Bible Study Noah's Generations

[stovebolts]

Well, that is for sure how the first generation nephilim came about. If you want further proof, how about the book of Jude? Jude quotes Enoch and 2 Peter backs him up. Even if the Book of Enoch is corrupted in this modern day, even if only the quotes and remarks from Jude are inspired, that is enough for this nephilim origin. This should be enough except for those that don't accept Jude. I see your an upper level here. I see your phrasing as you are depicting me as a simpleton of such. It seems you want to destroy my study not to change my thought, but the sites as a whole. Forgive me if I'm wrong, that is how I see it. I'm not going to loose all my credibility or get posts edited by posting non-canonical sources or things that might be considered conspiracies since the thought is what I have posted isn't enough. I'm not exactly sure you think there ever was giants at all and if God himself as well as angels have been in physical form or only that they weren't from an angel/human union.

Hello King James,

You know, one of the fears of accepting the role of Administrator was the fear that people would respect or fear me only because of my title. I would suggest that to think like that is a worldly thought and I would affirm that also by saying I have less "authority" in this forum than those assigned to moderate it. In short dear brother, I am bound by the same Terms of Service as you, but more importantly, I am held equally accountable to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So please, view me as a fellow brother in Christ who simply enjoys discussing the scriptures. If at any time you feel I am out of line, or any other member of the staff is in violation of the TOS, then you can report the post by clicking on that little triangle on the bottom left corner of each post and the moderator of that forum will look into the issue. In short, as Administrator or Moderators, we are not dictators, rather, we are servants.

Now then, as far as proof, 1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

When we discuss things in the light of showing "proof", then one must be right while the other must be wrong as simple logic dictates. I would like to get out of this mindset if we could and simply discuss openly and honestly the various interpretations of the verses you've posted with the spirit being our guide in the bounds of unity. After all, unity is not uniformity.

Are we able to do that?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

From my studies of Jewish Rabbis on the topic of the Nephilim, the answer is a mixed bag.
Nobody knows for sure how to translate it so everyone simply gives their opinion.

I have questions about them being angels.
Why are they giants?
Are any angels in the Bible who have appeared to people been any bigger than anyone else?
And angels "appear" as people.
Does that mean they can reproduce?

If this is your stand, you need to answer these questions with scripture.

 

[Atonement]

Well, that is for sure how the first generation nephilim came about. If you want further proof, how about the book of Jude? Jude quotes Enoch and 2 Peter backs him up. Even if the Book of Enoch is corrupted in this modern day, even if only the quotes and remarks from Jude are inspired, that is enough for this nephilim origin. This should be enough except for those that don't accept Jude. I see your an upper level here. I see your phrasing as you are depicting me as a simpleton of such. It seems you want to destroy my study not to change my thought, but the sites as a whole. Forgive me if I'm wrong, that is how I see it. I'm not going to loose all my credibility or get posts edited by posting non-canonical sources or things that might be considered conspiracies since the thought is what I have posted isn't enough. I'm not exactly sure you think there ever was giants at all and if God himself as well as angels have been in physical form or only that they weren't from an angel/human union.

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus

King James,

I want you to know that this is a open discussion and therefore I will respect different views and theologies surrounding the Nephilim. I been paying close attention to this thread with great interest. I have much that I would like to add on the subject but I feel it is best that I stay out of this thread because I may have to take action on one's post if it fails to follow the TOS and the Statement of Faith guidelines. If I'm a participant on this thread, it would be easy for one to say (because I hold a different view and that's why I did what I did as a Moderator) - Is that understandable?

I want you to feel free to speak openly, but the staff here at CFnet all agree that we can not allow this topic to begin to breath 'serpent seed' or 'mixed seed' or 'dual seed' etc. Then my hand will be forced to delete threads, edit post and ultimately close the thread as a whole. So before you or anyone post under this thread, may they proof read it before submitting, let's make sure our post(s) are within the TOS guidelines. If you have not read them in awhile (they have been updated recently), please view them here http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=64&a=6

totopic

King James. let me just point this out for your peace of mind, I actually have the same point of view as you do on this subject matter. I have been taught the same as you concerning the Nephilim; I have a question, you said that 2 Peter backs him up.. Who's "him"? And another question, what do you think happened to these "spirits" after the flood?

