NO HELL?

[Elijah674]

One from another site claim's NO HELL! Here is some of my reply...
__________

texascowgirl283 wrote:

People disagree with me because they don't understand becuaes they were never taught truth by their shepherds/preachers who lead them astray.
_________

Believe you?? No, CHRIST taught that the lost would be CONSUMED, ETERNALLY LOST, and be BLOTTED FROM EXISTENCE by Fire.

S.&.G. are an example. Mal. 4:1-4 finds ASHES & ONLY SMOKE LEFT! as Abe did the next day of S.& G. and like cities remains.

Obad. 1:16 even finds 'some' ones who had once been seen as the Rom. 8:1 NO CONDEMNATION who would just not be LED ANY FURTHER as documented REQUIRED in verse 14. Heb. 6:1-6 finds these ones REJECTED by their own free choice! And in Hosea 4:6 you can see why so.

God requires [[[MATURITY!]]] so sin will be CONSUMED OUT OF THE UNIVERSE ONLY ONCE & FOR ALL TIME! Nah. 1:9.

And all of this Rev. 17:1-5 false stuff of satans is proving these ones & satans lordship false & very soon now will be ETERNALLY GONE!

And the last of Earths warfare between Christ & satan (his ones) will be the FINAL TESTING of the mark of the Ceasar Beast & the professed church. 666 This will be the cost to seperate the real Christian from the fake ones. 1 Peter 4:17 has this testing only for the ones who had not had the opportunity to mature as I see it, for they are already the UNITED in false doctrine & will make up the persecuting power of satan. (USA Goverment & Supreme Court)

It will be a death sentence of forced false 'sun' worship for the saved ones only. Rev. 12:17 Just TWO GROUPS in this UNITY of Obedience to Christ or to Church/Beast Government of satan. (see Dan. 7 + Matt. 6:24)

Matt. 6:24 even finds most on these forums all UNITED behind satan as we speak! UNITED IN satan's TRASH is still UNITED BEHIND satan. FORCE IS NEXT! And Rom. 13 will be their EXECUTION UNITED CRY!

 

[Classik]

People don't like the 'hell' thing, especially the 'fire' issue. People here are ready to put you on ignore list if you tell them hellfire is real.
(I pray that God opens my eyes).

 

[Blev]

All I have to say about that is those who don't believe there is a hell will believe it when they get there
:shocked

 

[chakham]

Ok, so according to The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: hell is the the abode of condemned souls and devils a the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by some dude with a pitchfork called Satan, a state of separation of God, a place of evil, eternal misery, discord or destruction, torment, and anguish.

Now I could say find that AHC Dictionary description in Tanakh. But I will save you the time and tell you that description cannot be found. In fact you will not find the word hell in any of the hebrew manuscripts. However one will find Sheol.

Sheol according to Tanakh: "it is silent in sheol"; "the dead are in sheol"; "souls are redeemed from sheol"; "there is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom in sheol";"darkness, corruption, worms, rest in dust"; "down to sheol is death and up from sheol is to make alive", "a change must come to live again"; "no thanks in sheol"; "no praise in sheol" (not even from the righteous who are there); "YHVH will ransome souls from sheol"; "the dead are in sheol"

Oh and get this how can one be separated from God when "God is in sheol" (Psalm 139:8)

The christian/pagan idea of eternal torture and anguish is false teaching too as it is written God will destroy sheol.

Dont confuse the fire which came down and consumed Sodom as your idea of hell. Guys do something besides swallow the pill your college educated masters of divinty tell you and start reading Gods word from page one where it starts out "in the beginning God created..." instead of making up stuff up as you go along.

 

[Elijah674]

At the End of the 1000 years the seperated ALL DEAD Wicked will have their resurection to die their SECOND DEATH [BY FIRE!] (hells fire) and be 'GONE FOR ETERNITY!' Obad. 1:15

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is [[after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders]],
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

And who cares what word man was Inspired to use to describe what makes the old evil world ashes, and blotted it and them out of existence, it is still their hell???

 

[chakham]

Who cares? Well, I do. I read faith comes by hearing the word of God not by making it up as you go along orwarm and fuzzy feelings. You are teaching something I cannot find in Gods word and when I call you on it you just shrug it off, as who cares? To each his own definition how very politically correct.

