No answers for problem of evil

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

We still call it Religious Instruction in the secular, state school system in Australia. All religions are given one lesson a week if there are enough children of that faith in the school. It's an opt-in choice by parents to choose if they want their children to attend the classes.

With the atheists, humanists and rationalists opposing it, I can't see it lasting much longer. We have the added problem that for Christianity we can't get enough instructors, who are volunteers and tend to be older age.

I understand the anger against A & E but when I realised they did it in my place (I would have done the same thing), I knew they were as human as I am.

I like the dynamic equivalence translation of 1 Cor 15:22 (NLT) as it conveys the meaning of the text and of what A & E did: 'Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life'.

Oz

I should buy the NLT --- I have many versions but not that one.
I like 1 Corinthians 15:22 too,,,but who knew about it at 10 years of age? Catholics don't use the bible much - they're just starting now.

Same problem here in Italy. Parents reluctantly send their kids to Catechism...which is what its called nowadays for Catholics. The only reason most send their children is because it's necessary to make Communion at about the age of 9 or 10, otherwise they wouldn't send them at all. The catechists here are also voluntary...I did this for 6 years and then had to stop. Made my own lessons and taught the kids how to use the bible and to love Jesus and depend on Him - while also teaching what was necessary for each year.

And, yes, kids need younger folk that they could relate too, but the younger folk don't care to do this and anyway they just don't know enough and are not willing to learn.

Kids are taught that evil is satan's playground and that everything is infected with this evil. Of course they just accept it and don't dig deeper.

I was even good with this as a new Christian until one day I realized that God PERMITS evil. So back to the drawing board.

Then one day I realized that it had to originate somewhere. WHERE!! Back to the drawing board. But this question has never been answered.

Maybe Calvinists are right...maybe God did create evil.
2

 

[GodsGrace]

About 30 years ago I had an accident that dislocated my shoulder. And because I forgot my injury I kept dislocating it.
So I kept it down, low, forward and never raised my elbow above my ear.

But eventually 30 years later muscles atrophied, tendons shortened...and now the ball joint isn't centered....and dislocating all by itself no matter what.

But

I got some physical therapy. Now I lift my elbow above my ear all the time....as much as I can and for any reason I will do so after self restraining myself for so long. That freedom from restriction is wonderful.

Now God is good.... perfectly good.
And when it occurred to Him that forgiveness is a part of being good...he created mankind who had the possibility of choice of needing forgiveness.
Of course there wasn't and isn't license to commit sin. Those that earnestly seek forgiveness will find it.

If God hadn't created man there would be no good forgiveness coming from him...

So God needs to forgive?
I always learned that God needs to love and to share that love.

I've come to think that if the bible doesn't give a clear-cut answer, we really shouldn't dwell on the question too much. We'll find out eventually.

Even Jesus felt like the Apostle couldn't understand everything.
John 8:43 (I think).

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

You really are asking some deep questions. I am challenged in my relationship with God to think through God's revelation to us in Scripture. Thank you for your encouraging comments.

Of A & E you stated they 'chose to disobey. And why was this choice even available to them? THIS IS THE PROBLEM'.

It is only the BIG problem, as I see it, if one doesn't understand the repercussions for the whole of humanity if God did not give all people (including A & E) the ability to choose - free will. The implications of 'no choice' are enormous theologically, ecologically and practically. Imagine if you were forced to become a Christian or believe in God.

The choices A & E were given flow through to Saul choosing to kill Christians before he became Paul, the evangelist-teacher. Imagine if I went into my local Coles supermarket and didn't have the choice of which meat, milk, veggies, drinks, cereal and ice-cream I could buy. Choice is so necessary for life and A & E were the starters of bad choices on the earth.



My, oh my, that priest (theologian and exegete) is a dangerous doubter, influencing others towards the same view. I use that provocative language because God has revealed in Scripture answers to why God made us and the reasons for trials and suffering.

Why did God make human beings? A bigger question is: Why did God make anything at all? We could ask this in a Christian youth group and get a simple answer: 'To bring glory to God'. What does that mean? Does God need to be bragged on to make him God???

Rev 4:11 (NLT) tells us: '“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.” Col 1:16 (NLT) makes a similar point: 'For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him'.

The purpose for human beings and the whole of the created universe is to bring glory, honour and power to God.

