No Honoring the Holy Spirit in Worship?

[childeye]

What you posted (and I quoted) is true. However, the rest of your post is a logical error called "begging the question" The error in logic happens when one makes a premise (be it true or not [for the sake of argumentation]) and then asks a question that is irrelevant to the premise. When such an argument is exposed, then the entire question is rendered moot.

In this case, your unspoken premise is that "since Christians are to worship both God the Father and Jesus the Son, we are also supposed to worship God, Holy Spirit."

Therefore, your task, (and this is not an attack on your belief system) is to find verses in Scripture that tell Christians (even Jews) to worship Holy Spirit.. I really have not found one verse that comes close to that, so I will be interested if you can find one with that specific command.

Thank you

If I may point out. The poster did not mean to imply that the Holy Spirit seeks to be worshipped. When the poster says,
"but scripture testify the Father's will on how He wants us to honor Him by", the poster is referring to God when applying the word "Him". It was not meant to be referring to the Holy Spirit. The poster has previously apologized for the miscommunication.

 

[By Grace]

The poster did not mean to imply that the Holy Spirit seeks to be worshipped

That is indeed the implication of the title. I say that because the word "honor" as it relates to humanity's capacity to honor either God or Jesus Christ means worship.

When the poster says,
"but scripture testify the Father's will on how He wants us to honor Him by", the poster is referring to God when applying the word "Him". It was not meant to be referring to the Holy Spirit. The poster has previously apologized for the miscommunication.

Then I confess to not reading that part (shame on me!)
Thank you for the clarification

 

[Jim Parker]

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
They are an inseparable Trinity.
To honor One is to honor the Three.
To refuse to honor One is to refuse to honor the Three.
So, quit the hair splitting and honor God.

iakov the fool



By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your life.

 

[Jim Parker]

John 5:41
I receive not honour from men.

"Context" regularly destroys the all too prevalent misuse of scripture commonly known as "proof-texting."
In the VERY SAME CHAPTER....
In the VERY SAME SPEECH....
The VERY SAME JESUS said:
John 5:22-23 (NKJV) For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your life.

 

[By Grace]

To honor One is to honor the Three.
To refuse to honor One is to refuse to honor the Three.

Are you aware that the logical conclusion of your argument comes down to this statement: "We should worship Holy Spirit because He is God."

If that is not true, then please tell me. If it is true, please demonstrate where that is said in Scripture.

I have no problem understanding the sentimental reasons for your position, and my stating that is NOT being snarky. Instead as one who loves systematic theology and logical expression of theological thought, I find it rather dangerous to build a doctrine based on silence. That is a logical impossibility because it is attempting to make a positive (a specific doctrine) from a negative (the absence of any Scripture telling us to worship Holy Spirit.) Quite frankly, I never thought about the worship of Holy Spirit because He is God before this thread came up.

In logic, the only thing that can be proved by silence is silence itself. I do not know WHY the Scriptures are silent on worshiping Holy Spirit; I just know that the Scriptures ARE silent on that issue. Therefore I must trust the Divine knowledge of God in the fact that He did not cause Holy Spirit to include any instructions to any writer of the Bible to worship Holy Spirit. In that I am content, and in that, I take my stand

 

[Douglas Summers]

Are you aware that the logical conclusion of your argument comes down to this statement: "We should worship Holy Spirit because He is God."

If that is not true, then please tell me. If it is true, please demonstrate where that is said in Scripture.

The Holy Spirit is Deity, is addressed as a person and is a divine person. It is not an influence or emanation. the Bible implies personalty. He is called God, He has the attributes of God. He does works only possible of deity (God). The Holy Spirit and the Church forms the body of Christ. There is Scripture for all of these works of God by the Holy Spirit, but it is late for me. (bed time). I will give you proof Scripture tomorrow. But the real proof is Christ in me as a born again believer.(The Holy Spirit)

 

[Jim Parker]

Are you aware that the logical conclusion of your argument comes down to this statement: "We should worship Holy Spirit because He is God."

Yes! The Holy Spirit is God and Christians worship God.

Quite frankly, I never thought about the worship of Holy Spirit because He is God before this thread came up.

And that's just God's quaint little way of saying, "Bugga! Bugga!"