This idea the wicked dead are to be tormented in hell forever, ruled over by a horned devil god with a pitchfork and the good go to heaven is I think a false teaching. it origins are pagan, its akin Zoroastrianism. King Cyrus was chastised by YHVH for thinking that way.

From what Ive READ the dead, both the wicked and the righteous, are asleep in sheol, one day they shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

However I have been thinking, yet still very open to others ideas on the subject, that the outright rebellious, those who deny their King's commandments and do what is pleasing in their eyes are consumed by His fire. He has spread out His hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; Those people who provoke Him to anger continually to His face; who sacrifices in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; Who sit on the graves, and spend the night in vaults, who eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their utensils; Who say, Stand by yourself, come not near to me; for I am holier than you. This is a rebellious people, lying children, children who will not hear the Torah of Yehovah.

Sounds exactley like the religion I recently left.

Peace and may Yehovah bless you.

 

[Elijah674]

Who cares? Well, I do. I read faith comes by hearing the word of God not by making it up as you go along. You teach something I cannot find in Gods word and when I call you on it you just shrug it off, as who cares? So you are saying to each his own definition? How very politically correct of you.

This idea the wicked dead are being tormented in hell forever ruled over by a devil god and the good go to heaven is a false teaching! it origins are pagan, its akin Zoroastrianism. King Cyrus was chastised by YHVH for thinking as you do.

From what Ive READ the dead, both the wicked and the righteous, are asleep in sheol, one day they shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

However I have been thinking, yet still very open to others ideas on the subject, that the outright rebellious those who deny their King's commandments and do what is pleasing in their eyes are consumed by His fire. He has spread out His hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; Those people who provoke Him to anger continually to His face; who sacrifices in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; Who sit on the graves, and spend the night in vaults, who eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their utensils; Who say, Stand by yourself, come not near to me; for I am holier than you. This is a rebellious people, lying children, children who will not hear the Torah of Yehovah..

Sounds exactley like the religion I recently left.

Peace and may Yehovah bless you.

I am saying that the Bible IS FULL OF INSPIRED TESTIMONY by Godly People using their own pen in describing what they were shown. That is why we have 4 of what are called Gospels that are not exactly alike in the [[WORDS]] used. (yet the meaning is put there by the pennman for 'his testimony' description)

Unless one thinks that the Holy Spirit has Inspired some words such as of piss or bastards? I do not. And 'one' or two words do not make the complete Bible TESTIMONY. Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 and even we are told what to do with these words of doctrine as seen in Isa. 28 if one can handle that?

[9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
____

The Forum might liken it like putting a puzzel together after getting all of the words (or pieces) for the final picture.

And that will be Obad. 1:16 hell!

--Elijah

PS: I am a firm believer in Titus 3:9-11 regardless of if it be me or another. So I will just leave this with you and your remarks about my other posting of shurging it off!

 

[Pizzaguy]

All I have to say about that is those who don't believe there is a hell will believe it when they get there
:shocked

So if someone does not believe in hell, then they go there? Does this apply to a confessing follower of Christ who does not believe in hell or just an unbeliever?

Your post is vague.

 

[Pizzaguy]

At the End of the 1000 years the seperated ALL DEAD Wicked will have their resurection to die their SECOND DEATH [BY FIRE!] (hells fire) and be 'GONE FOR ETERNITY!' Obad. 1:15

Sounds like what I believe - the wicked (or lost) will be zapped out of existence.

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is [[after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders]],
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

And who cares what word man was Inspired to use to describe what makes the old evil world ashes, and blotted it and them out of existence, it is still their hell???

I see nothing there that contradicts the idea that the lost are "zapped out of existence" (my way of wording it).

The Bible seems to imply eternal suffering at times, and at other times, it says, "The wages of sin are death" and "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ", which implies to me that the saved exist forever and the lost do not.


Anyway, perhaps we should live so as to exist with God anyway, then such discussions do not concern us. ;) There has to be a reason God left the question there, for us to question!

