Bible Study Noah's Generations

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION]

If I say, "Ive got the weight of the world on me". What does that mean?

If I say, "It seems to me that I can't do anything right, I'm a looser". What does that say about my esteem?

If I say, "I'm a looser, and they think the same about me." How do I know that's what they think about me?

Let's look at that verse again:

We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, Talk about some great self esteem huh?

and we looked the same to them.” If they were "from a distance" as you've stated, how would they know the thoughts of those "from a distance"?

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION],

You seem to be linking "All the people were of great size" with the Nephilim.

Not all the people were Nephilim. Please read chapter 13. The scouts went thought Canaan and only found the Nephilim in Hebron. Not only that, but we have the geneology of the Nephilim.

Who are the Nephilim?
Numbers 13:22 and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak

The Children of Anak were the Nephelim.
Numbers 13:28 and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the Nehpilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim:

And who is Anak?
Joshua 21:11 And they gave them the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron, in the hill country of Judah, with the suburbs thereof round about it.

So we see that Arba is the "Father" of Anak. By Father, it does not mean his daddy. Abraham is the "Father" of the Jews in the same way Arba is the Father of Anak.

We can trace Arba all the way back to Genesis which I've already done.

So we see that according to Scripture, the Nephilim are from the genealogical line of Arba.

Now then, what does Scriptures say about this man Arba? Is Arba a "Giant" aka Nephilim?

Joshua 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

Arba is a Great Man according to Scriptures. He is not refered to as a Nehpilim. Why do you think that is?

 

[King James]

StoveBolts,

I do agree that the lines start to get blurred at some point if some that are talked about are Nephilim or just giant people since the word Nephilim stops being used. That is why I don't like the translation word Giants for the word Nephilim since no one can see the change point. The YLT is also annoying translating Nephilim to The Fallen Ones in Genesis, and then Nephilim to Giants in Numbers. I've checked an interlinear and it starts to become up for interpretation, at least to a novice like me. I have some files attached to look at.

 

[King James]

And two more files to look at.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm getting to that, you give me a lot to read. A question first...are the children of Anak, the Anakites?

The children of Anak are Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai. The "Children", and I use this term loosley of Arba would be the Anakites aka Anakims.
Joshua 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

Kind of like how Kirjatharba is now known as Hebron. It's goofy if you ask me. How does Arba become known as an Anakim? It just goes to show how the Jewish mind works...

Deuteronomy 1:28 Whither shall we go up? our brethren have discouraged our heart, saying, The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven; and moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakims there.

Again, we see that those in Canaan were "Greater and Taller" than the Israelites. In addition to this, they also saw the sons of the Anakims. I believe the next verse clears this up.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.

We see the Emims great and tall, just as the Anakims. The Emims were also counted as giants, but here the word giant is not Nephilim (strongs 5303) , it's rapha (strongs 7497) Incidentally, the two words have no etymological connection.
Strongs 7497
or raphah {raw-faw'}; from 7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant:--giant, Rapha, Rephaim(-s).

From the above passage, we see that the Emims and Anakims were viewed by the spies as Great and Tall, as Rapha. However, if we look at the Nephilim, scriptures give their very names in Numbers 13:22 b Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai,. These are the sons of Anak Numbers 13:33 b And there we saw the Nephelim, the sons of Anak.

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts,

I do agree that the lines start to get blurred at some point if some that are talked about are Nephilim or just giant people since the word Nephilim stops being used. That is why I don't like the translation word Giants for the word Nephilim since no one can see the change point. The YLT is also annoying translating Nephilim to The Fallen Ones in Genesis, and then Nephilim to Giants in Numbers. I've checked an interlinear and it starts to become up for interpretation, at least to a novice like me. I have some files attached to look at.

I agree. Vic (A previous Admin) used to say, "A servant is never greater than it's master" and how this applies is that our english bibles are a translation of an original language. Thus, the translation is serving the original Hebraic manuscript, it is not usurping it.

 

[stovebolts]

So, would that be a yes or a no to my question? :dunno

It's not really a yes or no question.

 

[stovebolts]

It's not really a yes or no question.

I thought it was. Sort of like the descendants of Caan were Canaanites, so is is a reasonable assumption tha the children of Anak, the Anakites? Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing, I just wondered.