God Bless
Atonerment

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Atonement, if nobody can answer my questions with scripture, maybe you can.
Appreciated.

 

[King James]

2 Peter is written around Jude in defense of it as it was contested at the time it was written as it is now. The "spirits", there is a thought that they are earthbound since they weren't supposed to be so they had nowhere to go. That they would be evil spirits or demons. What's an unclean spirit vs. an evil spirit? Unclean-nephilim spirit, evil-demon-fallan angel? That only leaves another question as what would their role be in comparison to fallen angels with Satan's gang? I don't know for certain since, how could I? Maybe they have a place in sheol like humans. I don't claim to be an expert or authority on the subject. I continue to study and research. Sometimes I go down a bad road and have to backtrack. Sometimes I can't see the truth at first. Like everyone else.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Does that mean they can reproduce?

I can take a stab at this one, being familiar with the subject.

Scripture is not specific about if Angels can reproduce. People assume they are sexless and can not reproduce, because of the statment in Matthew 22: 30 (and other places, which essentially say the same thing.)

...30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven./(NIV)

The conjecture is that it doesn't say that Angels are sexless, only not given in marriage. That's as close as anyone get to this so far. It could be true, but is ultimately conjecture. On the other hand, there is no scripture saying that Angels can not reproduce either.

One thing I found in the book of Enoch is that he repremands these fallen angels for taking on wives when they were not supposed to and said almost the same thing that Jesus said that they were not to marry (these fallen angels wanted intercession from him).

In other words what I am saying is that Jesus quoted something that Enoch said that they were not to marry. It's not that they can't reproduce, but they were not supposed to.

People who quote Jesus believing they can't reproduce do not know the background of what he was saying. Both Jesus and Enoch stated that they were not to marry or given in marriage. And Enoch stated this to them AFTER they took on human wives!

 

[Maedchen]

Hi everyone,

I just want to chime in with an explanation and contribution, because when I first studied the bible, the Nephilim and the giants were absolutely new for me. But the following summery of biblical reference seemed logical to me.


Are wicked spirits able to take on human form?
In the days of Noah, disobedient angels did take on human form. They actually married, and they fathered children. (Gen. 6:1-4) However, when the Flood came, those angels were forced back into the spirit realm. Regarding them, Jude 6 says: “The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” Not only did God abase them from their former heavenly privileges and consign them to dense darkness regarding Jehovah’s purposes, but the reference to bonds indicates that he has restrained them. From what? Evidently, from taking on physical bodies so they could have relations with women, as they had done before the Flood. The Bible reports that faithful angels, as messengers of God, did materialize in the performance of their duties down until the first century C.E. But following the Flood, those angels that had misused their gifts were deprived of the ability to take on human form.
It is of interest, however, that demons apparently can cause humans to see visions, and what they see may appear to be real. When the Devil tempted Jesus, he evidently made use of such means in order to show Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.”—Matt. 4:8.

Love, Rose

 

[Atonement]

Why are they giants?
Are any angels in the Bible who have appeared to people been any bigger than anyone else?
And angels "appear" as people.
Does that mean they can reproduce?

Hi Atonement, if nobody can answer my questions with scripture, maybe you can.
Appreciated.

Allen as someone who studies the Bible, I'm sure you know as well as I do that these questions are silent-answers in the Bible - therefore it causes much debate concerning this topic.

 

[Maedchen]

Hi again,

the question "Why are they giants" is still in my mind. There was a thread about Nephilim that was moved to the dead threads. We discussed that issue there already, and I already mentioned there a dear man in our days who can clearly be seen as a giant because of his abnormal height:

His name was Robert Wadlow. He suffered from continued growth in adulthood due to hyperplasia of his pituitary gland which results in an abnormally high level of human growth hormone.
Please see the relating site from Wikipedia :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
Robert Pershing Wadlow (February 22, 1918 – July 15, 1940) is the tallest person in history for whom there is irrefutable evidence.

