawns for Christmas lunch. Is eating prawns evil?

I wear a coloured singlet and shorts in the Qld summer heat. Is that evil or good?

How about playing the guitar, drums or banjo?

Is having a wine over dinner doing an evil thing?

I'd love to find another woman for companionship in my older age? Is it evil to have that desire?

I prefer to read modern Bible translations (ERV, NLT, NIV) to the KJV. Is that evil?

Is going to a night club evil?

How about lunch at a local tavern?

Oz

Yup, pretty sure all that is evil. ;)

 

[atpollard]

“The problem of evil” is usually defined in terms of “why does God allow evil“ rather than “where does evil come from”.

The answer to where EVIL comes from is generally a simple one: evil comes from sin.

Some want to argue that ”evil” began with Satan ask if God created the evil in Satan. However the story in scripture was that Satan wanted to be like God and so Satan sinned, thereby creating the evil wrought by his own sinful actions.

Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and they chose to sin, thereby inaugurating the sin in their hearts and lives and offspring.

The perfection of God allows no imperfection to exist in His presence. So the act of sin condemns the sinner to either destruction in the presence of God or banishment from the presence of God.

Evil comes from sin and sin is the choice to do/think/feel other than as God does (the perfect standard). The choice to sin comes from ”free will” (which may not ultimately be free, since we can only do that which is in our nature to do and we are born under the Adamic curse).

However, the quest for the “first evil” leads back to the “first sin” which is made possible by the loving act of God to create beings with the freedom to choose.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me ask you a question. Who was the first one to have been found prideful? Clue, it wasn't man. Who caused man to be tempted? Who was it that tried to tempt Christ, just as Eve was tempted in the garden? Did evil it just manifest from thin air?

Well FHG,,,I'm a bit farther back than him....

 

[GodsGrace]

This too is what I am talking about as the OP is about where did the problem of evil begin. It began with the one we call Satan that God placed in the garden of Eden before He created man. Pride was the first sin against God of Satan's freewill choice to have all that is God's, even God's own beginning with Adam and Eve.

So where does sin come from?

 

[GodsGrace]

A natural extension of Love is to give grace and mercy and forgiveness. If God couldn't do these a portion of God's attributes wouldn't be exercised.

To whom would God extend mercy to if it weren't for humans?
To whom would be the recipient of Grace?
Who would need forgiveness?

These actions are very much part and parcel with Love.

And since God is love...

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does Calvin say God forces anyone to repent ?

Said two weeks by the Calvinist pastor ,

Isn't it amazing that God judged the amorites for 400 years and in the time of Joshua judges them ?He also mentioned God not wanting any to perish and is long suffering ,I even said what you say to me ,and the pastor said then you misunderstand Calvin .

My,pastor is a five pointer as it required to be one in the leadership but its not a salvinical issue.I read up on the pcusa as I asked the pastor where I can find the doctrinal statements .so he pointed me to,the Westminster confession .

He also went into how we are called to be a witness.I,have never heard a Calvinist say God makes one by force choice him.its he touches your heart with irrestable grace and you seing the truth believe .

That's not some barbaric notion of God overdoing my will to deny Him,by force .that's how they see it .
Funny, Funny,many non Calvinist will argue with atheists on this and tell them they truly didn't repent.I have heard many a pastors preach that way and deny the five points.

Well Jason,,,you attend a rather strange 5 point reformed church.

See point no. 2: Unconditional Election.
What does this mean???

 

[GodsGrace]

So God didn't create everything?

You seem to be getting the point here....

for_his_glory and others just don't seem to like going back far enough...it's dangerous territory back there.

 

[OzSpen]

I should buy the NLT --- I have many versions but not that one.
I like 1 Corinthians 15:22 too,,,but who knew about it at 10 years of age? Catholics don't use the bible much - they're just starting now.

Same problem here in Italy. Parents reluctantly send their kids to Catechism...which is what its called nowadays for Catholics. The only reason most send their children is because it's necessary to make Communion at about the age of 9 or 10, otherwise they wouldn't send them at all. The catechists here are also voluntary...I did this for 6 years and then had to stop. Made my own lessons and taught the kids how to use the bible and to love Jesus and depend on Him - while also teaching what was necessary for each year.

And, yes, kids need younger folk that they could relate too, but the younger folk don't care to do this and anyway they just don't know enough and are not willing to learn.

Kids are taught that evil is satan's playground and that everything is infected with this evil. Of course they just accept it and don't dig deeper.

I was even good with this as a new Christian until one day I realized that God PERMITS evil. So back to the drawing board.

Then one day I realized that it had to originate somewhere. WHERE!! Back to the drawing board. But this question has never been answered.