Ex 3:14 (NLT) states clearly what is the foundation of glorifying God through our existence: 'God replied to Moses, “I am who I am. Say this to the people of Israel: I am has sent me to you”'.



So God created people with the ability to choose and the whole of creation to draw attention to God. The inference is that to understand/know God will have ominous consequences eternally.



God could not have created evil because that action would be contradictory to his nature - his attribute of goodness that includes his love, benevolence, mercy and grace. This is best encapsulated in Ps 145:9, 15-17 (NLT): 'The eyes of all look to you in hope; you give them their food as they need it. When you open your hand, you satisfy the hunger and thirst of every living thing. The Lord is righteous in everything he does; he is filled with kindness'.

The Lord is 'the God of love' (2 Cor 13:11). His very nature is love (1 Jn 4:8, 16); Eph 2:4 confirms 'God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much' (NLT) and 'we give great honor to those who endure under suffering. For instance, you know about Job, a man of great endurance. You can see how the Lord was kind to him at the end, for the Lord is full of tenderness and mercy' (James 5:11 NLT).

None of these attributes of the goodness of God conform with God as the creator of evil. There is a source of evil, as I've shown in my posts, and it is with human beings - with one significant exception which we call evil but it's not. We'll discuss that later.

Oz


P.S. I note the snow flakes coming across the screen. For me they should be so thick from thunder storms. Had one on Christmas Eve that thundered so loudly it just about threw me out of my lounge chair with the lightning and thunder.

Received Oz...
But after dinner.

 

[jasonc]

I should buy the NLT --- I have many versions but not that one.
I like 1 Corinthians 15:22 too,,,but who knew about it at 10 years of age? Catholics don't use the bible much - they're just starting now.

Same problem here in Italy. Parents reluctantly send their kids to Catechism...which is what its called nowadays for Catholics. The only reason most send their children is because it's necessary to make Communion at about the age of 9 or 10, otherwise they wouldn't send them at all. The catechists here are also voluntary...I did this for 6 years and then had to stop. Made my own lessons and taught the kids how to use the bible and to love Jesus and depend on Him - while also teaching what was necessary for each year.

And, yes, kids need younger folk that they could relate too, but the younger folk don't care to do this and anyway they just don't know enough and are not willing to learn.

Kids are taught that evil is satan's playground and that everything is infected with this evil. Of course they just accept it and don't dig deeper.

I was even good with this as a new Christian until one day I realized that God PERMITS evil. So back to the drawing board.

Then one day I realized that it had to originate somewhere. WHERE!! Back to the drawing board. But this question has never been answered.

Maybe Calvinists are right...maybe God did create evil.
2

I,need to ask there deep,misunderstandings of Calvinism.I attend a Calvinist church.

 

[John Doe Smith]

If evil is just any disobedience of god, isn't saying god created evil like saying the people who invented taxes also invented the possibility of tax evasion? Yes, technically they did. There can't be tax evasion if there are no taxes, and unless it's impossible not to pay your taxes, tax evasion is possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I,need to ask there deep,misunderstandings of Calvinism.I attend a Calvinist church.

How do I misunderstand calvinism?
The reformed believe that God is sovereign and nothing else is to be considered...even free will is absent because there's a fear this would take away God's sovereignty. A rather silly notion, I must say, since if ANYTHING could take away God's sovereignty --- then what lowly sovereign God we would have! We have free will because God FEARS NOTHING because His sovereignty cannot be taken away from Him.

Also, if God is the author of all, then surely evil would be one of these creations. Including murder, rape, and any other terrible human misadventure since God created everything.

I'm sure different churches teach different calvinistic ideas. Maybe your church is one of them...maybe they're discreet in how doctrine is explained so the church won't become empty....I've l listened to some calvinists explain doctrine, and unless they are purposefully teaching incorrectly, they do not know true calvinism and are teaching something different.

 

[for_his_glory]

The answer to evil is in that of freewill beginning with the angels God created. We can read in Isaiah 14:12-14 that it was Satan's pride that caused his fall that later weakened the nations after the creation of man. Angels have freewill to obey or disobey God just like the angels in Jude 1:6. In all of God's creation of angels and humans they all have the ability to sin.

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32). But we see that many chose not to obey God. Just like man who has freewill to obey God or disobey God.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Adam was instructed by God to not take of the tree of knowledge, but freewill gave him the choice to make his own decision. Jesus, like Adam, was tempted by Satan, but He choose to obey God in His purpose for His Son. We all had a purpose from the time Adam was created to take care of that which God created and saw that it was good, but we all blew it by the choices we make.