 

[Elijah674]

Ok, so according to The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: hell is the the abode of condemned souls and devils a the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by some dude with a pitchfork called Satan, a state of separation of God, a place of evil, eternal misery, discord or destruction, torment, and anguish.

Now I could say find that AHC Dictionary description in Tanakh. But I will save you the time and tell you that description cannot be found. In fact you will not find the word hell in any of the hebrew manuscripts. However one will find Sheol.

Sheol according to Tanakh: "it is silent in sheol"; "the dead are in sheol"; "souls are redeemed from sheol"; "there is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom in sheol";"darkness, corruption, worms, rest in dust"; "down to sheol is death and up from sheol is to make alive", "a change must come to live again"; "no thanks in sheol"; "no praise in sheol" (not even from the righteous who are there); "YHVH will ransome souls from sheol"; "the dead are in sheol"

Oh and get this how can one be separated from God when "God is in sheol" (Psalm 139:8)

The christian/pagan idea of eternal torture and anguish is false teaching too as it is written God will destroy sheol.

Dont confuse the fire which came down and consumed Sodom as your idea of hell. Guys do something besides swallow the pill your college educated masters of divinty tell you and start reading Gods word from page one where it starts out "in the beginning God created..." instead of making up stuff up as you go along.

FORUM:
The above says.. 'Dont confuse the fire which came down and consumed Sodom as your idea of hell.' ???? Why not believe & not do as this accuse's me of being confused?

And just an one word study?? What do you see in Rev. 12 with many [words] (names) for only one body?? Surely 'i' needed a study done by me on every name being offered up there.

And Sodom?? and Hell?? Jude says it this way in his 'TESTIMONY' for how he saw the two...

[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

And 2 Peter 2 talks of ashes that come from what? FIRE.
[6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
--Elijah

 

[Pard]

When I hear hell I see a place of pain, torment, fire, emptiness (from God), and eternity.

It's interesting that sheol is brought up because sheol (or hades in greek, as they mean the same thing, which is a place for the dead to go) is very much real. It's a place of rest for all souls. For anyone who has ever gone to court, sheol is like that door in the back of the courtroom where the bad guys come out of when they are arraigned/tried. They come out of their place of holding (usually a series of small cells) to stand before the judge (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol is the same place. But the righteous, the saved, they shall be the ones sitting in that courtroom, but not in front of the bar, but behind the gate in the benches, watching as judgment is brought against the sinners, because the righteous do not go to sheol, but to God (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), because those in Christ do not die, so they cannot go to sheol, for that is a place of the dead.

The Old Testament does not speak much of life after this worldly one for the unsaved. I don't know why it doesn't speak of gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) to great lengths, but it doesn't except to say that it is a wicked place full of wicked deeds (like burning children to Ba'al). And later in Isaiah it speaks of it, though calls it Topeth (Topeth is the temple that resides in the Valley of Hinnom) by saying it is a place that the Assyrian army shall burn and where the worms will never die.

And, though I do not believe it contains much, if any Truth (being that the Word of God, as much was written post-Christ) the Talmud also speaks of this place as a wicked place where the dead shall burn forever.

And gehenna in the New Testament is a place of wicked people and of burning and pain and torment, just as it is in the Old Testament. In the New Testament it has an added meaning, because that Valley of Hinnom becomes a place that people take their garbage and burn it. So it is a stinking, fiery, pit of refuse.

Some scripture to reinforce the everlasting nature of gehenna...

Revelation 20:7-15

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth —Gog and Magog —and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Revelation 14:10,11

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.â€​

Matthew 25:41-46

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.â€​

Isaiah 30:33

Topheth—the place of burning—
has long been ready for the Assyrian king;
the pyre is piled high with wood.
The breath of the Lord, like fire from a volcano,
will set it ablaze.​

(Just so you understand that Topeth is the place the Assyrians are going, and it is a place of fire.

Isaiah 66:24

And as they go out, they will see
the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.â€​

And to show you this is the truth of the above scripture from Isaiah let's see Jesus quoting it, shall we?

Mark 47-49

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’​

 

[Elijah674]

When I hear hell I see a place of pain, torment, fire, emptiness (from God), and eternity.