Most make the same mistake with the Keenites...

BTW, the Children of Abraham were known as Israelites, and we know Jacob's name was changed to Israel and Jacob's Dad was Isaac, while Jacob's "Father" was Abraham.

 

[stovebolts]

Most make the same mistake with the Keenites...

Ok brother, I understand. So where did the Anakites come from?

and what does the term 'Taller' really mean in the deuteronomy passage you quoted?

I think it's pretty safe to say that taller means taller, though I have not looked the word up. I am curious why you ask. Is there something you know about this word that you'd like to share?

As far as the Anakites, I've never had a need to really delve into them. What we do know from the Scriptures (KJV) I've posted so far is that Joshua 14:15 "Arba was a great man among the Anakims." When I read, Joshua 14:15 "the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba" I'm placing Arba somewhere within the time frame of Abraham (Genesis 23:2) Father being used in the same sense as Genesis 32:9. Additionally, Joshua 21:11 "Arba the father of Anak" and Numbers 13:22 "Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak"

Do you have anything to add?

 

[Sinthesis]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION],

You seem to be linking "All the people were of great size" with the Nephilim.

Not all the people were Nephilim. Please read chapter 13. The scouts went thought Canaan and only found the Nephilim in Hebron. Not only that, but we have the geneology of the Nephilim.

Who are the Nephilim?
Numbers 13:22 and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak

The Children of Anak were the Nephelim.
Numbers 13:28 and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the Nehpilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim:

And who is Anak?
Joshua 21:11 And they gave them the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron, in the hill country of Judah, with the suburbs thereof round about it.

So we see that Arba is the "Father" of Anak. By Father, it does not mean his daddy. Abraham is the "Father" of the Jews in the same way Arba is the Father of Anak.

We can trace Arba all the way back to Genesis which I've already done.

So we see that according to Scripture, the Nephilim are from the genealogical line of Arba.

Now then, what does Scriptures say about this man Arba? Is Arba a "Giant" aka Nephilim?

Joshua 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

Arba is a Great Man according to Scriptures. He is not refered to as a Nehpilim. Why do you think that is?

Arba was a great man, possibly a contemporary of Abram, though I suspect a predecessor, who had not 'fallen' into depravity as his three 'nephilim' descendants had 400+yrs later.

I'm also considering another interpretation where Arba is not just one individual man.

 

[stovebolts]

Arba was a great man, possibly a contemporary of Abram, though I suspect a predecessor, who had not 'fallen' into depravity as his three 'nephilim' descendants had 400+yrs later.

That's pretty much the line I've been going down.

I'm also considering another interpretation where Arba is not just one individual man.

That's an interesting take! I'd like to know more about that just because I haven't stumbled across that yet.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus

I agree with the fact that not every "giant" is considered or was apart of the nephilim descendant. Today we still have very large "giant" men in comparison to the average height of a man. However, the nephilim is suggested by many because of the Hebrew verbal root n-ph-l "fall." That basically the Nephilim are perceived as "those that cause others to fall". In the passive usage of this root word, it would basically read "one who is fallen" so the question is, fallen from what? Mankind has fallen because of sin in the world, so we know it probably doesn't mean fallen as mankind as fallen.

 

[stovebolts]

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus

I agree with the fact that not every "giant" is considered or was apart of the nephilim descendant. Today we still have very large "giant" men in comparison to the average height of a man. However, the nephilim is suggested by many because of the Hebrew verbal root n-ph-l "fall." That basically the Nephilim are perceived as "those that cause others to fall". In the passive usage of this root word, it would basically read "one who is fallen" so the question is, fallen from what? Mankind has fallen because of sin in the world, so we know it probably doesn't mean fallen as mankind as fallen.

Rashi notes:
The Nephilim: [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ)

It is not simply, "Because they fell", but also, "Caused the world to fall".

We know this in today's nomenclature as systemic sin which is why teachers will be judged differently than the student and not all sins are treated the same.

Men of great stature, power and authority have come and gone many times over since Adam's disobedience. None of them compare to the Nephilim of Noah's day which caused God to destroy all but 8 with a flood.