 

[GodsGrace]

If evil is just any disobedience of god, isn't saying god created evil like saying the people who invented taxes also invented the possibility of tax evasion? Yes, technically they did. There can't be tax evasion if there are no taxes, and unless it's impossible not to pay your taxes, tax evasion is possible.

So God invented good and somehow evil came of it?
How?

 

[GodsGrace]

The answer to evil is in that of freewill beginning with the angels God created. We can read in Isaiah 14:12-14 that it was Satan's pride that caused his fall that later weakened the nations after the creation of man. Angels have freewill to obey or disobey God just like the angels in Jude 1:6. In all of God's creation of angels and humans they all have the ability to sin.

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32). But we see that many chose not to obey God. Just like man who has freewill to obey God or disobey God.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Adam was instructed by God to not take of the tree of knowledge, but freewill gave him the choice to make his own decision. Jesus, like Adam, was tempted by Satan, but He choose to obey God in His purpose for His Son. We all had a purpose from the time Adam was created to take care of that which God created and saw that it was good, but we all blew it by the choices we make.

Are only our choices the cause of evil?

As to free will and predestination, it's not so difficult to understand.

The famous Augustine taught predestination,,,but not double predestination which is solely reformed.

God predestined all men to be lost.**..we are all born lost.
It's up to us to become saved because it is what God would want...but it's up to us to make THIS choice.

** -Re Adam and Eve as mentioned by you and other posters.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are only our choices the cause of evil?

As to free will and predestination, it's not so difficult to understand.

The famous Augustine taught predestination,,,but not double predestination which is solely reformed.

God predestined all men to be lost.**..we are all born lost.
It's up to us to become saved because it is what God would want...but it's up to us to make THIS choice.

** -Re Adam and Eve as mentioned by you and other posters.

The choices we make is either to accept Christ in whom is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, or to reject Him as there is only redemption through Him. There is none of us that are without sin.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

This is where evil begins.

 

[jasonc]

How do I misunderstand calvinism?
The reformed believe that God is sovereign and nothing else is to be considered...even free will is absent because there's a fear this would take away God's sovereignty. A rather silly notion, I must say, since if ANYTHING could take away God's sovereignty --- then what lowly sovereign God we would have! We have free will because God FEARS NOTHING because His sovereignty cannot be taken away from Him.

Also, if God is the author of all, then surely evil would be one of these creations. Including murder, rape, and any other terrible human misadventure since God created everything.

I'm sure different churches teach different calvinistic ideas. Maybe your church is one of them...maybe they're discreet in how doctrine is explained so the church won't become empty....I've l listened to some calvinists explain doctrine, and unless they are purposefully teaching incorrectly, they do not know true calvinism and are teaching something different.

Yes,quite off .

It helps to ask and read .

One is this God so,weak he can't foresee your choice before you are born and allow you do choice he'll?and not,bother with you and blind you,slowly ?

Does he worry that you will not act as foreseen?

Armiminism has in,some positions put God that low.seen it here.

Free will is often implied that by anti Calvinist as choosing to do what I want.Calvinism is your choice is limited as its based on your nature to sin ,not actual fully able to avoid sin withiit divine providence

Its no,will that's hypercalvinism,why witness ,draw men to Jesus when God says we ought to tell?
Do you really believe outside of God we have the will with power to stop hatred,thieving ,sexual sins,loose weight ,etc?

Another example is the idea of freedom in the u.s.or any nation.

I can insult a co-worker with slurs,and not face some consequences?I can speed down the road and not one day cause a wreck,get a ticket?

If the answer is no,then your will to do those things is limited .God does this .

I'm not even a Calvinist,nor do i buy eternal security but no Calvinist has said I praise God because he turned me into a zombie that must love Jesus.
We all have that bend to do evil more then follow Jesus if we are honest .

 

[GodsGrace]

The choices we make is either to accept Christ in whom is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, or to reject Him as there is only redemption through Him. There is none of us that are without sin.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

This is where evil begins.

I'll have to disagree that this is where evil begins.
Where did Pride come into our history?
It must have already been there when it was chosen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes,quite off .

It helps to ask and read .

One is this God so,weak he can't foresee your choice before you are born and allow you do choice he'll?and not,bother with you and blind you,slowly ?

Does he worry that you will not act as foreseen?