It's interesting that sheol is brought up because sheol (or hades in greek, as they mean the same thing, which is a place for the dead to go) is very much real. It's a place of rest for all souls. For anyone who has ever gone to court, sheol is like that door in the back of the courtroom where the bad guys come out of when they are arraigned/tried. They come out of their place of holding (usually a series of small cells) to stand before the judge (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol is the same place. But the righteous, the saved, they shall be the ones sitting in that courtroom, but not in front of the bar, but behind the gate in the benches, watching as judgment is brought against the sinners, because the righteous do not go to sheol, but to God (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), because those in Christ do not die, so they cannot go to sheol, for that is a place of the dead.

The Old Testament does not speak much of life after this worldly one for the unsaved. I don't know why it doesn't speak of gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) to great lengths, but it doesn't except to say that it is a wicked place full of wicked deeds (like burning children to Ba'al). And later in Isaiah it speaks of it, though calls it Topeth (Topeth is the temple that resides in the Valley of Hinnom) by saying it is a place that the Assyrian army shall burn and where the worms will never die.

And, though I do not believe it contains much, if any Truth (being that the Word of God, as much was written post-Christ) the Talmud also speaks of this place as a wicked place where the dead shall burn forever.

And gehenna in the New Testament is a place of wicked people and of burning and pain and torment, just as it is in the Old Testament. In the New Testament it has an added meaning, because that Valley of Hinnom becomes a place that people take their garbage and burn it. So it is a stinking, fiery, pit of refuse.

Some scripture to reinforce the everlasting nature of gehenna...

Revelation 20:7-15

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth —Gog and Magog —and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

Revelation 14:10,11

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.â€
​

Matthew 25:41-46

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.â€
​

Isaiah 30:33

Topheth—the place of burning—
has long been ready for the Assyrian king;
the pyre is piled high with wood.
The breath of the Lord, like fire from a volcano,
will set it ablaze.
​

(Just so you understand that Topeth is the place the Assyrians are going, and it is a place of fire.

Isaiah 66:24

And as they go out, they will see
the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.â€
​

And to show you this is the truth of the above scripture from Isaiah let's see Jesus quoting it, shall we?

Mark 47-49

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
​

OK: So you teach for truth that God did indeed lie & satan told the truth in Gen. 3! And also that even worms have an Immortal 'soul'! (WOW!)

So God LIED AGAIN while documenting twice by Tim. in Inspiration, that only God Himself is Immortal!
And this 'worm' stuff is eternal even before being created in Gen.?????:robot

--Elijah

 

[Pard]

OK: So you teach for truth that God did indeed lie & satan told the truth in Gen. 3! And also that even worms have an Immortal 'soul'! (WOW!)

So God LIED AGAIN while documenting twice by Tim. in Inspiration, that only God Himself is Immortal!
And this 'worm' stuff is eternal even before being created in Gen.?????:robot

--Elijah

Sometimes I just don't get you Elijah. A guy comes to your aid and defends your scripturally sound statement and yet you insist on attacking him?

Seriously, I question your sanity at times my brother. Of course worms don't live forever, it's a metaphor for eternal damnation. Go open your Bible, it's right there in the same exact wording. I don't alter the word of God, I'll leave that to the heathens. It's a metaphor for eternal suffering. And I don't know what "lies" you speak of because you are just ever so vague!

If you are gonna attack me then be very specific because I will not stand for some casual bat of the hand. You best be ready to defend yourself with specific examples of where I lie and very specific examples out of the Bible because truly there is not a lie in that entire post (except perhaps the bit about the Talmud, but I did preface that by stating I don't agree with it in any shape or form and even that isn't really a lie but just an ill used example. I felt that the guy above who was attacking YOU (and I came to your defense!!!) would perhaps listen to the writings of the guys who study the Tanakh because for some misguided reason people think that the guys who totally forsook the Lord know more about the Old Testament than the guys who are walking with Him daily...).

 

[Elijah674]

Sometimes I just don't get you Elijah. A guy comes to your aid and defends your scripturally sound statement and yet you insist on attacking him?