OK, seriously now....
As Christians, we worship God whom we declare to be a Trinity of three hypostases; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Creed of the Church includes the statement, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke through the prophets." (Creed of Nicaea and Constantinople)

That is tenet of the essential faith of Christianity.
It is not uncommon to experience an imbalance in churches where Christology and Ecclesiology are emphasized while Pneumatology is ignored or an imbalance in churches where Pneumatology is so over-emphasized that the others are essentially ignored.

You cannot worship God the Trinity without worshiping each one of the hypostases (persons) of God.
Attempting to worship one and not the other is about as simple as removing the salt from your soup with a spoon.

iakov the fool

 

[iLOVE]

Glory be to the Father
and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost,
as it was in the beginning
is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen, amen.

 

[smaller]

"Context" regularly destroys the all too prevalent misuse of scripture commonly known as "proof-texting."
In the VERY SAME CHAPTER....
In the VERY SAME SPEECH....
The VERY SAME JESUS said:
John 5:22-23 (NKJV) For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


iakov the fool

I generally reject any theological position whereby we "do" anything and God then "owes" us for doing (whatever.) This angle is manipulated by many church sects. They try to make the believers obligated and God in Christ indebted to the people for their actions. I don't believe that can be the case.

God is not "in need" of anything from man.

Romans 11:35
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[By Grace]

The Holy Spirit is Deity, is addressed as a person and is a divine person. It is not an influence or emanation. the Bible implies personalty. He is called God, He has the attributes of God. He does works only possible of deity (God). The Holy Spirit and the Church forms the body of Christ. There is Scripture for all of these works of God by the Holy Spirit, but it is late for me. (bed time). I will give you proof Scripture tomorrow. But the real proof is Christ in me as a born again believer.(The Holy Spirit)

Perhaps because it was your bed time you may have mis-read what I posted, ya think?
I am a Trinitarian, and I have no problem with anything you stated.

 

[By Grace]

You cannot worship God the Trinity without worshiping each one of the hypostases (persons) of God.

I believe that you may be confusing terms, and as a result you may be stating things that are not supported by Scripture in any manner.
"Trinity" is another way of saying "Godhead". Therefore it is accurate to say "Trinity=Godhead"

The Trinity consists of three distinct Divine Persons, all of whom are fully God, co-equal to one another.
Therefore, we can say Jesus Christ=God, Holy Spirit =God and God the Father =God

What we cannot say, as some Oneness people want to say is that all members of the Trinity are the same, but different manifestations. They believe that Jesus Christ is the same as Holy Spirit is the same as God the Father. symbolically, they represent that as Jesus Christ = Holy spirit = God the Father

Nor can we say that the Trinity (or Godhead) is God because it is a "Holy Union" which is greater than the sum of It's parts.

Therefore, I believe that is improper to call the Godhead or Trinity God.

After sleeping on it, I believe the reason that The Bible directs us to praise and worship only God the Father, and Jesus the Son is because Each of them are relational, and have a direct part in our salvation, from the planning of the Ordus Saludus (plan of salvation and reconciliation) to the scope and efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it those things which Each want us to be focused upon.

For one inexplicable reason or another, known only to Him, Holy Spirit does not want worship. It is He who calls us, whom God the Father foreknew meaning election, it is He who seals us, and it is He who gives us spiritual gifts, (and I am speaking of things greater than tongues) so that we are enabled to ddo the God-given desires of our hearts, which were placed into us when God foreknew us.

The only way I can describe this, and not blaspheme Him in any way, is to say that Holy Spirit is a God who resides in Christians only, and is a "behind-the scenes God" because He gives gifts to glorify both God the Father, and Jesus the Son, but not Himself.

That is why blasphemy against Holy spirit is so heinous. It is saying that He gives gifts to Christian men and women so that they can glorify demons, or demonic activity.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Trinity consists of three distinct Divine Persons, all of whom are fully God, co-equal to one another.

Hmmmmmmm...................That sounds a bit more like tritheism than Trinity.
The Trinity is not a union of three, co-equal Gods. It is one God in three persons.

Therefore, I believe that is improper to call the Godhead or Trinity God.

Again, the proper understanding of the Trinity is "One God in three persons." (Hypostases)
That is not the same as the modalism of the "oneness" folk who say God acts in different "offices" as appropriate. (Which leaves them with God praying to Himself and asking Himself to give another one of Himself. 2 [Jhn 14:16])

Therefore, I believe that is improper to call the Godhead or Trinity God.