I do believe that God knows what action we will take before we take it. This knowing does not CAUSE us to take our free will action.

Armiminism has in,some positions put God that low.seen it here.

HOW could God ever be put in a lowly position? I haven't seen it here, but I don't read each and every post either.

Free will is often implied that by anti Calvinist as choosing to do what I want.Calvinism is your choice is limited as its based on your nature to sin ,not actual fully able to avoid sin withiit divine providence

As I understand calvinism, or reformed belief, it is compatible free will that is accepted by them. This means that even AFTER being born again, it is still God that makes every choice for us. This is because they believe in predestination and that means that God pre-determines every action we take.

Its no,will that's hypercalvinism,why witness ,draw men to Jesus when God says we ought to tell?
Do you really believe outside of God we have the will with power to stop hatred,thieving ,sexual sins,loose weight ,etc?

Actually Jason, yes, I DO believe that we could be moral creatures even outside of God. Do you not know ANY moral persons that are also atheist? Do all atheists hate everyone, steal when the opportunity presents itself, and are they all fat??!

I believe a person could be moral and be an unbeliever...he just wouldn't be a moral and saved person. And I DO believe that our transformation is with the help of the Holy Spirit and this makes being moral much easier for sure.

Another example is the idea of freedom in the u.s.or any nation.

I can insult a co-worker with slurs,and not face some consequences?I can speed down the road and not one day cause a wreck,get a ticket?

If the answer is no,then your will to do those things is limited .God does this .

This is not the freedom I'm speaking of. BTW, I DO NOT believe we are a free people,,,and by WE I mean any population.

I'm not even a Calvinist,nor do i buy eternal security but no Calvinist has said I praise God because he turned me into a zombie that must love Jesus.
We all have that bend to do evil more then follow Jesus if we are honest .

I thought you said you were reformed in your previous post.
As to zombies...I never thought the reformed were zombies...but I do believe they are puppets in God's hands --- if their beliefs were to be true.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are only our choices the cause of evil?

As to free will and predestination, it's not so difficult to understand.

The famous Augustine taught predestination,,,but not double predestination which is solely reformed.

God predestined all men to be lost.**..we are all born lost.
It's up to us to become saved because it is what God would want...but it's up to us to make THIS choice.

** -Re Adam and Eve as mentioned by you and other posters.

God did not predestine the man, which individuals would be saved or lost, as because of freewill choice He predestined the plan how men would be saved, Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17. Angels made their choice to serve God or not serve God before the creation of man. This is why Satan was cast out of the garden for the choice of pride he made in being selfish wanting all that was God's and now roams between heaven and earth seeking in whom he can devour as many fall to his temptations.

 

[GodsGrace]

God did not predestine the man, which individuals would be saved or lost, as because of freewill choice He predestined the plan how men would be saved, Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17. Angels made their choice to serve God or not serve God before the creation of man. This is why Satan was cast out of the garden for the choice of pride he made in being selfish wanting all that was God's and now roams between heaven and earth seeking in whom he can devour as many fall to his temptations.

Yes FHG,,,this is not what I'm talking about.
I'm discussing HOW evil came about at the very beginning of time.

That's what this thread is. On another forum, a few years ago, this topic came up and it went on for pages and pages because the O.P. would not accept any answer because of the fact that we all came to the conclusion that there is none. I have actually stopped thinking about this seriously for many, many years...but it's still fun when it comes up.

Let's put it this way: Evil entered into MAN in the garden when Original Sin was released at the time that A and E ate of the fruit.
AFTER they ate of the fruit of the knowledge...they became aware of evil and were ashamed, sorry, etc.

But O.S. came into being AFTER they ate...so WHAT caused them to eat of the fruit if O.S. was not in them yet?

It's quite a conundrum if you think about it.

 

[jasonc]

I do believe that God knows what action we will take before we take it. This knowing does not CAUSE us to take our free will action.



HOW could God ever be put in a lowly position? I haven't seen it here, but I don't read each and every post either.


As I understand calvinism, or reformed belief, it is compatible free will that is accepted by them. This means that even AFTER being born again, it is still God that makes every choice for us. This is because they believe in predestination and that means that God pre-determines every action we take.


Actually Jason, yes, I DO believe that we could be moral creatures even outside of God. Do you not know ANY moral persons that are also atheist? Do all atheists hate everyone, steal when the opportunity presents itself, and are they all fat??!