Maybe Calvinists are right...maybe God did create evil.
2

wondering,

If you have access to the Internet on your mobile or PC (as you must have to be writing to us here), I don't use a hard copy of the NLT. I go to Bible Gateway and it is one of the drop-down Bible translations available at: https://www.biblegateway.com/

This year I've been reading through a translation for the deaf whose first language is sign language. It's called the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). For the deaf, the translators had to break down some of the words and translate in shorter sentences. I can quibble over a few of the words translated, but overall I'm being edified by the translation.

So far, I've dealt with the origin of evil in the choices of A & E as the heads of the human race and their free will choice to disobey God's command. Isn't that explanation good enough as the origin of evil?

God cannot be the cause or origin of evil because of his very nature of goodness that includes love, mercy and grace.

We'll get to another dimension of what appears to be evil in action in a few more posts.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Well Jason,,,you attend a rather strange 5 point reformed church.

See point no. 2: Unconditional Election.
What does this mean???

Its not unusual,perhaps listening to them the oldest Calvinist church group in America. Under another pastor out of coral ridge

Unconditional election ,you,didn't deserve to be saved . no of us do.
For the arninist .if the doctrinal starement of predestination is a church .not a person God doesn't fore know,see and plan alreasy what it will be like ?he has to wait on our decision to repent ?he doesn't have to give out the 12 gifts to the church as he fits.

 

[OzSpen]

Well Jason,,,you attend a rather strange 5 point reformed church.

See point no. 2: Unconditional Election.
What does this mean???

Good one wondering!

 

[OzSpen]

Its not unusual,perhaps listening to them the oldest Calvinist church group in America. Under another pastor out of coral ridge

Unconditional election ,you,didn't deserve to be saved . no of us do.
For the arninist .if the doctrinal starement of predestination is a church .not a person God doesn't fore know,see and plan alreasy what it will be like ?he has to wait on our decision to repent ?he doesn't have to give out the 12 gifts to the church as he fits.

jason,

What is an 'arninist'? Is that like a narcissist or an asininist?

I'm also interested in the meaning of 'starement' and 'alreasy'. You are in a different dictionary world to this Aussie. Do they come from your own Urban Dictionary?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So God invented good and somehow evil came of it?
How?

wondering,

I can't follow your line of reasoning. We know that all that God created in the being, including human beings, was 'very good' (Gen 1:31).

THEN, God gave to Adam and Eve the choice to obey him or disobey him (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). In choosing to disobey God, God did not create sin, but human beings did. They broke their relationship with the maker. We see that in Gen 3 when they wanted to hide from him.

So, evil did not 'come of God inventing good'. By the way, he didn't invent good but called his creation good, based on His own understanding of 'good' - His own nature, the goodness of God.

Where is no need to see evil coming out of the good God created in the beginning. Evil was a direct result of human choice = rejecting relationship with God.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So where does sin come from?

wondering,

Could a better question be: How did sin enter the human race and infect the ecological system?

oz

 

[OzSpen]

So God didn't create everything?

JDS,

In your view, what did God not create?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yes FHG,,,this is not what I'm talking about.
I'm discussing HOW evil came about at the very beginning of time.

That's what this thread is. On another forum, a few years ago, this topic came up and it went on for pages and pages because the O.P. would not accept any answer because of the fact that we all came to the conclusion that there is none. I have actually stopped thinking about this seriously for many, many years...but it's still fun when it comes up.

Let's put it this way: Evil entered into MAN in the garden when Original Sin was released at the time that A and E ate of the fruit.
AFTER they ate of the fruit of the knowledge...they became aware of evil and were ashamed, sorry, etc.

But O.S. came into being AFTER they ate...so WHAT caused them to eat of the fruit if O.S. was not in them yet?

It's quite a conundrum if you think about it.

wondering,

In my understanding, it's only a conundrum if one rejects the nature of the first human beings whom God placed in the Garden. They were good but that goodness included freedom of choice. That choice caused them to commit evil (break their relationship with God) and pass on this detrimental consequence to all of their heritage, including the ecology.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I,need to ask there deep,misunderstandings of Calvinism.I attend a Calvinist church.

Jason,

I also attend a Calvinistic church but it won't be for much longer. The youth pastor leave this month with his young family to work in a university campus ministry. He said from the pulpit: 'We need to go out to find the elect'.

I am offended by that statement as it contradicts Scripture: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 ESV).

Our commission as believers is to go into 'the world', proclaim the Gospel and this message is for 'whoever believes'. It doesn't say we should go into the world and find those elected/predestined to believe.

Oz