This shows that from scientific view it is certainly possible that people become abnormally tall. Robert Wadlow of course was no Nephilim; I read a lot about him, and he was a beautiful soul.

So here is my new theory about why those Nephilim were giants: the angels to whom Jude 6 refers were disobedient to God, hence the punishment.

In summery, God has always a reason for the things He does not allow. But if angels (who do not appear to be bigger persons than others throughout their appearance in the bible) broke that prohibition, there developed physical malfunction as consequence.

Just another thought. :shades

Love, Rose

 

[King James]

Why does a male lion that breeds with a female tiger create a hybrid that cat weigh up to 1,000 pounds when lions and tigers by themselves only weigh 300-600 pounds? Because the male lion and the female tiger lack the growth inhibitor gene. Not only are these ligers bigger than their parents. They are stronger, faster, and live longer. The important thing is the bible says so. That's enough for me. In Numbers, the sons of Anak, or Anakim made humans look like grasshoppers by comparison. Amos 2:9 Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit from above, and his roots from beneath. In Lebanon, these cedars reach 115 feet tall. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedars_of_God.

 

[King James]

I always look at the specification of in heaven they don't marry which means to me that good ones would not do that. It doesn't mean that no types of angels would have the ability to if they so desired.

To Rose about height, there are many strange bones found all over the world not talked about. I don't want to bring up conspiracy, people don't like it even though Satan is in charge of creating them and there is anger by christians when they are uncovered?... but there is some suppression with many fossils and digs. Just a few articles on giants and cyclops: http://atrueott.wordpress.com/forbidden-archeology/

There are also fleshy dinosaur bodies that turn up from time to time. Most to all of the websites I knew of are shut down now. Most of the giant skeleton information on the internet was covered up with the creation of hundreds of fake sites and pictures to hide the real ones. This was also the same method to cover up genuine foot imprint fossils of 20+ inch human appearance foot prints along side dinosaur foot prints dated to the same age.

 

[Maedchen]

I always look at the specification of in heaven they don't marry which means to me that good ones would not do that. It doesn't mean that no types of angels would have the ability to if they so desired.

To Rose about height, there are many strange bones found all over the world not talked about. I don't want to bring up conspiracy, people don't like it even though Satan is in charge of creating them and there is anger by christians when they are uncovered?... but there is some suppression with many fossils and digs. Just a few articles on giants and cyclops: http://atrueott.wordpress.com/forbidden-archeology/

There are also fleshy dinosaur bodies that turn up from time to time. Most to all of the websites I knew of are shut down now. Most of the giant skeleton information on the internet was covered up with the creation of hundreds of fake sites and pictures to hide the real ones. This was also the same method to cover up genuine foot imprint fossils of 20+ inch human appearance foot prints along side dinosaur foot prints dated to the same age.

Dear King James,

Those are really interesting facts, also the lion/tiger observations.
I understand your interest in such issues.

You know, dear brother, the moderators already closed that other Nephilim-thread. But that has a good reason, because even friendly people can become quite heated at this 'mixed seed' theme. (Two very dear moderators told me that, and I begin to understand!)
So as you see that my post above was also edited, I can assure you that they really try to act for the sake of peace.
Just as you also did, dear brother, when you changed your picture about which I complained. Thank you so much again. :p

I think that you are not so tall as a Nephilim; your peacefulness shows that.

May God guide you.
Love, Rose

 

[stovebolts]

From my studies of Jewish Rabbis on the topic of the Nephilim, the answer is a mixed bag.
Nobody knows for sure how to translate it so everyone simply gives their opinion.

I have questions about them being angels.
Why are they giants?
Are any angels in the Bible who have appeared to people been any bigger than anyone else?
And angels "appear" as people.
Does that mean they can reproduce?

If this is your stand, you need to answer these questions with scripture.