I believe a person could be moral and be an unbeliever...he just wouldn't be a moral and saved person. And I DO believe that our transformation is with the help of the Holy Spirit and this makes being moral much easier for sure.


This is not the freedom I'm speaking of. BTW, I DO NOT believe we are a free people,,,and by WE I mean any population.


I thought you said you were reformed in your previous post.
As to zombies...I never thought the reformed were zombies...but I do believe they are puppets in God's hands --- if their beliefs were to be true.

You misunderstand freewill by far.

god ordained the righteous steps ,or do really think,that you can out think ,make God wonder what path you will take that your in control of health ,a job ,how many kids you will have ,God ultimately is,trust me having been to war its s miraecle I didn't die .

Do you really think that somehow your physical abilities given by God are just cause you deserved them,and demanded them and he was oblidged to yield to little ole you ?

Do you really think,that the tiny nations of now and then rise to power and fall because of mans power when the bible says I raise men up ,nations too?

Im in a bad spot beyond my control .it may be in a year no longer I shall have a father in law,possible a mother in law.in the past two years jobs I had were taken,not even my choice ,forced to retire from the military and have suffered financially since.

Despite trump,What job pays like they say.its in,Gods control some of my problems can be lain on me.

No i dont,we are created in Gods image .if an atheist is moral its becAuse God made us .we didny exactly loose the ability to be good but .

There is none righteous,no,not one.

A sinner didn't make himself ,God did .no such thing as a self made man.

 

[GodsGrace]

You misunderstand freewill by far.

god ordained the righteous steps ,or do really think,that you can out think ,make God wonder what path you will take that your in control of health ,a job ,how many kids you will have ,God ultimately is,trust me having been to war its s miraecle I didn't die .

Do you really think that somehow your physical abilities given by God are just cause you deserved them,and demanded them and he was oblidged to yield to little ole you ?

Do you really think,that the tiny nations of now and then rise to power and fall because of mans power when the bible says I raise men up ,nations too?

Im in a bad spot beyond my control .it may be in a year no longer I shall have a father in law,possible a mother in law.in the past two years jobs I had were taken,not even my choice ,forced to retire from the military and have suffered financially since.

Despite trump,What job pays like they say.its in,Gods control some of my problems can be lain on me.

No i dont,we are created in Gods image .if an atheist is moral its becAuse God made us .we didny exactly loose the ability to be good but .

There is none righteous,no,not one.

A sinner didn't make himself ,God did .no such thing as a self made man.

Hmmm. I'm sorry Jason,,,I don't think you understood my post to you because the replies don't jive with what I was saying.

What do you think I mean by "free will"?

Free will means moral choices that we make. It means we make them freely without being forced by anyone or anything. If we're forced..then it's not free.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'll have to disagree that this is where evil begins.
Where did Pride come into our history?
It must have already been there when it was chosen.

Let me ask you a question. Who was the first one to have been found prideful? Clue, it wasn't man. Who caused man to be tempted? Who was it that tried to tempt Christ, just as Eve was tempted in the garden? Did evil it just manifest from thin air?

 

[jasonc]

Hmmm. I'm sorry Jason,,,I don't think you understood my post to you because the replies don't jive with what I was saying.

What do you think I mean by "free will"?

Free will means moral choices that we make. It means we make them freely without being forced by anyone or anything. If we're forced..then it's not free.

Where does Calvin say God forces anyone to repent ?

Said two weeks by the Calvinist pastor ,

Isn't it amazing that God judged the amorites for 400 years and in the time of Joshua judges them ?He also mentioned God not wanting any to perish and is long suffering ,I even said what you say to me ,and the pastor said then you misunderstand Calvin .

My,pastor is a five pointer as it required to be one in the leadership but its not a salvinical issue.I read up on the pcusa as I asked the pastor where I can find the doctrinal statements .so he pointed me to,the Westminster confession .

He also went into how we are called to be a witness.I,have never heard a Calvinist say God makes one by force choice him.its he touches your heart with irrestable grace and you seing the truth believe .

That's not some barbaric notion of God overdoing my will to deny Him,by force .that's how they see it .
Funny, Funny,many non Calvinist will argue with atheists on this and tell them they truly didn't repent.I have heard many a pastors preach that way and deny the five points.

 

[jasonc]

My issue with Calvin is that the idea and warnings against falling away are clear ,those wouldn't be if it wasn't possible .