Ironically, when Mose's scouts reported that there were "Nephilim" in Canan, it was clear they were full of fear to the point where they would rather wander the desert than enter into the Promised land which brings me to this. Could they have really been "Nephilim"? If "Nephilim" means, "To fall, and to cause the whole world to fall", then why did they "Fall" under Joshua's sword? If they were truly Nephilim, they would have caused the whole world to fall....

 

[stovebolts]

I can't help but to think that the great size was to mean of tallness and not of great mental stature?

Perhaps it's a bit of both.

However, not all tall people are of great mental stature and not all people of great mental stature are tall. Likewise, not all tall people, even as tall and great as the trees with great mental stature are "Nephilim".

I keep to the thought of remaining open minded, and consider that I may be wrong in this, yet I feel as if you should take this position also, which seems to be a difficult thing for you to do at times.

I am open to many things and I have studied this subject in times past and have come to the conclusions I have expressed in previous posts. I do not believe I have been rude in expressing my conclusions and I believe I have stayed close to the scriptures, which lends to a good bible study. That I disagree with the idea that the Nephilim are the offspring of fallen angels who had sex with human women does not mean I am not open to discussing the matter from a scriptural point of view. In short, this discussion has been going on for thousands of years and we are simply entering into a continuing conversation about it. What is important is that we stay within the scriptures and dialog about the scriptures in a respectful manner toward one another.

 

[stovebolts]

"To fall, and to cause the whole world to fall", then why did they "Fall" under Joshua's sword? If they were truly Nephilim, they would have caused the whole world to fall....

Are we forgetting the mighty power of the Lord here, perhaps?

The mighty power of the Lord caused a flood to cover the entire earth leaving only 8 behind to inhabit the entire earth because the Nephilim caused the whole world to fall, which in part is what the word "Nephilim" means.

Post flood, who are called the Nephilim and by whom are they called Nephilim?

 

[Sinthesis]

Arba was a great man, possibly a contemporary of Abram, though I suspect a predecessor, who had not 'fallen' into depravity as his three 'nephilim' descendants had 400+yrs later.

That's pretty much the line I've been going down.

I'm also considering another interpretation where Arba is not just one individual man.

That's an interesting take! I'd like to know more about that just because I haven't stumbled across that yet.

Basically my idea is that because "arba" means fourth, and can also mean four, "Arba" is not one man, but four great men whose association set apart and gave name to the city Kirjath-arba(city of Arba)(city of Four), which later became Hebron(association).

The four men in association are the Hebrew Abram, and the Amorite brothers Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. Their alliance kept the land from war until provoked by the war of four kings against five kings, at which point Abram, in league with the three Amorites, rose to pursue and defeat Chedorlaomer. Melchizedek, king of Salem, thought enough of their victory to come out to congratulate them. Abram refused tribute from Sodom, but allowed His colleagues to accept it, which probably contributed to the Amorites eventual downfall.

While Abrams descendant Israel left for Egypt to escape famine, the Amorite descendants stayed to fill their inequity. As the nation of Israel returned from captivity they found the descendants (Sheshai, Ahiman, Talmai) of the old allies of Abram (Mamre, Eshcol, Aner) intimidating in power, but fallen into depravity. Therefore the now fallen Amorites(nephilim) were to be judged by God through the Israelites for their transgressions.

 

[stovebolts]

Arba was a great man, possibly a contemporary of Abram, though I suspect a predecessor, who had not 'fallen' into depravity as his three 'nephilim' descendants had 400+yrs later.

That's pretty much the line I've been going down.

I'm also considering another interpretation where Arba is not just one individual man.

That's an interesting take! I'd like to know more about that just because I haven't stumbled across that yet.

Basically my idea is that because "arba" means fourth, and can also mean four, "Arba" is not one man, but four great men whose association set apart and gave name to the city Kirjath-arba(city of Arba)(city of Four), which later became Hebron(association).

The four men in association are the Hebrew Abram, and the Amorite brothers Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. Their alliance kept the land from war until provoked by the war of four kings against five kings, at which point Abram, in league with the three Amorites, rose to pursue and defeat Chedorlaomer. Melchizedek, king of Salem, thought enough of their victory to come out to congratulate them. Abram refused tribute from Sodom, but allowed His colleagues to accept it, which probably contributed to the Amorites eventual downfall.