While I agree it is a mixed bag between the Rabbi's, I believe we can enter into their discussions and learn much from them.

I believe I can show how some well known Rabbi's view this topic from both sides as well as answering the questions you posed. Unfortunately I'm heading out of town for a week. So, if you will be patient with me until I return, I'd really like to discuss this topic further.

Grace and Peace.

Rashi, Ramban and Eliezer are three of the biggest powerhouses when it comes to discussing this matter:

Rashi notes:
The Nephilim: [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22 and Targum Jonathan).

Rashi leans to the side of the Nephilim being angelic using talmudic sources while Ramban makes a reasoned response based on the language why the Nephilim were humans in great authority who caused the nations to sin aka fall.

 

[tim-from-pa]

One thing I found in the book of Enoch is that he reprimands these fallen angels for taking on wives when they were not supposed to and said almost the same thing that Jesus said that they were not to marry (these fallen angels wanted intercession from him).

Yessir, it sure does say that, and it certainly came to mind as I was answering allenwynne, but he asked for scripture so I didn't mention it.

I think the thing to consider, Edward, when we do a bible study such as this, is to use apocryphal sources as a guidance of how they interpreted certain phrases. That's why I also brought this up --- not because I believe Enoch is necessarily scripture, but because it shows that there's a certain amount of latitude in the way they understood the phrase Jesus stated about not marrying or given in marriage.

Since it introduces doubt, then a person using only the bible cannot prove with that passage alone that angels cannot mate. If they want to prove it, they have to find another biblical passage.

 

[JohnD]

Noah being perfect in his generations was a way of saying he was genetically pure. The sons of God took whichever daughters of men they chose... could be fallen angels' cohabitation with human females as some interpret... or it could be demon-possessed males' cohabitation with women. In either case it produced unnatural offspring. Noah and his family were pure from this genetic corruption.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=92945]allenwynne[/MENTION]

1.Why are they giants?
Rashi notes:
The Nephilim: [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22 and Targum Jonathan).

They were called Nephilim because they fell, and they caused the world to fall. Thus, they were giants. Now then, does giant pertain to physical size, or could it be that giant points to their persuasion or influence ? Would it be fair to say that Bill Gates was a giant in the software industry? How about Steve Job's? Together, aren't they giants in the sense that they've taken technology to a whole new level to the point where it's changed the culture? However, they are not Giant's in the sense of the Nephilim, for they didn't cause the world to fall... And fall from what? a life of goodness which resulted in total wickedness.

2.Are any angels in the Bible who have appeared to people been any bigger than anyone else?
Not that I'm aware of. I'm thinking of the Angels who visited Abraham, and then Lot. Or the Angel of the Lord whom Jacob wrestled with. And then there is the Angel who visited Mary.

3.And angels "appear" as people.
Yes, please see above where Angels visited Abraham and then Lot.

4.Does that mean they can reproduce?
None of it supports the idea either for or against reproduction. However, I believe that Angels were created very differently than humans, for Angels have no soul. And what is a soul? In Jewish thought, a living soul is something that has breath and breaths. So yes, animals have souls for they were all created from the dust of the earth and each takes a breath to survive. Not to confuse us with animals, we have God's divine breath which was breathed into us through our creator. In short, we are divine dirt clods lol! On the contrary, Angels have no soul... they do not require a breath, nor do they have a breath.

If you mate a dog and a cat, no offspring would be produced. All during human existence there has been such a vile sin as bestiality and as a kid growing up in the Northwest, we would often make crude jokes of lonely Montana Sheep herders. However, nowhere would you find Sheeple, unless otherwise metaphorical.

How then is it we could believe Angelic beings could take human form to the extent that they could reproduce with humans? Are we to believe we share their DNA and that we are of the same "Kind" aka Family?

When we look at the creation account, each "Kind" was told to be fruitful and multiply and by design, different "Kinds" by design can mate, but they can't "Be fruitful and multiply"> To say that Angels and Humans can "Be fruitful and multiply" is to say that Humans and Angels are of the same "Kind", yet we know this not to be the case for Angels have no soul...