Seriously, I question your sanity at times my brother. Of course worms don't live forever, it's a metaphor for eternal damnation. Go open your Bible, it's right there in the same exact wording. I don't alter the word of God, I'll leave that to the heathens. It's a metaphor for eternal suffering. And I don't know what "lies" you speak of because you are just ever so vague!

If you are gonna attack me then be very specific because I will not stand for some casual bat of the hand. You best be ready to defend yourself with specific examples of where I lie and very specific examples out of the Bible because truly there is not a lie in that entire post (except perhaps the bit about the Talmud, but I did preface that by stating I don't agree with it in any shape or form and even that isn't really a lie but just an ill used example. I felt that the guy above who was attacking YOU (and I came to your defense!!!) would perhaps listen to the writings of the guys who study the Tanakh because for some misguided reason people think that the guys who totally forsook the Lord know more about the Old Testament than the guys who are walking with Him daily...).

Whatever! You say.. ' (except perhaps the bit about the Talmud, but I did preface that by stating I don't agree with it in any shape or form and even that isn't really a lie but just an ill used example...'

I study the Bible not postings. Do they agree with my limited knowledge? Meaning that the post needs to be straight up with only scripture. No Jer. 17:5 stuff. The post person means little from this end. In other words, forget a defense for me & lets just stick to the subject, OK? Matt. 10:25 had me unstanding this verse years ago.

--Elijah

 

[Pard]

All I want to know is what the heck you think I said that is a lie. It's a very bold and strong statement to call a man a liar and it is not something you should do lightly and if you do do it you need to back it up. It's only right that you tell me why I am being called a liar. Especially when i am trying to back you up because I am in agreement with you!

Unless you disagree with my inclusion of the Talmud bit, for which I must say I only did it because the above poster seemed to be one of those people who thinks the Jews are holier than thou and should be praised even though they yet deny their Lord! Well if that is the case I included it because even the Jews believe in a hell and brimstone setting for the unsaved! I don't read the Talmud, nor do I know much beyond that it isn't scripture and it is pretty much man made dribble.

Everything else is pure scripture! Sheol is a place of rest for the dead, but we see clearly (through the SCRIPTURE that I posted) that it is not a place for those in Christ. We also see that gehenna is a place of eternal torment for those who are judged to be breakers of the Law and to not have that salvation from Christ. And if you are calling me a liar for that than I must say that you are calling God a liar because I cannot see anything that says against to His word in my post.

Unless you think that by me not posting in a manner that is utterly undecipherable but to the Lord who-knows-all-things, such as many of your posts are then I am some how a liar. To which I'd have to say that 2 Cor. 11:16 would be where you should take your issue too because clearly the manner by which a man speaks for the Lord is not the issue, but the only issue is that man speaks the Word of the Lord, which I assure you I did. This is why I don't find fault with your posts, even though I must read them about ten times to even begin to understand them. I enjoy to read them because they are very much to His Word generally, I must admit sometimes I do have to disagree but usually it is in such small and silly things as to not even matter in the end all be all of the matter.

And if your fault is with the worm bit, seriously, it's a metaphor and you should take it up with God because I literally just quoted His book on that matter, I never said a single thing in reference to worms but what His Word says...

 

[Elijah674]

When I hear hell I see a place of pain, torment, fire, emptiness (from God), and eternity.

It's interesting that sheol is brought up because sheol (or hades in greek, as they mean the same thing, which is a place for the dead to go) is very much real. It's a place of rest for all souls. For anyone who has ever gone to court, sheol is like that door in the back of the courtroom where the bad guys come out of when they are arraigned/tried. They come out of their place of holding (usually a series of small cells) to stand before the judge (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol is the same place. But the righteous, the saved, they shall be the ones sitting in that courtroom, but not in front of the bar, but behind the gate in the benches, watching as judgment is brought against the sinners, because the righteous do not go to sheol, but to God (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), because those in Christ do not die, so they cannot go to sheol, for that is a place of the dead.

The Old Testament does not speak much of life after this worldly one for the unsaved. I don't know why it doesn't speak of gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) to great lengths, but it doesn't except to say that it is a wicked place full of wicked deeds (like burning children to Ba'al). And later in Isaiah it speaks of it, though calls it Topeth (Topeth is the temple that resides in the Valley of Hinnom) by saying it is a place that the Assyrian army shall burn and where the worms will never die.