While Abrams descendant Israel left for Egypt to escape famine, the Amorite descendants stayed to fill their inequity. As the nation of Israel returned from captivity they found the descendants (Sheshai, Ahiman, Talmai) of the old allies of Abram (Mamre, Eshcol, Aner) intimidating in power, but fallen into depravity. Therefore the now fallen Amorites(nephilim) were to be judged by God through the Israelites for their transgressions.

That is very interesting and actually makes sense. I'm going to ponder that a bit more but I don't see any issues with this line of thought. Very intriguing indeed!

 

[King James]

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah, Noah was a righteous man he was perfect in his generations; Noah walked with God.
The word in question is generations, which you correctly identified as being plural. Lets look at the next verse:
Genesis 6:10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Wouldn't a plain reading of the scriptures simply point to Shem, Ham and Japheth? This certainly would agree with grammer rules and as far as DNA, Shem, Ham and Japeth certainly shared Noah's DNA.

I'll agree to disagree. The pureness is only about Noah's lineage. The bible doesn't specify his wife, sons, or his sons wives. In an extra-biblical book it says Noah's wife is an Enoch descendant. No where else.

 

[stovebolts]

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah, Noah was a righteous man he was perfect in his generations; Noah walked with God.
The word in question is generations, which you correctly identified as being plural. Lets look at the next verse:
Genesis 6:10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Wouldn't a plain reading of the scriptures simply point to Shem, Ham and Japheth? This certainly would agree with grammer rules and as far as DNA, Shem, Ham and Japeth certainly shared Noah's DNA.

I'll agree to disagree. The pureness is only about Noah's lineage. The bible doesn't specify his wife, sons, or his sons wives. In an extra-biblical book it says Noah's wife is an Enoch descendant. No where else.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing at all.

As I've told others, it's when one's interpretation of a passage pits one group of people higher as another. For example, the Mormons us their own book and combined with the Bible and their book they deem that the mark of Cain is seen clearly through the Negros. In their eyes, Negro's bear that mark and as such, blacks are not allowed to hold any office within the Mormon community simply because they are looked upon as lessor in stature.

Likewise, I've heard people say that if a big man with six fingers or six toes came into their church, they would have suspicions over them, as the Nephilim have no place in heaven. Thus, it could be said that a big man with six fingers of six toes would be looked down on based on his physical traits and in my book, that's discrimination.

To finish my rant, I can say that I've seen seasoned Christians who thought higher of themselves than they should to where it is reminiscent of a Pharisees who stands on a corner praying, "Thank you God for not making me like the prostitute or tax collector", in which the Pharisees completely lost his mission for God, which was to be a light, not bring more darkness into the world.

In short, we can agree to disagree over the matter of interpretation, but I think I've made it clear where the line should be drawn on the matter and I would caution anyone from crossing that line.... Not because I have Admin as my title because that has NOTHING to do with it. But rather it's biblical to judge a man from his outward appearance.

Grace and Peace [MENTION=91037]King James[/MENTION]

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION] ,
Yup, we live in the good old US of A where everyone is allowed to hold their view. We have the KKK who openly discriminate against Negro's simply because they are black and btw, they use biblical passages to support their view. We also have the Aryan Nation who believe in White supremacy which of course is their God given right. So yes, everyone is allowed their right to have and hold their own opinion... Even the Mormons have a right to their own opinions in regard to Negro's.

But just because somebody has the right to an opinion doesn't mean their opinion is biblically correct. The KKK uses the Bible to discriminate against Negro's as does the Mormon church and the Aryan Nation uses the Bible to discriminate against anyone who isn't white. Still doesn't make it right.

In your example about a big man in a red jacket coming into your service for the first time when an alert has been raised on an escaped prisoner, one ought to be cautious. However, to discriminate against a big man with six fingers who shows up at your church because one is "cautios" because he might be a Nephilim is about as crazy as the KKK, Mormon's or Aryan Nation discriminating against blacks because they are black.

If we are teaching that Nephilim are Big people with 6 fingers or 6 toes and we ought to be caution of anyone who matches that discription... then may God have mercy on our soul.