 

[Sinthesis]

[MENTION=92945]allenwynne[/MENTION]

1.Why are they giants?
Rashi notes:
The Nephilim: [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22 and Targum Jonathan).

They were called Nephilim because they fell, and they caused the world to fall. Thus, they were giants. Now then, does giant pertain to physical size, or could it be that giant points to their persuasion or influence ? Would it be fair to say that Bill Gates was a giant in the software industry? How about Steve Job's? Together, aren't they giants in the sense that they've taken technology to a whole new level to the point where it's changed the culture? However, they are not Giant's in the sense of the Nephilim, for they didn't cause the world to fall... And fall from what? a life of goodness which resulted in total wickedness.

Thanks for pointing out the etymology of the word nephilim. Now I can't get the phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" out of my head.:D

As for the hypothetical existence of angel/human hybrids, notice that God never repents of creating nephilim, only men and animals. As we shouldn't attribute creative power to anyone but God, this suggests that the nephilim are in fact only men.

 

[stovebolts]

As for the hypothetical existence of angel/human hybrids, notice that God never repents of creating nephilim, only men and animals. As we shouldn't attribute creative power to anyone but God, this suggests that the nephilim are in fact only men.

That's a very observant view of the Scriptures. Thank's for catching that and bringing it forward!

 

[stovebolts]

They were called Nephilim because they fell, and they caused the world to fall. Thus, they were giants. Now then, does giant pertain to physical size, or could it be that giant points to their persuasion or influence ? Would it be fair to say that Bill Gates was a giant in the software industry? How about Steve Job's? Together, aren't they giants in the sense that they've taken technology to a whole new level to the point where it's changed the culture? However, they are not Giant's in the sense of the Nephilim, for they didn't cause the world to fall... And fall from what? a life of goodness which resulted in total wickedness.

Interesting. I'm trying to wrap my mind around this that they were not giants of great size, but of great influence as you say...but then I can't reconcile the scripture in Numbers which does say "...of great size..." which is listed below. Could you expound on this a bit more Stovebolts so that I may be able to understand this?

Numbers 13: 26-33

26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 They gave Moses this account: “We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit. 28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan.â€

30 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, “We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.â€

31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We can’t attack those people; they are stronger than we are.†32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.â€/

I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative, but this scripture seems pretty plain to me that they were of great size. ??

Hi Edward,

First off, I want to say that I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to see the scriptures the way I see them. What I am trying to do is bring meaningful dialog to the text and to articulate myself in a manner that even if you or others don't agree with me, you will at least be able to see my perspective.

It seems your stuck on what you've bolded. Let me copy it here and give some thoughts.

All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.â€/

There are two types of people being spoken about..
1, All the people they saw were of great size
2. They saw the Nephilim (Descendants of Anak).

28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.

29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

A simple reading of Chapter 13 makes this very clear. Thus, not all of the people they saw were Descendants of Anak (Nephilim)

If we move up to verse 22, it tells us who the Nephilim are: 22 And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

And this is in agreement with the verse you posted: 33 And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

And who are the sons of Anak? AKA Nephilim; Verse 22 Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak,

Clearly, not "All" the inhabitants of Hebron were Nephilim, but rather, only the sons of Anak were considered Nephilim.

Now then, here is your homework. Who is Anak? From where did he come from?

As a side note:

Joshua 15:14 And Caleb drove thence the three sons of Anak, Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak.

Well, I'll give you the answer to the homework... This is from the Family Bible Notes:

Joshua 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

And who was Arba? The "Father" of Anak. (Much in the same way Abraham was the Father of Israel)

Joshua 15:13 And unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron.


We see Kirjatharba aka Hebron earlier in Scriptures.
Genesis 23:2 And Sarah died in Kirjatharba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her.

I know it's not well articulated on my part, but I believe all the piece are here help bring about a broader understanding of the passage your wrestling with.

 

[stovebolts]

Forgot to comment on this:

We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

The key is "seemed". This is an exaggeration on their behalf.