And, though I do not believe it contains much, if any Truth (being that the Word of God, as much was written post-Christ) the Talmud also speaks of this place as a wicked place where the dead shall burn forever.

And gehenna in the New Testament is a place of wicked people and of burning and pain and torment, just as it is in the Old Testament. In the New Testament it has an added meaning, because that Valley of Hinnom becomes a place that people take their garbage and burn it. So it is a stinking, fiery, pit of refuse.

Some scripture to reinforce the everlasting nature of gehenna...

Revelation 20:7-15

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth —Gog and Magog —and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

Revelation 14:10,11

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.â€
​

Matthew 25:41-46

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.â€
​

Isaiah 30:33

Topheth—the place of burning—
has long been ready for the Assyrian king;
the pyre is piled high with wood.
The breath of the Lord, like fire from a volcano,
will set it ablaze.
​

(Just so you understand that Topeth is the place the Assyrians are going, and it is a place of fire.

Isaiah 66:24

And as they go out, they will see
the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.â€
​

And to show you this is the truth of the above scripture from Isaiah let's see Jesus quoting it, shall we?

Mark 47-49

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
​

Is that not your post? with the bottom three lines underlined by you??? Meaning what???
And this is my posting...

OK: So you teach for truth that God did indeed lie & satan told the truth in Gen. 3! And also that even worms have an Immortal 'soul'! (WOW!)

So God LIED AGAIN while documenting twice by Tim. in Inspiration, that only God Himself is Immortal!
And this 'worm' stuff is eternal even before being created in Gen.?????:robot

--Elijah
_____


OK: me again:
What was said & I stick to that, is that you teach for truth that God did indeed lie and satan told the truth in Gen. 3.
And you being the liar?? who knows what your spiritual growth is?? Surely not me. And I do not know what is in your mind. But you do not read well.

It is God that said in Gen. 3
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And immortal worms??? But again as always, Titus 3:9-11 applies to me as well as all. Have it your way whatever that way is???? The thread is one that I started so will just as always, reply to the material posted. You can have the last loving words.

--Elijah

 

[Pard]

Is that not your post? with the bottom three lines underlined by you??? Meaning what???

Mhm, my post. Yes I did underline the words of Jesus, and so did you. You also bolden His words and color His words, so if anyone is guilty of the sin of marring His words with non-literary edits it is you!

Go read the scripture I quoted because all I did was quote scripture, and in that scripture quote I only quoted what Jesus said and He in turn only quoted what Isaiah said before Him, and Isaiah only said that which the Lord gave to his tongue to speak. So you are telling me that the Lord calls Himself a liar and declares satan is the truth bearer?

I do not know your spiritual growth, for it is not my place to know such things, nor would I wish to know such things as I am of a prideful heart and would use such knowledge for sinful gains. Well I may not know such things but the Lord does and truly, anyone who says that the Lord is a liar, as you yourself has said is a very lowly man on that spiritual grape vine.

I know that you do not mean it as such but it comes as such when I give clear scriptural reference and then you say that it is my own words and that I am calling the Lord a liar! Go read Mark 9:47-49 (which I do see I neglected to add a chapter to which i am very sorry and shall go edit it quickly) and you will see that Jesus truly says these things. Now if you have a newer Bible then you may find it harder to get at this reference as the newer the Bible the more inclined the translators are to err from God's word and in this case exempt it entirely, but go to any older translation and you will see this in the 47th verse but also the 44 or 45th verse (I forget which). And again, it is just but a quote of Jesus and He but quoted Isaiah when Isaiah said the same thing in 66:24!!!

And though that verse in Titus has a great depth of wisdom to it, I am telling you my friend that the wrong person is using that scripture, for it is I who ought to be using it to rebuke your error. And though they have not posted here other brothers in Christ have made it clear to me that you are indeed wrongly founded in your claim against me.

 

[Stormcrow]

To understand "hell", you have to understand both the Hebrew and Greek concepts of it.