Then you are in conflict with the ancient teaching of the Church.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I generally reject any theological position whereby we "do" anything and God then "owes" us for doing (whatever.)

Me too.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment about context.
You have answered a question that no one asked.

iakov the fool

 

[By Grace]

Hmmmmmmm...................That sounds a bit more like tritheism than Trinity.

I believe that you will be well-served by a explanation.

by Matt Slick

Tritheism is the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings forming three separate gods. This erring view is often misplaced by the cults for the doctrine of the Trinity which states that there is but one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the trinity is--by definition--monothestic. That is, it is a doctrine that affirms that there is only one God in all the universe. https://carm.org/tritheism​

I believe nothing like that, and your imposition of that upon what I posted is simultaneously an interpolation and an inaccurate extrapolation of what I believe I clearly stated. NO, I am not upset; I am merely making an explanation

Again, the proper understanding of the Trinity is "One God in three persons." (Hypostases)

The term "God IN three persons" s correct. The term "the three Persons is God" is NOT correct. Each Divine Person of the Trinity is fully God; with the adding of Jesus to His Person, having a fully human nature is not being an exception

That is not the same as the modalism of the "oneness" folk who say God acts in different "offices" as appropriate. (Which leaves them with God praying to Himself and asking Himself to give another one of Himself. 2

Agreed

By Grace said: ↑
Therefore, I believe that is improper to call the Godhead or Trinity God.

Then you are in conflict with the ancient teaching of the Church.

Not really. The fact that you have misunderstood me several times, and not understood the historical doctrines of the church speaks to your confusing such an issue.

​

 

[Jim Parker]

The fact that you have misunderstood me several times, and not understood the historical doctrines of the church speaks to your confusing such an issue.

As an Orthodox priest, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the teachings of the early church.
But, our language, by which we attempt to communicate, is prone to misunderstanding.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Perhaps because it was your bed time you may have mis-read what I posted, ya think?
I am a Trinitarian, and I have no problem with anything you stated.

OK, Sorry.

 

[Jim Parker]

The trinity revealed!!!
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/even-st-patrick-struggles-to-explain-the-trinity

 

[By Grace]

As an Orthodox priest, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the teachings of the early church.
But, our language, by which we attempt to communicate, is prone to misunderstanding.

As long as you are touting your c.v. I will say that I am ordained, having an M. Div as well as doing post grad work.

Unfortunately that does nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Having studied the ECFs we know that their works are considered seminal, and not definitive. It is for that reason that Evangelicals can claim the works of Augustine as their own because they are so grace-filled. Likewise, we know that it was not until the work of Anselm that we had an adequate understanding of the Atonement. Before he came along, the ransom to Satan theory was the most prevalent.

However, you need to know that the miscommunication was due to your interpolating things into my statement, which I never stated, nor hinted at. Therefore, this statement about the EFCs is the third one in this thread which is incorrect about me.

So before we go down a road that is unpleasant, I request that instead of making a declarative statement about something that you may not fully understand what I am attempting to communicate, I request that you make a question to seek more answers.

Thank you for doing that.

 

[Jim Parker]

Likewise, we know that it was not until the work of Anselm that we had an adequate understanding of the Atonement.

In the view of the Eastern Church, Anselm was waaaaaay off and sent western theology down a rabbit hole from which it has not recovered.
See: On the Incarnation by Athanasius

 

[By Grace]

In the view of the Eastern Church, Anselm was waaaaaay off and sent western theology down a rabbit hole from which it has not recovered.
See: On the Incarnation by Athanasius

I do not want to risk losing a good discussion to a possible derail, so I will follow my own advice and ask a question, instead: What does Athanasius have to do with worshiping Holy Spirit?. I do not follow.

My mentioning of Anselm was an ancillary incident to reinforce the statement that the ECFs are VERY good, but they are also regarded as more seminal rather than refined. If that led you to champion Athanasius over Anselm (BTW he was Bishop of Canterbury in the 11th century, long after the East West split in the late 400s Therefore I wonder at your comment "sending western theology down a rabbit hole" ) then I regret that.

Therefore if you would please address the worshiping of Holy Spirit, I would appreciate it. I am sure the mods will also appreciate it.