First of all, the Hebrew Sheol (Greek: Hades) was seen as a place where the souls of the just and unjust resided until judgment. It was not specifically a place for punishment, rather a holding place (this is where Catholics also get the idea of Purgatory.)

Gehenna (Tartarus in the Greek), rather, was a place of torment being a small partitioned section of Sheol/Hades.

This distinction is important to understand: no one ever rose to life from the Lake of Fire (Gehenna/Tartarus) as it is a place of eternal torment and suffering which was reserved for the devil and his angels. (Tartarus was created to hold the vanquished Titans of Greek mythology.)

The souls of those who were led captive by Christ out of "captivity" and appeared in Jerusalem after His resurrection (Matt. 27:52) were all raised from Sheol/Hades. This part of the "underworld" - I firmly believe the Bible shows - has been evacuated by Christ. It is empty, never to be used again.

What's left for those judged upon death is either eternal union with Christ in heaven, or eternal separation from Him in the Lake of Fire.

The problem is that the Christian Bible only uses a single word "hell" to describe both Sheol/(Hades) and Gehenna/(Tartarus).

So when the question is asked, "Is there a 'hell?'", the answer is yes or no depending on whether you're describing Sheol (Hades) or Gehenna (Tartarus.)

 

[stovebolts]

Gehenna (Tartarus in the Greek), rather, was a place of torment being a small partitioned section of Sheol/Hades.

Correction. Gehenna is not related to the greek place Tartarus and holds a different inference than Sheol. Tartarus is related to the greek god Hades. Tartarus is within the deepest realms of Hades abode, and it is the place in greek mythology where the most evil reside in chains and torment. In addition, Hades is the brother of Zues, and Hades abode is in the underworld. Gehenna, on the other hand has it's own, and seperate story to tell and can be found in the OT and it has a very rich background. I'll not give it away though.. Seek and you will find!

I would agree that the ideologies between Sheol and Hades are similar, though Hades infers an overbearning overlord while God is present in Sheol. With that, Gehenna is a place of suffering and torment, as is Tartarus so in that way, the two are similar in ideologies.

 

[Elijah674]

(anothers thoughts --Elijah)

1. Doesn’t the Bible speak of ‘eternal torment’?
______________________________________

ANSWER: No, the phrase ‘eternal torment’ does not appear in the Bible.


2. Then why does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed with unquenchable fire?
______________________________________

ANSWER: Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city ‘to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah’ and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not still burning today.


3. Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive ‘everlasting punishment’?
______________________________________

ANSWER: Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.


4. Can you explain Matthew 10:28 ‘Fear not them which kill body, but are not able to kill the soul’?
______________________________________

ANSWER: The word ‘soul’ has three meanings in the Bible: (1) a living being-Genesis 2:7, (2) the mind- Psalms 139:14, and (3) life-1 Samuel 18:1 which here refers to eternal life that God guarantees all who reach His Kingdom. No one can take this away. The last part of Matthew 10:28 says both soul and body will be destroyed in hell.


5. Matthew 25:41 speaks of ‘everlasting fire’ for the wicked. Does it go out?
_____________________________________

ANSWER: Yes, according to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, (Jude 7), and that fire turned them ‘into ashes’ as a warning to ‘those that after should live ungodly.’ 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

6. Doesn’t the story of Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 teach an eternal hell of torment?
_____________________________________

ANSWER: No, indeed! It is simply a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. A few are as follows: A. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16). B. People in hell can’t talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65:17). C. The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13; John 5:28-29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says. D. Men are rewarded at Christ’s second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11,12). E. The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42). The point of the story is found in verse 31 od Luke 16. Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15)

7. But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented ‘forever’ doesn’t it?
______________________________________

ANSWER: The term ‘for ever’ as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended (look up ‘ever’ in a concordance) It is like the word ‘tall’, which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, ‘for ever’ means ‘three days and nights’. (See Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means ‘ten generations.’ In the case of man, this means ‘as long as he lives’ or ‘until death’. (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalms 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will very according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity that any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

Just part of an AMAZING FACTS Guide No. 11 on who is in charge of hell? It can be gotten free of charge from
AMAZING FACTS
PO BOX 909
ROSEVILLE CA 95678-0909